Why have Arsenal always been tight

[LDB]

No you pay your ticket prices to watch the best football in Europe

I suppose it is slightly open to debate but pretty hard to argue against in principle.

in a state of the art stadium,

Fact

challenging for the title most seasons,

I concede this one is heavily open to intepretation.

never failing to qualify for the champs league

Fact

or get past the group stages.

Fact

Quite the condensation from on high I would say. But again, short of hitting the phone boxes at Kings Cross on my lunch break, not much else would turn me on in the day. So I like it. But you must be willing to accept it back.

Or you could just call everyone who disagree's with you a wanker. Either way is good.

Hardly condensation from on high, more an alternative argument grounded in my intepretation of the wider facts.

Everyone who disagrees with me? I suppose we differed in our intepretation of the context of 'bro' in your sentence, but other then that I thought my reply quite clearly seperated the 'bro' issue from the 'AFC' issue?

But fine, if you didn't mean for the bro to be condescending then I will think no more of it and in that case Im sorry for calling you a wanker.

[franksav63]

Im not seeing it. I suggested somebody vote with their wallet if they dont feel they're getting value for money wit the club before making it perfectly clear that I wasn't questioning their love of the club, just questioning their interpretation of our current situation.

I dont see how that is talking down to anybody. You calling me bro on the other hand served no other purpose then to talk down to me. But please carry on, your antics are taking me all the way back to primary school. Simpler times.

You know what? I actually use the word bro an awful lot. On here, in the real world, at home. I alternate between bro, bud, son, pal. It is a common theme in my posting. I certainly had no intention to talk down to you using it. Well only the first time. The rest was pure unadulterated smack talk.


I don't think all you did was suggest someone vote with their wallet.

Your direct response to someone with a legitamte grievance, wether you agree with it or not was

No you pay your ticket prices to watch the best football in Europe in a state of the art stadium, challenging for the title most seasons, never failing to qualify for the champs league or get past the group stages.

Quite the condensation from on high I would say. But again, short of hitting the phone boxes at Kings Cross on my lunch break, not much else would turn me on in the day. So I like it. But you must be willing to accept it back.

Or you could just call everyone who disagree's with you a wanker. Either way is good.

Hmmm... couldn't we start an Online Gooner Bro thread in the basement to rival the *word censored* one????

[hatemanu99]

Our club is run by a prudent set of businessmen, whatever else you may say about them. It is quite plausible that City or Chelsea won't exist in 20 years. Even United and Liverpool, although less likely with their history/fan base.

Those who think there would be a queue of investors willing to buy United probably wouldn't know a set of accounts from their own arse. Why would any rational human being take ownership of anything which required more expenditure on debt interest than income it could generate? Only frivolous billionaires with nothing better to do would even consider it. Hicks and Gillett have been trying to offload Liverpool for a couple of years now with no success. This is Liverpool, a club steeped in history and tradition few clubs in the world can match.

The success at United was built up by probably the greatest manager ever to have lived, from scratch. Not billions of pounds belonging to someone else. OK they had a decent enough global attraction from the 60's but they had to work damn hard to create the superpower they now are. And it's all down to Ferguson creating a winning team and global brand from a set of kids.

Ferguson was almost sacked in around 1990 or slightly before. But the club believed in his vision and allowed him to rebuild the club. Wenger's task has been made all the more difficult by the stadium move and the amount of money now in the league. But he's already proved himself with the trophies he's won. We've gone 6 years without the title. United went 26. TWENTY SIX! That's longer than many people on this site have been alive!

Too many people want success yesterday. Likely because they get bored and support another team or another sport. We've been spoilt by our success. I'd rather maintain the current business model and be champions in a couple of years, than win it now and risk relegation/liquidation down the line. Although I do agree there must be SOME money to spend this month, there's no point trying to compete with City and Chelsea for overpriced players. Would anyone buy an Adebayor for £25m?

[Number 5]

Ok this is the thing for me and I reckon a lot of the other "negative" guys round here.

Two of the facts you list have what I think is a direct impact on the issue you see as open to interpretation.

never failing to qualify for the champs league

or get past the group stages.

4th being the new 1st and all leaves this one, the most important one in my eyes, where it is. One shot in 5 years.

challenging for the title most seasons,

As long as the PL holds 4 spots for CL qualification any progression past the group stages is going to be seen as successful in the eyes of the board and manager. This will mask the shortcomings in the team. A massive example of this would be the way we were comprehensively dismantled by Man U in the CL semi last year. A feat many will have you believe counts as success. But the real reality of that is quality additions were/are needed to the first XI to avoid such a repeat in this years group stage. And if they don't happen anyone paying top dollar for a seat at AG is entitled to question why the fuck not.

Again if a straw poll was held amongst supporters regarding paying the highest prices for little sucess or staying at Highbury and challenging as we were, in all honesty LDB, how close do you think that vote would be?

In isolation all your points may seem a well judged interpretation but put all together and coupled with the final sentence you made regarding some people on here defying reality just to be negative puts a certain emphasis on you believing your opinion must be the right one. Ergo a certain condesending tone.

[hatemanu99]

Quite the condensation from on high I would say. But again, short of hitting the phone boxes at Kings Cross on my lunch break, not much else would turn me on in the day. So I like it. But you must be willing to accept it back.

Or you could just call everyone who disagree's with you a wanker. Either way is good.

How the fuck did the process of water vapour forming a liquid come into this discussion? Have I missed an important point? Is our state of the art stadium falling to pieces like a 70's bathroom with inadequate grouting?

[littlefire]

Quite the condensation from on high I would say. But again, short of hitting the phone boxes at Kings Cross on my lunch break, not much else would turn me on in the day. So I like it. But you must be willing to accept it back.

Or you could just call everyone who disagree's with you a wanker. Either way is good.

How the fuck did the process of water vapour forming a liquid come into this discussion? Have I missed an important point? Is our state of the art stadium falling to pieces like a 70's bathroom with inadequate grouting?

Well now that you mention it - the other day against Everton, even though we sit deep undercover of the roof, snow was falling on my head....

[flash gunner]

It is an embarassing argument to suggest manure chavski or mousers wont be around in twenty years, of course they will. The board seem to have sold some of you the concept that you are shareholders. You are not. The turnover and profit does not affect you. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. Before you scream Leeds and Pompey at your computer and give yourself a coronary while stroking the AFC quarterly returns, I would like to point out that there is a middle ground. Its not so much middle ground actually. Leeds/Pompey and the financing of the manure debt occupies the 1% ground of scandalous financial management.

I think there is a (relatively) rough time ahead for football but suggesting 2-3 quality signings (30-40 million) is far from putting us into the Nick Gleeson category

We have made a transfer profit each year for five years. Surely even the most evangelical amongst the AKB can see the balance between youth development and quality acquisitions has been a little off? As evidence look at the fact that we were tragically outplayed by manure in the CL semi and Chelsea spanked us at home. The c**t Evra can feel justified in men against boys comments.

Rather than worrying about whether the flats will sell, it is more appropriate to ask if Huntelaar will come or why didn't we go for Given. We are football fans after all

Fucking great post CC.....

See how none of the rosetinters have attempted to argue/answer this Thats it lads ignore it and you dont have to face the truth

[hatemanu99]

It is an embarassing argument to suggest manure chavski or mousers wont be around in twenty years, of course they will. The board seem to have sold some of you the concept that you are shareholders. You are not. The turnover and profit does not affect you. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. Before you scream Leeds and Pompey at your computer and give yourself a coronary while stroking the AFC quarterly returns, I would like to point out that there is a middle ground. Its not so much middle ground actually. Leeds/Pompey and the financing of the manure debt occupies the 1% ground of scandalous financial management.

I think there is a (relatively) rough time ahead for football but suggesting 2-3 quality signings (30-40 million) is far from putting us into the Nick Gleeson category

We have made a transfer profit each year for five years. Surely even the most evangelical amongst the AKB can see the balance between youth development and quality acquisitions has been a little off? As evidence look at the fact that we were tragically outplayed by manure in the CL semi and Chelsea spanked us at home. The c**t Evra can feel justified in men against boys comments.

Rather than worrying about whether the flats will sell, it is more appropriate to ask if Huntelaar will come or why didn't we go for Given. We are football fans after all

Fucking great post CC.....

See how none of the rosetinters have attempted to answer this :roll:

I don't consider myself a rosetinter but I have attempted a response to this a few posts above this one.

I do believe we should sign someone, but I also believe the market is inflated and that the club remains constrained by the stadium move. Once the debt is paid in full I think we'll see a lot more being spent, and I'm willing to wait until this happens. Ticket prices are indeed an absolute joke but unfortunately it goes with the territory of building a new stadium. That we've managed to do that within a stone's throw of Highbury has been brilliant and more so when you look at where other clubs have had to move to, but to do it while maintaining the degree of competitiveness we have is quite simply a miracle, and down to Wenger and Wenger alone. That is a fact.

My understanding is City don't own their stadium. Hull and Stoke experienced big downturns before their new stadia were able to provide the income needed to propel them forwards, same with Bolton. Coventry and Southampton clearly suffered following their moves. Can't think of anyone who has done anything near what we have done. So whoever said the club lacks financial ambition earlier in this thread is also, I believe, misguided.

[lowerwest]

Clearly we are budgeted for 4th so in that respect this season we are over acheiving. What about a long range forecast..are the next 5 years going to bring the same great style,lots of plaudits and bugger all end product. How many of our fans would accept that this is the rule of thumb for the Arsenal...finances stretched but turning a profit,transfers out continue to make money and transfers in minimal. I personally think the last 5 years have been very frustrating in that on a number of occasions we failed to kick on and instead we faded into obscurity. No we dont think we have a diving right like Man U and lately Chelsea but we should be competive. Come early May i dont think we will be able to say we are.

[marcengels]

I don't consider myself a rosetinter but I have attempted a response to this a few posts above this one.

I do believe we should sign someone, but I also believe the market is inflated and that the club remains constrained by the stadium move. Once the debt is paid in full I think we'll see a lot more being spent, and I'm willing to wait until this happens. Ticket prices are indeed an absolute joke but unfortunately it goes with the territory of building a new stadium. That we've managed to do that within a stone's throw of Highbury has been brilliant and more so when you look at where other clubs have had to move to, but to do it while maintaining the degree of competitiveness we have is quite simply a miracle, and down to Wenger and Wenger alone. That is a fact.

My understanding is City don't own their stadium. Hull and Stoke experienced big downturns before their new stadia were able to provide the income needed to propel them forwards, same with Bolton. Coventry and Southampton clearly suffered following their moves. Can't think of anyone who has done anything near what we have done. So whoever said the club lacks financial ambition earlier in this thread is also, I believe, misguided.

The club has money - the transfer "account". Money generated through selling players. The constraint arguement is not relevant at the point..

It is not a miracle that we are where we are. We have, I think, the third highest wage bill in the country, and therefore one of the highest in Europe. We charge one of the highest prices in world football for tickets. Coupled with one of the best managers in the world = expectation of challenging for major honours. So, if you think we are challenging then we are meeting ecpectationd and if you don't think we are not challenging, over this last period, then we are under-achieving.

[flash gunner]

It is an embarassing argument to suggest manure chavski or mousers wont be around in twenty years, of course they will. The board seem to have sold some of you the concept that you are shareholders. You are not. The turnover and profit does not affect you. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. Before you scream Leeds and Pompey at your computer and give yourself a coronary while stroking the AFC quarterly returns, I would like to point out that there is a middle ground. Its not so much middle ground actually. Leeds/Pompey and the financing of the manure debt occupies the 1% ground of scandalous financial management.

I think there is a (relatively) rough time ahead for football but suggesting 2-3 quality signings (30-40 million) is far from putting us into the Nick Gleeson category

We have made a transfer profit each year for five years. Surely even the most evangelical amongst the AKB can see the balance between youth development and quality acquisitions has been a little off? As evidence look at the fact that we were tragically outplayed by manure in the CL semi and Chelsea spanked us at home. The c**t Evra can feel justified in men against boys comments.

Rather than worrying about whether the flats will sell, it is more appropriate to ask if Huntelaar will come or why didn't we go for Given. We are football fans after all

Fucking great post CC.....

See how none of the rosetinters have attempted to answer this

I don't consider myself a rosetinter but I have attempted a response to this a few posts above this one.

I do believe we should sign someone, but I also believe the market is inflated and that the club remains constrained by the stadium move. Once the debt is paid in full I think we'll see a lot more being spent, and I'm willing to wait until this happens. Ticket prices are indeed an absolute joke but unfortunately it goes with the territory of building a new stadium. That we've managed to do that within a stone's throw of Highbury has been brilliant and more so when you look at where other clubs have had to move to, but to do it while maintaining the degree of competitiveness we have is quite simply a miracle, and down to Wenger and Wenger alone. That is a fact.

My understanding is City don't own their stadium. Hull and Stoke experienced big downturns before their new stadia were able to provide the income needed to propel them forwards, same with Bolton. Coventry and Southampton clearly suffered following their moves. Can't think of anyone who has done anything near what we have done. So whoever said the club lacks financial ambition earlier in this thread is also, I believe, misguided.

I understand what youre saying and they are good points but if you read CC's post he says that we arent asking for massive investment in the team, 2 or 3 players would give us a kick onto the next level now and with minimal risk!!! and from our sales of players over the last 3-4 years and flats plus TV money and prize money for the competitions we have failed in (still sizable chunks of cash for failure) it should be possible

[hatemanu99]

I don't consider myself a rosetinter but I have attempted a response to this a few posts above this one.

I do believe we should sign someone, but I also believe the market is inflated and that the club remains constrained by the stadium move. Once the debt is paid in full I think we'll see a lot more being spent, and I'm willing to wait until this happens. Ticket prices are indeed an absolute joke but unfortunately it goes with the territory of building a new stadium. That we've managed to do that within a stone's throw of Highbury has been brilliant and more so when you look at where other clubs have had to move to, but to do it while maintaining the degree of competitiveness we have is quite simply a miracle, and down to Wenger and Wenger alone. That is a fact.

My understanding is City don't own their stadium. Hull and Stoke experienced big downturns before their new stadia were able to provide the income needed to propel them forwards, same with Bolton. Coventry and Southampton clearly suffered following their moves. Can't think of anyone who has done anything near what we have done. So whoever said the club lacks financial ambition earlier in this thread is also, I believe, misguided.

The club has money - the transfer "account". Money generated through selling players. The constraint arguement is not relevant at the point..

It is not a miracle that we are where we are. We have, I think, the third highest wage bill in the country, and therefore one of the highest in Europe. We charge one of the highest prices in world football for tickets. Coupled with one of the best managers in the world = expectation of challenging for major honours. So, if you think we are challenging then we are meeting ecpectationd and if you don't think we are not challenging, over this last period, then we are under-achieving.

I wasn't aware there was a 'transfer account' - what we make from whatever source goes towards our financial commitments, largely the debt. I was led to believe there was a clause in the banking documents that facilitated the loan for the stadium to the effect that a certain % of any transfer income had to be reinvested in the team. You would think this meant buying new players but Wenger's approach has been to reward existing players. Now I agree with everyone who says this loyalty to his players is excessive. Especially when you see Walcott buyng his Mrs a Ferrari she doesn't want while sitting on the treatment table endorsing childrens' books.

In any case, I think you've missed my point. We pay those massive tickets prices etc precisely because we have such a large debt and are committed to paying it off, and in the future we should see that money being reinvested in the team through player acquisitions. Of course that's just my belief. But currently yes, we are constrained by the debt. The club are fortunate to be situated amongst affluent surroundings and in close proximity to the City, and with the season ticket waiting list this justifies that price on a business level.

I don't understand your last sentence (in bold). Makes no sense at all.

[augie]

Hatemanu99, I just want to address a few points you made in your first post -

1. Hicks and gillette have been unable to sell the club cos no bugger is sure if the club is for sale, at what price etc cos these two clowns cant seem to agree on anything - it appears if one of them attempts to look at other managers the other one naturally claims that rafa is one of the top 5 managers in the world No interested bidder will go in and attempt to negotiate while that shit goes on

2. You refer to manu being the superpower they are not and point to the hard work in took them to get here but that totally ignores the fact that back in the 80's they were spending more in transfer fee's than nearly everybody else so they were not doing it on the cheap. Yes the transfer fee's back then were way smaller but then again so were ticket prices and everything is relative. Anyway the point is that you are being very selective if you choose to ignore their spending history

3. Some people keep equating our demands for investment with an expectation of success now but that is not the way it is as far as I am concerned anyway. What I want is for the players, manager and the club in general to do everything possible to bring that success and I believe that bringing in proven quality where necessary would fall under that remit. If they all the above do everything possible and we still dont win any trophies then I will happily accept that cos there are not enough trophies out there for everybody to win one but believe me by wenger and the club not bringing in players where necessary (a good keeper for starters) we cannot say that we are doing all we can to win. Again I feel the need to clarify that we aint looking for billions to be spent but there are players out there that are available (huntellar on loan for example) and failing to do the necessary will result in the same outcome as two seasons ago where it all looked so promising at this stage but fell apart when it mattered most

[hatemanu99]

It is an embarassing argument to suggest manure chavski or mousers wont be around in twenty years, of course they will. The board seem to have sold some of you the concept that you are shareholders. You are not. The turnover and profit does not affect you. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. Before you scream Leeds and Pompey at your computer and give yourself a coronary while stroking the AFC quarterly returns, I would like to point out that there is a middle ground. Its not so much middle ground actually. Leeds/Pompey and the financing of the manure debt occupies the 1% ground of scandalous financial management.

I think there is a (relatively) rough time ahead for football but suggesting 2-3 quality signings (30-40 million) is far from putting us into the Nick Gleeson category

We have made a transfer profit each year for five years. Surely even the most evangelical amongst the AKB can see the balance between youth development and quality acquisitions has been a little off? As evidence look at the fact that we were tragically outplayed by manure in the CL semi and Chelsea spanked us at home. The c**t Evra can feel justified in men against boys comments.

Rather than worrying about whether the flats will sell, it is more appropriate to ask if Huntelaar will come or why didn't we go for Given. We are football fans after all

Fucking great post CC.....

See how none of the rosetinters have attempted to answer this :roll:

I don't consider myself a rosetinter but I have attempted a response to this a few posts above this one.

I do believe we should sign someone, but I also believe the market is inflated and that the club remains constrained by the stadium move. Once the debt is paid in full I think we'll see a lot more being spent, and I'm willing to wait until this happens. Ticket prices are indeed an absolute joke but unfortunately it goes with the territory of building a new stadium. That we've managed to do that within a stone's throw of Highbury has been brilliant and more so when you look at where other clubs have had to move to, but to do it while maintaining the degree of competitiveness we have is quite simply a miracle, and down to Wenger and Wenger alone. That is a fact.

My understanding is City don't own their stadium. Hull and Stoke experienced big downturns before their new stadia were able to provide the income needed to propel them forwards, same with Bolton. Coventry and Southampton clearly suffered following their moves. Can't think of anyone who has done anything near what we have done. So whoever said the club lacks financial ambition earlier in this thread is also, I believe, misguided.

I understand what youre saying and they are good points but if you read CC's post he says that we arent asking for massive investment in the team, 2 or 3 players would give us a kick onto the next level now and with minimal risk!!! and from our sales of players over the last 3-4 years and flats plus TV money and prize money for the competitions we have failed in (still sizable chunks of cash for failure) it should be possible

I'm with you essentially mate. We could do with a striker certainly and also a keeper. I'm just pointing out that the club don't have as much as the press say we have to spend. The accounts could easily paint that picture to keep the banks happy (pure speculation on my part). I don't think we can afford 3 players. I'd take Foster if he's going for £4m. Or just be done with Al and give Fabianski a chance and give Chesney more experience.

The flat sales are being over-egged by someone somewhere, because I live there and it's fairly empty.

[clockendal]

Hatemanu99, I just want to address a few points you made in your first post -

1. Hicks and gillette have been unable to sell the club cos no bugger is sure if the club is for sale, at what price etc cos these two clowns cant seem to agree on anything - it appears if one of them attempts to look at other managers the other one naturally claims that rafa is one of the top 5 managers in the world No interested bidder will go in and attempt to negotiate while that shit goes on

2. You refer to manu being the superpower they are not and point to the hard work in took them to get here but that totally ignores the fact that back in the 80's they were spending more in transfer fee's than nearly everybody else so they were not doing it on the cheap. Yes the transfer fee's back then were way smaller but then again so were ticket prices and everything is relative. Anyway the point is that you are being very selective if you choose to ignore their spending history

3. Some people keep equating our demands for investment with an expectation of success now but that is not the way it is as far as I am concerned anyway. What I want is for the players, manager and the club in general to do everything possible to bring that success and I believe that bringing in proven quality where necessary would fall under that remit. If they all the above do everything possible and we still dont win any trophies then I will happily accept that cos there are not enough trophies out there for everybody to win one but believe me by wenger and the club not bringing in players where necessary (a good keeper for starters) we cannot say that we are doing all we can to win. Again I feel the need to clarify that we aint looking for billions to be spent but there are players out there that are available (huntellar on loan for example) and failing to do the necessary will result in the same outcome as two seasons ago where it all looked so promising at this stage but fell apart when it mattered most

Do you not think that's what they are doing though ? I mean you have mentioned that you beleive we should we should bring in players in certain positions and that's a point not many could argue with.

The thing is it's not your's or mine or anyone else's beleifs that really matter it's AW's. And I am sure he beleives he is doing everything possible to win something, whether that proves to be enough at the end of the season remains to be seen and he has said himself judge him then.

If he hasn't then I imagine this forum will explode in a mass of