Arsene Wenger and Youth: IS IT WORKING?

[arseofacrow]

So going back to the thread title - No its not working

[franksav63]

So going back to the thread title - No its not working

[highburyJD]

compared to Barca - not even close
compared to other Prem teams we're doing pretty well
WestHam probably the only domestic ones ahead of us now the late 90's ManUre generation are retiring

Cesc and Ca$hley walk into every team in the world - not youth developments responsibility we lost them
Wilshere can reach that kind of level
3 world class products in the last decade is very good

[arseofacrow]

Cesc- not produced by us

Cole - yes

Wilshire - not yet, might be.

[flash gunner]

compared to Barca - not even close
compared to other Prem teams we're doing pretty well
WestHam probably the only domestic ones ahead of us now the late 90's ManUre generation are retiring

Cesc and Ca$hley walk into every team in the world - not youth developments responsibility we lost them
Wilshere can reach that kind of level
3 world class products in the last decade is very good

Cesc is borderline at best as a product of our youth develpment. So of all the hundreds of players we have brought through in the last 10 years the best we have is Cashley and an emerging Wilshere and the rest are rarely even premiership standard i wouldnt say that it was showing much at all apart from the ability to pay for itself by selling these average footballers. That cant be the purpose of a youth system?

When you consider as a club we are thought of as developing youth its a big fucking myth mate we develop shit

[highburyJD]

ok then I'll qualify Barca's youth success - the brought in Puyol and Iniesta just like we bought in Cesc

[SteveO 35]

Surely the point of the youth set-up to start with is to develop top class talents that feed your own first team squad with a reasonable rate of breakthrough. I would say this is even more the case for a club like ours where youth development, rightly or wrongly, is more heavily invested in than the majority of European clubs.

You go back to the days of Adams, Merson, Parlour, Rocastle, Thomas, Davis etc and there was a regular production line of players that made it through to the first team and went on to have a significant impact, winning trophies and becoming established first team and often international players.

With the exception of Ashley Cole and Jack Wilshere that has not happened at Arsenal in the last decade. Perhaps Szezcny will follow suit but we don't know that yet

Is it really enough to mitigate it by looking at people like Seb Larsson, Jerome Thomas, Ratface Bentley, Sidwell etc, and saying that they have had reasonable careers elsewehere. Do we invest millions in youth investment to produce players for Blackburn, West Brom and Reading ?

We all accept there is a high fall out rate, but we are supposedly the biggest club in the biggest city in Europe - quite a draw for youth talent. But when are we going to produce a homegrown striker in the way that the Mickeys did with Owen and Fowler, or how Everton did with Rooney?

My other question is how clubs like West Ham and Southampton seem capable of producing players that have immediate realisation values of £10m+, whilst we seem incapable of doing that with treble the resources to spend on scouting, coaching and academies? How can Southampton develop Oxlade-Chamberlain, Bale and Walcott within 3-5 years, and yet we try and fail persistently with the likes of Vela, Wellington, Randall, JET, Nordtveit etc.

What did Sidwell, Bentley, Aliadiere, Jerome Thomas, Larsson etc all move on for in terms of fees? I didn't see a queue of buyers as there were for the Southampton players talking £10m and upwards. If someone else then develops them into more valuable players do we take the credit for that?

[arseofacrow]

ok then I'll qualify Barca's youth success - the brought in Puyol and Iniesta just like we bought in Cesc

then at least that would be accurate

[flash gunner]

ok then I'll qualify Barca's youth success - the brought in Puyol and Iniesta just like we bought in Cesc

Who cares about Barca?

[highburyJD]

we made really good money on ratface
a million here and there on the rest

but Barca are the only team I can think of who have a successful team with majority youth team players. Its hardly easy if nobody else is doing it.

[flash gunner]

we made really good money on ratface
a million here and there on the rest

but Barca are the only team I can think of who have a successful team with majority youth team players. Its hardly easy if nobody else is doing it.

No one says its easy but at what point do you say it isnt working? As you seemed proud to say earlier it pays for itself by selling the likes of Crowe for a million or so but that cant be the purpose of it. 1 world class player (cashley) in 10 years with a massive prospect (Wilshere) coming through with the rest barely premier league standard doesnt look like a successful youth academy to me

[Juan]

I'd suggest that Wenger is more suited to completing a player's development, rather than bringing them through the academy system from start to finish.

Vieira, Henry, RVP were all around 20/21 when we signed them and then developed into top-class players (or at least helped to realise their potential).

At least when players in their late teens, early 20s are signed we can be a little more confident with them making the grade, at the very least know that they are very close to full physical development.

Wenger's obsession with getting players in at an even younger age essentially reduces it to a lottery as there are far fewer certainties in terms of their development.

What did Sidwell, Bentley, Aliadiere, Jerome Thomas, Larsson etc all move on for in terms of fees?

In fairness we did OK out of Bentley, he went to Blackburn for about £2.5m, but we had a 50% sell on when he moved to Sp*rs, so we made about £10m off the back of him

There is a very good point made in Kevin Whitcher/Alex Flynn's book that essentially our youth system is geared towards money making. OK we might not be selling many youngsters for big bucks, but we do make a profit on the sales. I'm sure that keeps the accountants happy, but again it highlights the club putting profits before performance.

[brazilianGOONER]

I'd suggest that Wenger is more suited to completing a player's development, rather than bringing them through the academy system from start to finish.

Vieira, Henry, RVP were all around 20/21 when we signed them and then developed into top-class players (or at least helped to realise their potential).

At least when players in their late teens, early 20s are signed we can be a little more confident with them making the grade, at the very least know that they are very close to full physical development.

Wenger's obsession with getting players in at an even younger age essentially reduces it to a lottery as there are far fewer certainties in terms of their development.

What did Sidwell, Bentley, Aliadiere, Jerome Thomas, Larsson etc all move on for in terms of fees?

In fairness we did OK out of Bentley, he went to Blackburn for about £2.5m, but we had a 50% sell on when he moved to Sp*rs, so we made about £10m off the back of him

There is a very good point made in Kevin Whitcher/Alex Flynn's book that essentially our youth system is geared towards money making. OK we might not be selling many youngsters for big bucks, but we do make a profit on the sales. I'm sure that keeps the accountants happy, but again it highlights the club putting profits before performance.

excellent post juan.

we're supposed to use the money generated from selling youth prospects into buying proven quality to 'fill the voids' in the first team, which would make a lot of sense.

so far, what we do is sell everyone, keep the profit and tell the supporters to fuck themselves.

[highburyJD]

we made really good money on ratface
a million here and there on the rest

but Barca are the only team I can think of who have a successful team with majority youth team players. Its hardly easy if nobody else is doing it.

No one says its easy but at what point do you say it isnt working? As you seemed proud to say earlier it pays for itself by selling the likes of Crowe for a million or so but that cant be the purpose of it. 1 world class player (cashley) in 10 years with a massive prospect (Wilshere) coming through with the rest barely premier league standard doesnt look like a successful youth academy to me

Penant, Thomas, Bentley, Sidwell, Volz all must have made 100+ prem appearances
Bothroyd has played for England
they aren't/weren't 'barely' prem standard
(BTW forgot Senderos, we counting him as a youth product?)

out youth setup has undeniably flattered to deceive - strong performances in the league cup havent been converted into first team players

I expect Wilshere and Szcz to be 1st team for years to come
let's hope le Coq or Frimpong can take the step up to join them

3 first team youth products would be the best in the league, wouldn't it...?

[kiwomya]

Surely the point of the youth set-up to start with is to develop top class talents that feed your own first team squad with a reasonable rate of breakthrough. I would say this is even more the case for a club like ours where youth development, rightly or wrongly, is more heavily invested in than the majority of European clubs.

You go back to the days of Adams, Merson, Parlour, Rocastle, Thomas, Davis etc and there was a regular production line of players that made it through to the first team and went on to have a significant impact, winning trophies and becoming established first team and often international players.

With the exception of Ashley Cole and Jack Wilshere that has not happened at Arsenal in the last decade. Perhaps Szezcny will follow suit but we don't know that yet

Is it really enough to mitigate it by looking at people like Seb Larsson, Jerome Thomas, Ratface Bentley, Sidwell etc, and saying that they have had reasonable careers elsewehere. Do we invest millions in youth investment to produce players for Blackburn, West Brom and Reading ?

We all accept there is a high fall out rate, but we are supposedly the biggest club in the biggest city in Europe - quite a draw for youth talent. But when are we going to produce a homegrown striker in the way that the Mickeys did with Owen and Fowler, or how Everton did with Rooney?

My other question is how clubs like West Ham and Southampton seem capable of producing players that have immediate realisation values of £10m+, whilst we seem incapable of doing that with treble the resources to spend on scouting, coaching and academies? How can Southampton develop Oxlade-Chamberlain, Bale and Walcott within 3-5 years, and yet we try and fail persistently with the likes of Vela, Wellington, Randall, JET, Nordtveit etc.

What did Sidwell, Bentley, Aliadiere, Jerome Thomas, Larsson etc all move on for in terms of fees? I didn't see a queue of buyers as there were for the Southampton players talking £10m and upwards. If someone else then develops them into more valuable players do we take the credit for that?

Youth development has dramatically changed since the days of Rocastle and Parlour. I don't think it's a comparison that can be used nowadays. Football changed.

It's a tough one and I don't think it's a process that's as easy as it seems. A lot of those players may have turned into top class talents for Arsenal but they were up against some of the best players in the world at the time. Look at the players Arsenal had during the years Sidwell, Thomas & Bentley were at Arsenal. The fact Spurs spent 16M on Bentley and Chelsea snapped up Sidwell shows some of the potential they had. Aliadiere just never did it - no excuse there.

In fairness how often to the Owens and Rooney's come up? Look at the state of the England front line to see that!