When will enough be enough?

frankbutcher · Post by **frankbutcher** » Thu May 17, 2012 10:44 pm

Some of us of have had it with the current situation. Others seem to be waiting for this Summer to pan out. The rest seem to have an un-swerving faith as long as Wenger is in place. But when will enough be enough for you?

slag · Post by **slag** » Thu May 17, 2012 10:45 pm

when I die

MegaGooner · Post by **MegaGooner** » Thu May 17, 2012 10:57 pm

I thought the poll would be about if we had enough of the bankers "iswe Ngerm enta.." threads

You don't seem to have an opinion on any of these Mr. Banker

Post by **QuartzGooner** » Thu May 17, 2012 11:48 pm

We are locked into Wenger until 2014.
For richer for poorer, for better or for worse, etc.

clockender1 · Post by **clockender1** » Fri May 18, 2012 12:10 am

for me, its if he doesn't do anything about the midfield this summer.

if he doesn't, i suspect that come October /November we could be sitting in 6th or 7th and last years public dissent will escalate much more.

If tomorrows Telegraph is correct, then RvP is right to see who they sign first - I would.

and if with that pressure hanging over them, they STILL don't someone to protect the back four then he might as well leave.

Sutch · Post by **Sutch** » Fri May 18, 2012 12:24 am

I remember questions like this being asked about five years ago. He should have gone in the summer of 2008, how the fuck could it be so easy to go backwards from then?

Babatunde · Post by **Babatunde** » Fri May 18, 2012 1:33 am

This RVP situation is fascinating and at the same time, shocking.

I think it is high time the Arsenal fans turned massively on Arsene Wenger.

Think about this: over the past 7 trophyless, fruitless years, we have lost a series of top class players. And the reason each and every one of them left?

Because they needed to fulfill ambitions Wenger could not match.
What is even more disgusting is that the team keeps losing captains. Think of the calibre of player Arsenal have lost:

Vieira demanded better players as he could see the club on a slippery slope of mediocrity. Wenger told him he knew best, and Vieira was off - what have we won since? Patrick did well for himself thereafter...

Thierry Henry, also a captain, had a meeting with Wenger where he urged him to sign a winger and publicly pleaded for help up front in attack. We ended up losing Henry, who went on to win the CL. We on the other hand, have won fuck all, still. Your ST prices have gone up though...

Later, Cesc Fabregas sat down with Wenger, after years of dragging an awful team by the scruff of the neck and demanded to know what the plans were for player recruitment. Wenger insisted he would bring in the quality of player required - Fabregas returned a world champion, to find he was going to be sharing a dressing room with Shitachi and Chamakh.

Samir Nasri, for all the abuse thrown his way, also wanted to win trophies and made it clear to Wenger that if better players were not brought in, he would depart. It's ok though because 'he only went for the money', and not that nice Premier League trophy he now has at home, and those top class players he plays alongside eh?

And now we get to Van Persie.

Let no imbecile even try and make out that this is about money. If it was about money, RVP would simply go on strike and force the move. Wenger is a weak bastard, the second Anelka made life tough for him, he couldn't handle it. When Cesc sulked, he was always going to sell. RVP wants to stay and win at Arsenal. This is a captain who has grown up at the club for 8 years, someone who has been around so is the kind of player we need to keep.

Arsenal keep losing top player, after top player and yet one bad lingering smell remains: Arsene Wenger.

Every time the fans try to make out the players leaving are mercenaries or bastards - completely ignoring the litany of mercenaries currently milling around at Arsenal, getting paid for nothing. When was the last time Almunia even started a game? Why has he not left to find playing time? Chamakh? Diaby? Shitachi? Denilson? Flapianski?

If RVP goes - and he is going - it is time for the fans to turn massively on Arsene Wenger. Backing Wenger serves absolutely no purpose. Think about this: since we lost all those players, what have we won? Has Wenger been proved correct? Want to know WHY we keep losing these players?

Because Wenger's egotistical bullshit fantasy project is more important than him swallowing his pride, showing some humility, and actually doing what the rest of the world can see needs doing. Oh no not the great Arsene Wenger. He will not bow to the great unwashed peasantry that pay his £7.5 mil wages.

It truly is amazing that Arsenal fans continue to back this idiot Wenger. Of course the irony is, that they slate players like Fabregas for leaving and calling him all sorts....but Fabregas earns less at Barca than he did at Arsenal!

And that Wenger wow soooo loyal. How much does loyalty cost again these days? £7.5 mil is that?

WHEN are Arsenal fans going to fucking realise that this man is damaging the club? Look at the calibre of player we continue to lose year, after year. It then makes it harder to attract real quality, which subsequently means the team gets progressively shitter b y the year!

Oh well. Renew those juicy STs and meberships, and enjoy watching Gervinho, Joel Campbell, 'new signings' Denilson and Diaby and a rejuvenated Bendtner.

How I look forward to seeing a midfield of Denilson, Song, Diaby and Gervinho next season, with Ramsey as sub.

I have said it millions of times: Arsenal fans will be getting what they deserve for their spinelessness. Not even Spudniks would put up with this bollocks from Wenger. If you don't renew, and stop paying for tickets, soon enough snake oil salesman Gazidis will get the message. Wenger has become bigger than this club - and that in turn has just confirmed what a small club Arsenal have become.

Just sad.

Sutch · Post by **Sutch** » Fri May 18, 2012 1:56 am

I think one explanation is when you see national journalists and well known people involved in football, they're scared of the AKBs. They cannot bear to have these Wenger loving JCLs on their backs. So they back Wenger in order to avoid a witch hunt from the Wenger nazis and keep their public image in good stead. I think the only famous person who has spoken out against Wenger is Piers Morgan several times.

You'd think someone would fucking walk after seven years of failure, not Dear Liar.

Herd · Post by **Herd** » Fri May 18, 2012 3:21 am

Baba ,I see the bile pouring out again but I dont think the fault of non investment lies with Wenger but with the previous administrations parsimonious approach to spending ,and now through the fact that Kroenke has paid too much for his share in the club .
Wenger has many faults but considering the squad we have hes done OK

Regardless though you can blame who ever u like for why we have the weakest squad since the mid 70's but if you think that by getting rid of Wenger we will suddenly go out and spend big then u are dreaming !

stg · Post by **stg** » Fri May 18, 2012 6:51 am

http://www.7amkickoff.com/category/arsenal/

There’s not just one League in England anymore, there are two leagues. Symbiotic leagues which feed off each other, enrich each other, and ultimately enrich the billionaires and millionaires who own, operate, and play in those leagues.

In The League you have 20 teams who play each other home and away, are awarded points for wins and draws, and the club with the most points at the end of the season wins a trophy. That League trophy is one of the most difficult things to get your hands on. In the 20 years that the League has existed just 5 teams have won: Manchester United, Arsenal, Chelsea, Blackburn Rovers, and Manchester City.

In addition to winners, there are losers: and while the winners get a trophy, the losers get kicked out of the League.

There’s also prize money awarded to each team in this League. Each place that a team finishes up the table in the League earns £755,062 cumulative. The winners receive £15m and the losers just £755,000. Already the seeds of inequality are planted. Not only do the losers get kicked out of the League but they receive a pittance in prize money.

This League has, however, a soft spot. There are lucrative domestic and foreign television contracts which are divided equally among all 20 teams to the tune of £32.5m.² In addition, all 20 teams are guaranteed that 10 of their games will be played live on television and thus earn them an additional £5.8m.

Among all of their various prize monies, television contracts, and other awards, the bare minimum that a League team will earn is £39m and the maximum which a team could earn is around £61m.

And if a team is booted out of that League, there’s a “parachute payment” of £15m which is given to teams to help them fight their way back into the League. That parachute payment is reduced the year after their first year of relegation and reduced further the year after that but is still a massive payment considering the fact that the league below The League only pays out an average of £1m in prize monies.

For many teams just being in this League is considered a huge achievement. There are two other competitions, cup competitions, that teams play in at the same time as they participate in the League: the Football Association Cup and the League Cup but more important than winning either of those two competitions is staying in the League. It’s even referred to as “survival” when a team avoids relegation because it’s the difference between life and death for some clubs.

This doesn’t mean that winning the FA Cup or the League Cup is completely without merit. Rather that those trophies are considered “stepping stones” to larger, more important trophies such as winning the League. Winning the FA Cup is a stepping stone, staying in the League is survival.

It’s simple math. The difference between surviving relegation from the League and winning the FA Cup is £25m. That’s £25m the club can spend on upgrading their stadium, on buying players, on training grounds, and on making their club better.

But there’s a second league above this League. A super league if you will. And unlike the League, it’s not friendly, things aren’t shared equally, and there are no parachute payments for relegated teams. It is pure capitalism: the rich get richer, the poor get poorer, and the have-nots are left to rot in the gutter.

Unlike the League, there are 32 teams from the leagues all over Europe and there is no egalitarian home and away play round robin to decide the winners and losers. Teams are only guaranteed 6 games and £6m. In those six guaranteed games there are bonuses that go to teams who win (£700,000 per) or even draw (£350,000 per). Those six games are used to determine who will go into the next round with the top two teams from each group selected to the round of 16. After that, it’s a knockout competition.

Making it to that round of 16 guarantees an additional £2.64m. That round’s prize money alone is more valuable than winning the FA Cup.

The next round is worth £3.3m.

The next round is worth £3.7m.

And if you win, the prize is £7.9m.

The total prize money up for grabs is £363,440,000. But there’s a hidden prize. One more valuable than the prize money. And completely determined by how powerful your league is. This is what this “Champions League” refers to as the “Market Pool”.

That Market Pool prize money is worth £300m and nearly 25% of that money goes to the four teams from The League. And the League winner, the best team in the best league in all the world? The Champions League pays them 8% of the Market Pool money, or nearly £24m. Just for showing up.

All totaled, if a team were to win all 13 of their games in the Champions League and if they were the champions from The League the payout would be £51,477,360.¹ Give or take a few pennies here and there.

Only the top three teams from The League are guaranteed admission to the Champions League. The fourth placed team has to survive a promotion battle between another similarly placed team from a different league in Europe. This is almost exactly the same system that teams from the league below the League use to get into The League.

For a club like Arsenal, who don’t have the backing of a man who is willing to spend £1bn to win the League, achieving third place and thus securing Champions League football is crucial, financially, to ensuring that Arsenal are even remotely competitive in the League. People wonder why Arsene Wenger prioritizes the Champions League over the FA Cup and even more so over the League Cup but it’s really quite simple.

As I illustrated above, almost no team in England would take an FA Cup trophy if it mean that they were relegated from the League because it’s financial suicide. The same applies to the Champions League, except in an even more direct, more cut-throat, more capitalist way: there are no parachute payments to help a team get back into the Champions League.

That’s why Liverpool have struggled for three years to get back in to the Champions League. That’s why Kenny Dalglish was fired. Winning the League Cup is meaningless if you finish 8th to a team like Liverpool who have aspirations of winning the League and getting back into the Champions League. That’s why Arsenal’s 15 consecutive years of Champions League football is a massive achievement. And that is why Arsene Wenger sat on the bench last Saturday, clutching Pat Rice, and looking like a manager whose team was on the verge of relegation.

Because they were.

Times have changed in The League. The old days when winning the FA Cup meant something have all but disappeared. At most it’s seen as a stepping stone to bigger and better things as Manchester City used it last year. But a manager would certainly never risk relegation from the Champions League places to win it.

Remember that next time someone tells you they would rather finish 8th and win the FA Cup: 8th place is relegation.

1. UEFA Champions League Distribution
2. Premier League Prize Money

Enough depends on your view point. Yours, mine or anybody else's maybe diffrent but none are wrong and none are 100% correct

stg · Post by **stg** » Fri May 18, 2012 6:56 am

Regardless though you can blame who ever u like for why we have the weakest squad since the mid 70's but if you think that by getting rid of Wenger we will suddenly go out and spend big then u are dreaming !

the weakest squad since the mid 70's!!!!!!!

I take it thats the 75/76 season where we finished 17th in the league or maybe the 74/75 season when we finished 16th?

SteveO 35 · Post by **SteveO 35** » Fri May 18, 2012 7:47 am

Depends what you mean by when will enough be enough.

If you mean in terms of supporting Arsenal then never. Having a brain that stretches back further than 1996 and having followed the team for more than 30 years, I could never stop supporting them.

However, in terms of 'enough being enough' in terms of lining Kroenke's pockets and spending money on the club then that ship sailed last Summer. As predicted this transfer window is just going to see more of the same i.e. club sells best player, buys replacement for half the price and over-promotes some youngsters to fill the gaping voids apparent to all. I don't see why I should make one of the world's richest men even richer while he bleeds my football club dry and I won't be treated like a mug.

Hopefully that answers the question

Red Member · Post by **Red Member** » Fri May 18, 2012 7:56 am

I have supported Wenger all season on the basis that he was the only person capable of getting us back into the all important top 4 after the shambles of last summer. My view is that Wenger wasn't entirely to blame for last summer. Others will argue differently - fair enough.

anyway he made it back into the top 4- actually we over achieved and finished 3rd!

BUT this is where my support of Wenger can only continue if
a) RVP signs a new contract
b) we buy more world class players eg Podolski

and if we dont then why NOT?!! We finished the leading club in London this season in a year when it has never been cooler to be in London. Every top player in the world should want to come and play for us and if they dont why NOT?!

It is one week since the league finsished, RVP has not signed, it is not looking good. Time is ticking Arsene.

arseofacrow · Post by **arseofacrow** » Fri May 18, 2012 9:09 am

I had enough three years ago. Nothing has changed, and the raison d'etre of this football club is to qualify for the Champions League every year - nothing else. It is set-up to sustain this as much as possible without dropping below the level and risking finishing outside the top 4, but to under invest in top quality so real achievment is never really on the cards.

We are now unfortunately saddled with a huge pile of crap in the squad, and it is vital that most of them are shifted on. To say that Wenger has worked wonders considering the squad is somewhat missing the point.

I believe that due to the policies of the club, fed by both the board and Wenger, that it is unlikely we will seriously challenge again under Wenger. He has been unfortunate with the influx of millions in other clubs, and Financial Fair Play?....I think we're all scepitical about that one. But even if FFP is successful in its aim, I do not believe that Wenger is anymore capable of producing a side to compete both in England and Europe (and his record in the Champions League should be scrutinised considering the teams we had)

Red Member · Post by **Red Member** » Fri May 18, 2012 9:28 am

arseofacrow wrote:I had enough three years ago. Nothing has changed, and the raison d'etre of this football club is to qualify for the Champions League every year - nothing else. It is set-up to sustain this as much as possible without dropping below the level and risking finishing outside the top 4, but to under invest in top quality so real achievment is never really on the cards.

but on the positive side at least we are achieving that. Liverpool aspire to be like us