THE WENGER THREAD

[Clash]

I love the man. He hast turned this club into something people feared, we won trophies that 90% of other supporters will never win, and most of those support big clubs. We have seen some of the worlds best players, some of the best to ever play the game, come and play in front of us - win things with us - and take the Arsenal legacy away with them.

He is a honourable, passionate man who deserves every plaudit he gets. He has more dignity in his right hand than other, more "press savvy" managers will ever have, the press have always hounded him, twisted his words, yet he has stuck with what he believed in. The press always give us no chance, he has proved them wrong and wrong again.

However, whilst i believe he was the right man for the last few seasons, sometimes you have to accept things go stale - i do not buy into the notion that he doesnt care - i think he cares more than any of us on here - which im sure is saying something. I think he loves Arsenal football club and wants the best for it - he has devoted his career to the very thing we love. He hasnt, and doesnt, get it right - but he has got a heck of a lot right - and for that he deserves respect whatever you think of his tenure.

Saturday was toxic, it was awful - and I am not going to defend him, or the club. We have been an embarrasment, shambolic - everything we have taken pride in not associating ourselves with since we were born gooners. Wenger, is VERY culpable, nobody can deny that - he has really, really messed up.

Has his time come to an end? No, because he is still in charge so i have to support him and any player wearing our badge. Do i think its time? YES, my only regret is that he deserves a farewell like Fergie - a proper one where he is shown the respect he deserves. That probably wont happen now, it cant as it stands.

I think there is credit in the notion the club should have stood him down 3-4 years ago with a proper farwell in hindsight, he would get the respect from the club he deserves. This is his own doing, i am aware of that, but there is no malice - he loves this club as we do, he has just unfortunately been left behind a little bit and whilst his intentions are good -there are just too many mistakes now.

I hope and prey we bring in proper players in the next two weeks (i do not think a club like ours should be in this position btw) - and that he can turn this season around, walk away with an FA Cup or something - a farewell for him that i think a man of his stature deserves.

Unfortunately, what i want to happen, and what I think will happen are two very different things.

This is a strange strange time to be a Gooner, eh?

A well expressed post mate. I wish I still had the respect for Wenger that you clearly do but I just haven’t.

Sadly I think that time has shown Wenger doesn’t have the honour, dignity or integrity many of us once thought he had. After the numerous number of debacles we’ve witnessed in the last 5 years, any man of genuine integrity would have resigned by now – or at least offered to.

He says he loves the club – but not enough to do the right thing and walk away. Wenger is loyal but it is really only to himself and his own beliefs. I have no doubt that he does love Arsenal but I am not at all convinced it is in the same way or for the same reasons that us fans love them.

Let’s be clear, Arsenal made Wenger, it was not the other way round as some nauseating people like to tell us. Why wouldn’t he love a club that is paying him a fortune to fulfill his own personal ambitions? Since we moved to the Emirates, Wenger has tried to convince people that what he wanted to do was what also needed to be done. I refuse to accept this as being anything other than a dream of his that he has had for a long time.

Wenger wants to nurture players, watch a team grow, instill a philosophy of his own liking. If there is any evidence to support this it is that he tried the same thing at Monaco. They hadn’t just built a new stadium so in my opinion the whole Emirates / stadium debt thing was a convenient excuse for Wenger to get a second chance at doing what he didn’t get to finish in France.

I have no respect left for him at all because he has not shown enough respect himself. It has to work both ways. Wenger was respectful to begin with but then at the start he had something to prove and there were some strong characters in the dressing room who wouldn’t have tolerated what he has been doing in recent years.

When we left Highbury, Wenger effectively allowed many of our traditions to be left there and created a new culture and new traditions of his own. That is disgraceful and I resent him massively for doing this. It is like he suddenly felt he had earned the right to do things the way he wanted. Maybe it is okay for a manager to impose themselves at a biggish club if that club has a fairly barren history (Birmingham or Sheffield Wed for example) but it is not acceptable to do that at a club such as Arsenal where tradition and history is everywhere and where the clubs place in the game is already established.

As for Wenger deserving a farewell like Ferguson, I would have liked to see that too at one time (even for a while after I first wanted him to go). But I think it is the last thing he deserves right now and I would struggle to applaud him when he does leave. If he does get something like Ferguson got I would probably have to leave the stadium. That might sound ungrateful after what he did in earlier years but I applauded him at the time for those achievements.

The second half of his reign has left a sour taste and rightly or wrongly I feel only bitterness towards him now.

[augie]

Absolutely agree 100% with frank when he answers the what can we do question by stating that we should sack him - why are some continuing to show sentimentality to a man that is dragging our club into this fiasco ? If he did the honourable thing and resigned then I would allow myself to show (some) compassion but as he is refusing to do so, then he is giving up any right to be treated with compassion. Why should he be judged any differently than an over the top player ? We don't have PV4 or TA6 marshalling our team now cos clearly their best days were behind them when they were "eased" out so why should a manager be treated and differently ? I would actually go further than that and say that in Bergkamp's, TA6, Bouldie's and Keowns cases, all realised that they could no longer perform at the required level and walked away - they could have gone to a lower level club/division but they knew that they were not the player they once were and stepped away rather than tarnished their legacy by staying on too long.
It's about time the manager done the right thing and fcuked off out of our club and if he stays in power then he is entitled to feel every bit of bile thrown his way from me and every other right enraged Gooner

[wibble]

I agree with those who say Wenger wants the best for the club but he just isn't the right man for the job anymore and is taking us backwards. As others have said it would have been nice to have given him a proper send off a few seasons back but due to his own stubbornness and mis-guided belief in his youth project (amongst other things) this is no longer possible.

As for the press, I think they have been very fair on the whole. When we were winning trophies and playing entertaining and exciting football, the club and wenger, rightly received the plaudits. Now, we haven't won anything since 05 and Wenger has continually refused to spend money, the press, again quite rightly, are questioning his abilities and suitability to take us forward.

I myself feel the same, i am grateful for the new approaches he brought with him and the trophies he won, whilst playing some amazing football. However, his inability to change has cost us and it's time for him to go. I do not hate the man, but i've gone from being proud that he is our manager and looking forward to hearing what he had to say about the club to now avoiding his interviews as they just get me wound-up. His excuses are embarrassing and his 'internal solutions' and talk of a 'fourth place trophy' are quite frankly ridiculous and once again are an embarrassment to the club and the supporters.

Thanks for the memories Arsene, but it's time to go

[Ed Hunter The Gooner]

John Nicholson in Football365.com

First half of the article just , but then spot on:

"Maybe Arsene Wenger missed his vocation in life as a Chicago blues club hustler because it seems pretty clear that he is trying to pull off the exact same trick as Mack: to deflect criticism and to make himself appear more successful, he redefines whatever he achieves as being successful. So Champions League qualification is a huge achievement, finishing fourth is similarly an impressive feat worthy of its own trophy and now, in defence of not signing players, Wenger is attempting to redefine this failure as a kind of success by claiming that he will not water down the quality of the squad. In the Arsene universe, not signing anyone is doing the club a favour and critics of this policy are irresponsible fools who know nothing.

He's been doing this for years now and it's remarkable how many people go along with it. On Saturday he asked his critics to tell him who he should have signed, claiming he is looking at all the players in the world all the time. Really? So why do so many clubs with less money and status than Arsenal keep buying better players than you have at Arsenal?

He always wants to paint himself and his standards as the gold standard. This is a consequence of the bogus 'Arsene Knows' culture that has grown up over the last 15 years. He still benefits hugely from this but surely it's becoming more and more clear that the emperor has no clothes.

Understandably he's reluctant to buy anyone because so many of his signings turn out to be a waste of time, not quite up to standard, or are just downright okay. He gets things wrong and he wins nothing, so he's been forced to try and sell bad back to us as though it's good, making out that it's amazing they finish in the top four when the world's best players are not available to him.

Wenger has managed to persuade enough people that because it is him in charge then whatever he is doing must be the best thing that could be done and we are stupid to question this. In his world, Arsenal can't compete with the big three above them. But that's not true; they could. What he means is he can't compete. He is merely trying to set his standards as THE standards.

A new man with a good vision and an ability to spot a player could take over the club and make them into league champions. It simply isn't the impossible task that Wenger would claim it to be. They have huge resources available to them. The truth which he's trying to obfuscate is that great players and great prospects mostly don't want to play for Arsenal under Wenger. That's why he can't sign them. He's not being educated and responsible; he's just not being successful.

While other clubs repeatedly unearth and sign really good players in recent seasons, from Yohan Cabaye to Michu to Christian Benteke - the examples are numerous - Wenger seems to be insisting that these players would not have made Arsenal better and signs Chamakh, Gervinho and worse instead.

It seems obvious that Wenger's standards are not good enough for Arsenal but still he holds hypnosis over fans and media. They point to the consistent league finishes as proof of his quality, which is exactly what he wants. But you could easily see this not as consistently high finishing but consistently short of the required standard. If you're so near so often, why have they not progressed? Why is it always the same old story? Why can't they improve? Wenger has warped perceptions so successfully that, like Mack in Chicago, he's managed to make enough people believe that he's a major player when, in reality, it's a charade in order to pretend he's more successful than he really is."

[Clash]

Anybody who believes Wenger prioritizes money over football isn't paying attention

In which way was Wenger was prioritising the football side of things over the summer then? The non-profit tour of Asia where the players only went so they got a footballing education from the likes of Vietnam?

I see a team desperately in need of quality additions, a whole 3 months to have got something done and over £100m in the bank to do it with. Which part has my faulty attention span missed then?

[arseofacrow]

Absolutely agree 100% with frank when he answers the what can we do question by stating that we should sack him - why are some continuing to show sentimentality to a man that is dragging our club into this fiasco ? If he did the honourable thing and resigned then I would allow myself to show (some) compassion but as he is refusing to do so, then he is giving up any right to be treated with compassion. Why should he be judged any differently than an over the top player ? We don't have PV4 or TA6 marshalling our team now cos clearly their best days were behind them when they were "eased" out so why should a manager be treated and differently ? I would actually go further than that and say that in Bergkamp's, TA6, Bouldie's and Keowns cases, all realised that they could no longer perform at the required level and walked away - they could have gone to a lower level club/division but they knew that they were not the player they once were and stepped away rather than tarnished their legacy by staying on too long.
It's about time the manager done the right thing and fcuked off out of our club and if he stays in power then he is entitled to feel every bit of bile thrown his way from me and every other right enraged Gooner

Spot on Augie.

Why the leeway for Wenger when it's already been stretched beyond breaking point? Why the notion that someone that was once successful must always be successful, in every circumstance? The fitness programme, the tactics, the choice and scouting of players, the contracts, the sales. Wenger is guilty, or as guilty as the others. Wenger to go and quickly followed by the owner please.

Mismanagement of the highest order is taking place so even though we have the money (not that difficult for an EPL club of our size), we don't have good structures in place. Complacency, lethargy and comfortable living are the hallmark of Arsenal these days. Unfortunately, it will only be remedied by a clearout and whatever comes with this. I for one am happy to take whatever comes with it but I know many shit their pants at the the thought of not being in the Champions League. Not me.

[Bendtners Drinking Buddy]

I do find it strange that Wenger was always anti long-haul pre season tours, very anti. We had our camp in Austria nobody really knew what went on and that was it.

Football has meant he cannot get his way, the club need the money. He has to accept that, but id love to know what he really thinks, he was so so against them.

He would have done himself a favour by coming out after the game, admitting he got it wrong - and by wrong i mean putting an unfit Cazorla on ahead of Podolski. Not by name, but just held his hands up and said we wernt good enough on the day. The world and his wife could see the Ref was really bad, it WAS a freak game - we lost so many players, the issue is we had shipped out the players we should have in reserve to replace them - Cockles especially could have played the Arteta role with no real problem.

I cannot disgaree that he puts more pressure and invites more problems to himself.

[Clash]

Thanks for the memories Arsene, but it's time to go

I agree with the sentiment but the problem with this quote is that too many of memories are the wrong kind. Saying 'Thanks for the memories' is all very well ... but I also have memories of losing 8-2, losing a 4-0 lead, losing at home to Spurs after leading 2-0, losing to Bradford, losing a cup final to Birmingham etc.

[g88ner]

Anybody who believes Wenger prioritizes money over football isn't paying attention

In which way was Wenger prioritising the football side of things over the summer then? The non-profit tour of Asia where the players only went so they got a footballing education from the likes of Vietnam?

I can't believe you've twisted our Asia tour into an attack on Wenger?

Firstly, all the top clubs go on international tours. United, Chelsea, Liverpool and Citeh all did it, so why single Wenger and Arsenal out?? - it's normal.

Secondly, we were probably the last of the big teams to start touring internationally, and it's common knowledge that that's probably because Wenger preferred a low key training camp in Austria.

I'm all for calling Wenger out for things he's done wrong, but not this.

[arseofacrow]

Anybody who believes Wenger prioritizes money over football isn't paying attention

In which way was Wenger was prioritising the football side of things over the summer then? The non-profit tour of Asia where the players only went so they got a footballing education from the likes of Vietnam?

I can't believe you've twisted our Asia tour into an attack on Wenger?

Firstly, all the top clubs go on international tours. United, Chelsea, Liverpool and Citeh all did it, so why single Wenger and Arsenal out?? - it's normal.

Secondly, we were probably the last of the big teams to start touring internationally, and it's common knowledge that that's probably because Wenger preferred a low key training camp in Austria.

I'm all for calling Wenger out for things he's done wrong, but not this.

Perhaps because he didn't get the business done, which gives off the impression that he couldn't accomplish signings because he was in Asia and prove that men can't multi-task

Anyway, we all know that this is bollocks seeing as he had no intention of signing anyone in the first place.

[wibble]

Thanks for the memories Arsene, but it's time to go

I agree with the sentiment but the problem with this quote is that too many of memories are the wrong kind. Saying 'Thanks for the memories' is all very well ... but I also have memories of losing 8-2, losing a 4-0 lead, losing at home to Spurs after leading 2-0, losing to Bradford, losing a cup final to Birmingham etc.

Which is why he should have left a few years ago before these embarrassments, with a proper send-off and the fans thanks and best wishes.

There are still plenty of happy memories (doubles, invincibles season) but i agree with your point, these memories are getting more and more distant and being replaced with bad memories.

sadly, the second part of the quote is far more pertinent these days.. it is time to go

[g88ner]

Anybody who believes Wenger prioritizes money over football isn't paying attention

In which way was Wenger was prioritising the football side of things over the summer then? The non-profit tour of Asia where the players only went so they got a footballing education from the likes of Vietnam?

I can't believe you've twisted our Asia tour into an attack on Wenger?

Firstly, all the top clubs go on international tours. United, Chelsea, Liverpool and Citeh all did it, so why single Wenger and Arsenal out?? - it's normal.

Secondly, we were probably the last of the big teams to start touring internationally, and it's common knowledge that that's probably because Wenger preferred a low key training camp in Austria.

I'm all for calling Wenger out for things he's done wrong, but not this.

Perhaps because he didn't get the business done, which gives off the impression that he couldn't accomplish signings because he was in Asia and prove that men can't multi-task

Anyway, we all know that this is bollocks seeing as he had no intention of signing anyone in the first place.

Ah, his masterplan - "we would love to spend money, but there's no phone signal in Vietnam"

[Clash]

Anybody who believes Wenger prioritizes money over football isn't paying attention

In which way was Wenger prioritising the football side of things over the summer then? The non-profit tour of Asia where the players only went so they got a footballing education from the likes of Vietnam?

I can't believe you've twisted our Asia tour into an attack on Wenger?

Firstly, all the top clubs go on international tours. United, Chelsea, Liverpool and Citeh all did it, so why single Wenger and Arsenal out?? - it's normal.

Secondly, we were probably the last of the big teams to start touring internationally, and it's common knowledge that that's probably because Wenger preferred a low key training camp in Austria.

I'm all for calling Wenger out for things he's done wrong, but not this.

My point was really that there was really nothing that we saw in the summer which showed us that the football side of things was taking priority over finance. I was mainly referring to lack of transfers but somewhat flippantly referred to the Asia tour because it was so obviously an exercise in manipulation - as it is with the other clubs you mention.

The difference is that those other clubs manage to go on those tours and strengthen their squads if they need to. And do the other CEO's go along with their wives and somewhat oddly appear in the photos the way Gazidis did? I very much doubt it.

As for the low key training camp in Austria, that was largely a waste of time too in my opinion but if deals are being done and the team is being improved for the new season with new signings nobody would care where the club went.

Maybe I'm being petty but petty things can become more of an issue when the basics get neglected.

[A dallying Gus Caesar]

If we get knocked out of the ECL, which is more than likely.
If we then lose at Fulham next week and Spurs the week after, both quite likely then maybe Wenger's time will be up.

[SteveO 35]

Anybody who believes Wenger prioritizes money over football isn't paying attention

In which way was Wenger was prioritising the football side of things over the summer then? The non-profit tour of Asia where the players only went so they got a footballing education from the likes of Vietnam?

I see a team desperately in need of quality additions, a whole 3 months to have got something done and over £100m in the bank to do it with. Which part has my faulty attention span missed then?

More to the point Wenger's bonus scheme is linked more closely to financial reward than footballing success - FACT