As we're unlikely to see terraces again at football, this is the virtual equivalent where you can chat to your hearts content about all football matters and, obviously, Arsenal in particular. This forum encourages all Gooners to visit and contribute so please keep it respectful, clean and topical.
From the start of the season I was, and still am, opposed to this formation. Back then I had many a row on here with some cos I will always claim the system to be more 4-5-1 than 4-3-3 but either ways the system sucks Imo this formation was brought in for 2 reasons -
1. Song is not mobile or physical enough to play DM in a 4-4-2 so wenger decides to change the system to suit him instead of upgrading the player in the DM position.
2. We have too many similar players who all want to play in the same positions and make the same runs Nasri, rosicky and arshavin all would prefer to play centrally if they had their way but cesc is already in that spot so wenger tries to come up with a system to accomodate these other guys and ends up putting square pegs in round holes
Personally I would have opted for the 3-5-2 formation myself when we still had senderos as our 3rd centre back cos clichy for one is more a wing back than a left back. This system would also allow wenger to play 3 centrally to compensate for the lackings in our DM department plus it would also allow arshavin to finally play in his proper position off the main striker a la Bergkamp. Simples
franksav63 wrote:We should never play a 4-5-1 at home, although you would think a 4-5-1 would give better cover for the full backs, it certainly didn't yesterday, especially down our left flank.
It could also be a personnel problem, I don't think you can play Rosicky, Nasri and Arshavin in the same team, especially with a non tackling, non tracking back, midfield player in Denilson.
So yes, bring back a 4-4-2, please.
Wenger has never played 4-5-1. Never. Let alone at home. If anything it's 4-1-5. The 3 up top won't be found anywhere near our penalty area for any part of the game. 4-3-3 works in theory, but only if you don't allow your defensive midfielder and centre-backs to go marauding up the pitch trying to score. And only if you have a proper striker but that's not the main problem for us. United's second goal was beautiful but it was prompted by Gallas trying to dribble through 3 defenders in their box. I mean what the fcuk is he doing there? Doesn't help that again Denilson rolled out a red carpet a la Stoke and escorted Rooney into that space. The 'cover' player at the back also needs to have at least one ounce of defensive brainpower, which Clichy clearly doesn't if you look at Park's goal, and as for Eboue falling on his arse later in the game.......
I think the basic idea of 4-3-3 is right and going forward, has hardly let us down, but there is a glaring weakness defensively. If the wingers don't track and the dm's don't go wide, our fullbacks get isolated. When Sagna, whose form can be patchy, is on form then the right is safe enoughbut at leftback... the choice is a poor Clichy and two young fullbacks, the attacking Traore and the more defensively sound Gibbs. Both will have patchy form, make mistakes and need to learn positioning, they will need help when picked, which they don't always get. There is also of course the issue of Almunia being our number 1 with his deputy being the talented but erratic Fabianski
Our big problem is something that will happen if we play 4-3-3, 3-5-2, 4-4-2 or 2-3-5. When we defend in numbers from open play we are reasonably secure but other times...We don't seem to organise well to defend set plays. We also throw men forward when going forward and that isn't a bad thing in itself but we need to make sure that we have at least 2 players back when we have a set play, 3 in open play. Against Man and several others, we have left 1 back or had 2 but one of them challenged for the ball and failed making it opposition v defender anyway. When we push people forward, the keeper and the experienced players (Gallas, Vermalenn, Silvestere, Sol, Sagna) must ensure enough stay back so that if we are broken against, the rearguard can buy time. We also need those up the pitch to race back, not stroll back. Denilson gets it in the neck for it but everybody else seems to do the same, strolls back and of our midfielders, only Song ever seems to continue the stroll when he gets to the box, the rest pull up outside it. Wenger and his coaching staff must sort this out
While I admit it's not a solid 4-5-1 and interchangeable, when Alumunia is 'kicking' (and I use this term very loosely) up front from a backpass with an oppo player closing him down, Arshavin is the furthest player at the front end, so has no chance of claiming the ball, and possession is given easily away.
Players like Nasri and Rosicky hardly ever give our full backs any cover because their first instincts are to cut in-field, leaving the opposition to make hay down our flanks.
While I admit it's not a solid 4-5-1 and interchangeable, when Alumunia is 'kicking' (and I use this term very loosely) up front from a backpass with an oppo player closing him down, Arshavin is the furthest player at the front end, so has no chance of claiming the ball, and possession is given easily away.
Players like Nasri and Rosicky hardly ever give our full backs any cover because their first instincts are to cut in-field, leaving the opposition to make hay down our flanks.
I don't disagree with that at all. But I think we've proved we can still score frequently with that line-up. Where we have been shocking is in our defensive duties in my opinion.
While I admit it's not a solid 4-5-1 and interchangeable, when Alumunia is 'kicking' (and I use this term very loosely) up front from a backpass with an oppo player closing him down, Arshavin is the furthest player at the front end, so has no chance of claiming the ball, and possession is given easily away.
Players like Nasri and Rosicky hardly ever give our full backs any cover because their first instincts are to cut in-field, leaving the opposition to make hay down our flanks.
I don't disagree with that at all. But I think we've proved we can still score frequently with that line-up. Where we have been shocking is in our defensive duties in my opinion.
It's when the goals dry up, is when we're most vunerable, because with these players and the make up of the side, we are always likely to concede these days.
franksav63 wrote:We should never play a 4-5-1 at home, although you would think a 4-5-1 would give better cover for the full backs, it certainly didn't yesterday, especially down our left flank.
It could also be a personnel problem, I don't think you can play Rosicky, Nasri and Arshavin in the same team, especially with a non tackling, non tracking back, midfield player in Denilson.
So yes, bring back a 4-4-2, please.
Wenger has never played 4-5-1. Never. Let alone at home. If anything it's 4-1-5. The 3 up top won't be found anywhere near our penalty area for any part of the game. 4-3-3 works in theory, but only if you don't allow your defensive midfielder and centre-backs to go marauding up the pitch trying to score. And only if you have a proper striker but that's not the main problem for us. United's second goal was beautiful but it was prompted by Gallas trying to dribble through 3 defenders in their box. I mean what the fcuk is he doing there? Doesn't help that again Denilson rolled out a red carpet a la Stoke and escorted Rooney into that space. The 'cover' player at the back also needs to have at least one ounce of defensive brainpower, which Clichy clearly doesn't if you look at Park's goal, and as for Eboue falling on his arse later in the game.......
Never ?? Were you in cardiff the day we robbed the mancs in the fa cup final cos I was and I can tell you with 100% certainty that he played a lone striker (Bergkamp) that day In fact wenger actually came out after the game and said that the system had not worked well and he would not be doing it again.
However if you check back to our run to the champs lge final the following season and I believe that you will find yet more examples of wenger playing 4-5-1 especially away from home.
There is too many bullshit excuses for wenger amongst fans - with any other manager this formation would be called 4-5-1 but cos wenger is such a swashbuckling type of manager then it must be 4-3-3 Simple fact is that rather than buy a couple of more defensive minded players or actually coach the existing players more defensive responsibility wenger will put an extra body in midfield to try and mask these weaknesses.....it hasnt worked
franksav63 wrote:We should never play a 4-5-1 at home, although you would think a 4-5-1 would give better cover for the full backs, it certainly didn't yesterday, especially down our left flank.
It could also be a personnel problem, I don't think you can play Rosicky, Nasri and Arshavin in the same team, especially with a non tackling, non tracking back, midfield player in Denilson.
So yes, bring back a 4-4-2, please.
Wenger has never played 4-5-1. Never. Let alone at home. If anything it's 4-1-5. The 3 up top won't be found anywhere near our penalty area for any part of the game. 4-3-3 works in theory, but only if you don't allow your defensive midfielder and centre-backs to go marauding up the pitch trying to score. And only if you have a proper striker but that's not the main problem for us. United's second goal was beautiful but it was prompted by Gallas trying to dribble through 3 defenders in their box. I mean what the fcuk is he doing there? Doesn't help that again Denilson rolled out a red carpet a la Stoke and escorted Rooney into that space. The 'cover' player at the back also needs to have at least one ounce of defensive brainpower, which Clichy clearly doesn't if you look at Park's goal, and as for Eboue falling on his arse later in the game.......
Never ?? Were you in cardiff the day we robbed the mancs in the fa cup final cos I was and I can tell you with 100% certainty that he played a lone striker (Bergkamp) that day :roll: In fact wenger actually came out after the game and said that the system had not worked well and he would not be doing it again.
However if you check back to our run to the champs lge final the following season and I believe that you will find yet more examples of wenger playing 4-5-1 especially away from home.
There is too many bullshit excuses for wenger amongst fans - with any other manager this formation would be called 4-5-1 but cos wenger is such a swashbuckling type of manager then it must be 4-3-3 :roll: Simple fact is that rather than buy a couple of more defensive minded players or actually coach the existing players more defensive responsibility wenger will put an extra body in midfield to try and mask these weaknesses.....it hasnt worked :roll:
I agree Bergkamp was isolated but that was more apparent because Rooney and Ronaldo tore up to pieces that day. The 2 'extra' midfielders were Pires and Reyes if I remember rightly? Hardly defensive players.
In the champs league again I don't believe it was a true 4-5-1.
Even United on Sunday wasn't a true 4-5-1. Nani doesn't defend. But Rooney is so strong and hard-working that it can work. Park is also a bit of an unsung hero in my opinion. Nothing much to watch but his workrate is exceptional. Denilson could learn a thing or two from him.
augie wrote:Your last paragraph confuses me - it seems that it is about manure's tactical formation ahead of ours :?
Yes it was sorry. Guess my point is teams rarely ACTUALLY play 4-5-1. United in my view played more of a 4-3-3 but Park's workrate allowed their midfield to nullify our short passing game in that area of the pitch.
Imo this formation was brought in for 2 reasons -
Nasri, rosicky and arshavin all would prefer to play centrally if they had their way but cesc is already in that spot so wenger tries to come up with a system to accomodate these other guys and ends up putting square pegs in round holes 
