Arsene Wenger - What Stage Are You At?

As we're unlikely to see terraces again at football, this is the virtual equivalent where you can chat to your hearts content about all football matters and, obviously, Arsenal in particular. This forum encourages all Gooners to visit and contribute so please keep it respectful, clean and topical.
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What Stage Are You At?

1. He's the best manager around, look at what he's achieved, he's got a job for life.
2
7%
2. We may have slipped a bit but he's still doing a good job with the resources he's got, he'll turn it round in time.
1
3%
3. We're not doing well enough but given what he's done for the club and the circumstances I'm willing to give him another year.
2
7%
4. I've still got respect for the man for what he's done but it's time he went quietly.
9
30%
5. He needs to go at all costs, he's an embarrassment, ruining the legacy he worked so hard to create and more importantly poisoning the club.
16
53%
 
Total votes: 30

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northbank123
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Re: What Stage Are You At?

Post by northbank123 »

Steve_I wrote:
augie wrote:he knows that past successes has bought him god like status with many Gooners which has shielded him from the anger that he would face if he was performing like this at a different club
There's lots of points in the thread above that I want to respond to but here's my thoughts on reading the bold bit above.

At time of writing there are 5 clubs in a better position than us in the PL. There is but one other English club on a par with us in Europe (i.e definitely in last 16). There are 7 teams left in as good a position as us in the league cup...

some of those 13 teams are the same team of course (eg manure in CL and PL) so that leaves a lot by my reckoning who would happily swap places with us and have their manager performing to Arsene's level. Therefore were he performing like this at a different club there may well not be the anger you predict.

Of course I know I am being facetious there but I am trying to make a point that perhaps I don't view Arsene with the same vitriol as a few, the same cynical eye as many or the same frustrated/end of tether viewpoint as most hereabouts because I don't see that we are in as desperate situation as many believe.

It is very hard to put in writing a new argument or view that hasn't already been aired in this forum and shot down.
What's to celebrate about currently being 6th in the PL? Like it's some sort of achievement? Jesus Christ we're below West Brom and Everton, athough I'm sure we'll scrape past them and then we can celebrate being 19 points off the pace (at least). We have no hope of winning it or even finishing near City or United, just like we have no hope of winning the CL.

Saying that clubs below us would trade for our position has to be the laziest argument because we justifiably have considerably higher expectations than fans of Reading, for example. Also, if Wenger was finishing 4th with a genuinely shit squad and a tiny wage bill then fair enough. Fact is, look at the squad we had in 2005 and it's a disgrace. Wenger might not have net spent much but, unlike other managers on tight budgets, he had a squad full of assets whose value he realised (from that squad Henry, Vieira, Cole, Toure, RvP and Fabregas have been sold raising over £100m in funds). And another thing about resources: Spurs pay their players about £50m less a year despite having more or less the same strength squad. If we actually had a prudent 'wage structure' then we would be able to afford a fucking marquee signing every year. Wenger's had the resources, he's just wasted them.

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DB10GOONER
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Re: What Stage Are You At?

Post by DB10GOONER »

I've never understood the "Well, there are worse off teams than us, loads of other teams' fans would swap with us in the morning" argument from the pro-Wengerites...

I'm 100% sure there are loads of such teams/clubs/fans, but that is not the point, surely? :rubchin:

It's like saying "our village has water but it is a bit polluted. The next village over has no water, so we should be grateful for what we have and not try to improve the quality of our water, because they'd swap with us in the morning if they could". :roll:

We are NOT Barnsley, or Accrington, or Leeds, or Bolton, or Portsmouth - all teams whose fans probably would swap their situation for ours in a heartbeat. We are The Arsenal.

It's like the other silly argument put forward; if Wenger left, who would/could replace him? I suppose we should just be thankful that we have had Arsene here since the club was formed in 1886, huh?

Oh, hang on... :roll: :banghead:

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SteveO 35
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Re: What Stage Are You At?

Post by SteveO 35 »

DB10GOONER wrote:I've never understood the "Well, there are worse off teams than us, loads of other teams' fans would swap with us in the morning" argument from the pro-Wengerites...

I'm 100% sure there are loads of such teams/clubs/fans, but that is not the point, surely? :rubchin:

It's like saying "our village has water but it is a bit polluted. The next village over has no water, so we should be grateful for what we have and not try to improve the quality of our water, because they'd swap with us in the morning if they could". :roll:

We are NOT Barnsley, or Accrington, or Leeds, or Bolton, or Portsmouth - all teams whose fans probably would swap their situation for ours in a heartbeat. We are The Arsenal.

It's like the other silly argument put forward; if Wenger left, who would/could replace him? I suppose we should just be thankful that we have had Arsene here since the club was formed in 1886, huh?

Oh, hang on... :roll: :banghead:
It is quite possibly the most pathetic argument in the book. "Lots of teams would love to be in our position". Yes, lots of road sweepers would love to be in the position of a rock star, and lots of dinnerladies would like to be catwalk models. It's called dreaming

Back in the real world where there is an established pecking order, our fans are forking out for STs double the prices of those at the Hawthorns for less entertainment and a lower league position.

Yes, I'm sure Accrington would love to be in Arsenal's position. I'm sure FC United of Manchester would love to be in Accrington's place, and I'm sure the Sunday pub team from up the road would love to be in FC United's position> And the point of that debate is ?

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augie
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Re: What Stage Are You At?

Post by augie »

Steve_I wrote:
MM99 wrote:
armchair supporter wrote:Very true but AKB is easier to say than - "those who want Wenger to stay for varying different reasons" :lol:
Whatever the reason or degree of love they have for Wenger they still want him to stay. That puts them in the Wenger to stay camp for me....... Or AKB

Similairly theres those who hate Wenger, want him hounded out, castrated, shot etc... And theres those who would love to see him leave with dignity, leaving his legacy intact. They still want him out, so WOB

See - all neat and tidy. :barscarf:
Correct me if I'm wrong but AKB refers to 'Arsene Knows Brigade', as in the section of fans who believe that Wenger knows everything, makes no mistakes and is unquestionable. It is possible to want Wenger to stay as manager but not think that he is infallible.
I think that's what Armchair was saying tbf. It's semantics but what seems to have happened, on this forum anyway, is that AKB appears to have become seen as, and be used as, an insult. This in turn leads folk to become defensive and therefore apologetic when saying something in defense of Arsene or why they still believe he should stay. just saying


How the fcuk is it used as an insult ? Some people get so fcuking precious on here at times :roll: :oops:

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Re: What Stage Are You At?

Post by Steve_I »

augie wrote:
Steve_I wrote:
MM99 wrote:
armchair supporter wrote:Very true but AKB is easier to say than - "those who want Wenger to stay for varying different reasons" :lol:
Whatever the reason or degree of love they have for Wenger they still want him to stay. That puts them in the Wenger to stay camp for me....... Or AKB

Similairly theres those who hate Wenger, want him hounded out, castrated, shot etc... And theres those who would love to see him leave with dignity, leaving his legacy intact. They still want him out, so WOB

See - all neat and tidy. :barscarf:
Correct me if I'm wrong but AKB refers to 'Arsene Knows Brigade', as in the section of fans who believe that Wenger knows everything, makes no mistakes and is unquestionable. It is possible to want Wenger to stay as manager but not think that he is infallible.
I think that's what Armchair was saying tbf. It's semantics but what seems to have happened, on this forum anyway, is that AKB appears to have become seen as, and be used as, an insult. This in turn leads folk to become defensive and therefore apologetic when saying something in defense of Arsene or why they still believe he should stay. just saying


How the fcuk is it used as an insult ? Some people get so fcuking precious on here at times :roll: :oops:

Lol, was just my impression having read through various threads... precious? hehe

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Arsene Wenger - For/Against/Indifferent?

Post by Steve_I »

SteveO 35 wrote:
DB10GOONER wrote:I've never understood the "Well, there are worse off teams than us, loads of other teams' fans would swap with us in the morning" argument from the pro-Wengerites...

I'm 100% sure there are loads of such teams/clubs/fans, but that is not the point, surely? :rubchin:

It's like saying "our village has water but it is a bit polluted. The next village over has no water, so we should be grateful for what we have and not try to improve the quality of our water, because they'd swap with us in the morning if they could". :roll:

We are NOT Barnsley, or Accrington, or Leeds, or Bolton, or Portsmouth - all teams whose fans probably would swap their situation for ours in a heartbeat. We are The Arsenal.

It's like the other silly argument put forward; if Wenger left, who would/could replace him? I suppose we should just be thankful that we have had Arsene here since the club was formed in 1886, huh?

Oh, hang on... :roll: :banghead:
It is quite possibly the most pathetic argument in the book. "Lots of teams would love to be in our position". Yes, lots of road sweepers would love to be in the position of a rock star, and lots of dinnerladies would like to be catwalk models. It's called dreaming

Back in the real world where there is an established pecking order, our fans are forking out for STs double the prices of those at the Hawthorns for less entertainment and a lower league position.

Yes, I'm sure Accrington would love to be in Arsenal's position. I'm sure FC United of Manchester would love to be in Accrington's place, and I'm sure the Sunday pub team from up the road would love to be in FC United's position> And the point of that debate is ?
it's not an argument at all, it's a statement.
Effectively Augie said "...the anger that he would face if he was performing like this at a different club" and I , imo reasonably, replied along the lines of 'actually that's not quite true as most clubs are worse off than us". Now it seems to be a case of "how can you use that argument, steve?" I wasn't, I was analysing it in the context it was used against my side of the debate.

But hey ho, one can but try to say what one thinks...

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augie
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Re: What Stage Are You At?

Post by augie »

A few questions for steve_i and any other Gooner out there that still supports wenger remaining in charge BUT still see his flaw's......

Do you believe that wenger see's those flaws ? Do you believes that wenger even thinks that they are flaws ? Do you believe that wenger can and will rectify those flaws ? Why do you think that wenger hasnt rectified those flaws before now ? Surely if you dont say yes to all of those questions then you cannot believe that he knows what is wrong and correct the problems so therefore you surely couldnt still want him to remain in charge could you ? For me "arsene knows" suggests that you believe that "he knows how to improve things" and I dont see how, if somebody really believes it, that the akb can be classed as insulting :roll:

Let me also add that I was part of the wob back when it was unpopular to think like that - back then there wasnt enough of us to fill a telephone box yet being called a wob never bothered me one jot. I said what I felt and stood by that 100% and if that pissed others off then I really didnt give a fcuk

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DB10GOONER
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Re: What Stage Are You At?

Post by DB10GOONER »

Steve_I wrote:
SteveO 35 wrote:
DB10GOONER wrote:I've never understood the "Well, there are worse off teams than us, loads of other teams' fans would swap with us in the morning" argument from the pro-Wengerites...

I'm 100% sure there are loads of such teams/clubs/fans, but that is not the point, surely? :rubchin:

It's like saying "our village has water but it is a bit polluted. The next village over has no water, so we should be grateful for what we have and not try to improve the quality of our water, because they'd swap with us in the morning if they could". :roll:

We are NOT Barnsley, or Accrington, or Leeds, or Bolton, or Portsmouth - all teams whose fans probably would swap their situation for ours in a heartbeat. We are The Arsenal.

It's like the other silly argument put forward; if Wenger left, who would/could replace him? I suppose we should just be thankful that we have had Arsene here since the club was formed in 1886, huh?

Oh, hang on... :roll: :banghead:
It is quite possibly the most pathetic argument in the book. "Lots of teams would love to be in our position". Yes, lots of road sweepers would love to be in the position of a rock star, and lots of dinnerladies would like to be catwalk models. It's called dreaming

Back in the real world where there is an established pecking order, our fans are forking out for STs double the prices of those at the Hawthorns for less entertainment and a lower league position.

Yes, I'm sure Accrington would love to be in Arsenal's position. I'm sure FC United of Manchester would love to be in Accrington's place, and I'm sure the Sunday pub team from up the road would love to be in FC United's position> And the point of that debate is ?
it's not an argument at all, it's a statement.
Effectively Augie said "...the anger that he would face if he was performing like this at a different club" and I , imo reasonably, replied along the lines of 'actually that's not quite true as most clubs are worse off than us". Now it seems to be a case of "how can you use that argument, steve?" I wasn't, I was analysing it in the context it was used against my side of the debate.

But hey ho, one can but try to say what one thinks...
I should clarify that my original post above wasn't refering directly to your post, Steve_I but was more an observation on a general argument put forward by alot of people that think Wenger is still the right man for the job.

Y'know... mad bastards. :wink: :wink:

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Re: What Stage Are You At?

Post by Robin_L »

Voted #3, I'm not an AKB and have criticised him plenty in recent times but there's little chance of us getting any higher than 4th whilst Manchester City and Chelsea have as much financial clout as they do.

Some of what Wenger does annoys me but some of the more vicious abuse on here directed towards the most successful manager in our club history is absolutely cringeworthy

Most of you are just frustrated at how we've been financially outstripped by a bunch of oligarchs and are taking it out on the most readily available target. Fair dos, I guess. Wenger aint going nowhere until at least 2014 anyway.

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Re: What Stage Are You At?

Post by goonersid »

augie wrote:Is there an option 6 ? :wink:

Seriously the guy needs to fcuk off and soon before I turn my back altogether and stop attending the matches and not watching them on tv :evil: I'm bringing up my two boys as 100% Gooners and this c**t is making my job nearly impossible :evil: People have slated me and suggest that I am wrong for bringing them up this way and that kids should be allowed make up their own minds but that is not the way it is meant to work imo and I can say with absolute certainty that if I was not insistant then they would have fcuked off and started supporting someone else by now :cry:

Right now I am not sure I give a fcuk how we get rid of him - if he resigns, if he is sacked or if a columbian hitman does the job for me I wont care as long as it gives my club a chance to change the mindset of everyone and allow us to move forward again. Christ at this stage I am sooooo angry I cant even put a sentence together to transmit the depth of my hatred
This ^^^^ and then some.

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Re: What Stage Are You At?

Post by flash gunner »

goonersid wrote:
augie wrote:Is there an option 6 ? :wink:

Seriously the guy needs to fcuk off and soon before I turn my back altogether and stop attending the matches and not watching them on tv :evil: I'm bringing up my two boys as 100% Gooners and this c**t is making my job nearly impossible :evil: People have slated me and suggest that I am wrong for bringing them up this way and that kids should be allowed make up their own minds but that is not the way it is meant to work imo and I can say with absolute certainty that if I was not insistant then they would have fcuked off and started supporting someone else by now :cry:

Right now I am not sure I give a fcuk how we get rid of him - if he resigns, if he is sacked or if a columbian hitman does the job for me I wont care as long as it gives my club a chance to change the mindset of everyone and allow us to move forward again. Christ at this stage I am sooooo angry I cant even put a sentence together to transmit the depth of my hatred
This ^^^^ and then some.
Was wondering what way you voted Sid :?


:wink: :lol:

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Re: What Stage Are You At?

Post by Steve_I »

DB10GOONER wrote: I should clarify that my original post above wasn't refering directly to your post, Steve_I but was more an observation on a general argument put forward by alot of people that think Wenger is still the right man for the job.

Y'know... mad bastards. :wink: :wink:

lol fair enough :)

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Re: What Stage Are You At?

Post by northbank123 »

The easiest target is the board because nobody has any affiliation towards them.

The old resources excuse is brought out yet again but stack our wage bill up against Spurs' and Everton's: it's fucking embarrassing, especially seeing as it bought us 1 point last season. There are teams with far lower resources than us who don't start every season abysmally and then judge themselves by those standards. Consider the disparity in resources between us and United and then us and Spurs and Everton and tell me which club out of the 4 is underperforming compared to turnover and wage bill.

Not winning anything in that long is painful, but what really hurts is not trying to win anything in that time. You can't suggest we've made a serious attempt to win the PL apart from perhaps 2008 when we were found wanting by flaws that everybody knew existed. Since moving we haven't got near winning the CL and never will unless things drastically change. And we've sacrificed the FA Cup every season more or less. And although the LC is hardly the most glamorous, we've sacrificed that and when we actually tried to win it we couldn't beat relegation fodder.

It isn't through horrific luck or particular circumstance that we've been trophyless for so long. We've only got near one League Cup in that time, yet we're meant to laud Wenger for keeping us consistently at the top of English football?

Even those who support Wenger realise his gaping flaws. Fans of other clubs will moan about a manager's insistence on playing one player, or not to sign one other. We have to put up with the following:

1. We still have Bendtner, Arshavin, Chamakh, Squillaci, Denilson, Fabianski and Djourou soaking up probably in excess £15m a year on wages. It's pissing money down the drain. Add Diaby and Rosicky to that list given they make about 15 appearances a season between them (if we're lucky) and it's £20+m. How's that for management of resources?

2. We haven't replaced our best players like van Persie, Nasri and Fabregas, and going back to our last successes we replaced Pires and Ljungberg with Rosicky and Hleb, Henry with Adebayor, Bergkamp with van Persie who played intermittently for 6 and a half years before finally coming good, Cole with Clichy, Lehmann with Almunia, Vieira with Diaby/Denilson/take your pick, Campbell with Gallas, Gilberto with Song and Toure with Silvestre. It's shocking mismanagement how we've replaced every area of our team with inferior players.

3. For the last two seasons (at least) we've desperately needed a goalkeeper at least capable of challenging for the jersey, a dependable left-back and a defensive midfielder (bare minimum). We've signed none of these and subsequently drop a load of points each season to keeping errors, having no defensive shape and getting raped down our left.

4. We play literally the same formation with the same approach every game. We're so easy to read it's embarrassing. And what makes it worse is that on the rare occasion we'll switch to 4-4-2, it more often than not works and gets the best out of players who look otherwise useless - see Chamakh and Arshavin against Reading. Our team doesn't profit from 4-5-1 and our rigidity makes it so easy for opposition managers to decide how to set up against us.

These are 4 absolutely fundamental failings without bringing into account his actions and conduct. Are you seriously saying that making these mistakes every season for up to 7 years should be waved aside and Wenger granted an extension to run one of the biggest clubs in the world?

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Re: What Stage Are You At?

Post by MM99 »

augie wrote:A few questions for steve_i and any other Gooner out there that still supports wenger remaining in charge BUT still see his flaw's......
I'll try and answer a few of the questions mate. Bear in mind these are just my personal opinions so someone else who wants Wenger to stay might have completely different views to me.
Do you believe that wenger see's those flaws ?
This is quite a broad question as I think he has various different flaws and each to varying degrees. Also, some people might think he has flaws which I personally don't think are his fault so that issue would be questionable. Therefore, i'll just stick to my main gripes with Wenger.

1. First point would be his insistence on playing the same formation in all games. For me this is his biggest flaw. Different games require different strategies and I can't for the life of me think why he doesn't switch it up more often. Sometimes we are begging for a second striker to be on the pitch and still continue to play with one up front. That frustrates me immensely.

2. Second major flaw for me, and arguably more important than the first one, is the lack of traditional wingers at the club since the likes of Ljunberg and Pires left. From as early as 2006 when I posted on the .com forum I said that the major weakness of the team was our lack of proper wingers. This meant we always played people like Diaby, Hleb, Rosicky, Walcott etc... on the wings and ultimately meant that we never beat the opposition full backs, did not have enough width in the team, our play was consequently more centralised, and it was difficult to break down teams that so often just sat back and defended.
Compare this to other teams' wide players: Utd had Ronaldo and Nani at the time, now they have Valencia and Young. Both great players that can beat their opposition to the by-line and get in a good cross. Chelsea had Malouda who always ripped us apart, now they have the likes of Hazard and Mata; and Liverpool had wingers like Babel and Riera.

3. Third flaw for me would be his continual playing of terrible players. Denilson being the prime example. Everytime I saw his name on the team sheet against the like of chelsea and utd I knew we would end up losing. Of course there are some players that end up coming good (prime example being Koscielny) but there are always those which are obvious from the start that aren't going to make it. So to sacrifice bringing in better players because of the like of Denilson is incredibly frustrating.

Do you believes that wenger even thinks that they are flaws ?
1. Probably not as much as he should as we still go through games where he's stuck with the same formation when we need to change it (Villa on the weekend). On the other hand there have been games where he has changed the formation around and thrown on extra attacking players (Reading). Does Wenger himself notice this? I'm not sure as I'm not able to read his mind. Ultimately though, I would have to say that he doesn't rectify the situation as quickly as possible and not on enough ocassions.

2. The signings of Gervinho and Chamberlain would suggest that he is reverting back to using more traditional pacy wingers who can beat their man. However, the fact that we still play Podolski and Walcott as our first team wide men would show that he still hasn't fully realised this.

3. I think so. He was quick to drop Santos and bring in Vermaelen after his poor performances and has also replaced the likes of Arshavin with quality such as Podolski. Also he hasn't given Chamack anywhere near enough game time as he might have got a few years back. On that front I think he is aware of the problems. People might argue that the likes of Ramsey should be in that category but I disagree as I'm not willing to write him off just yet.
Do you believe that wenger can and will rectify those flaws ?
1. I think now more than ever before he is willing to change up styles and formations, especially with Giroud in the team, and we do seem to be mixing up our play with more crosses into the box; but I do wish he did it more often. So while he is willing in certain situations to change things up, I don't think he will ever have the approach of Mourinho who had no issues making subs at any point of the game.

2. Like I said before, signings like Gervinho and Chamberlain show that he is going back to traditional Wingers, but we are still playing Podolski out of position as a winger when he isn't one. I'll have to wait and see what happens in the next major transfer window to give a better answer as it'll depend on how he reacts to either Walcott leaving, and him getting in a replacement, or just the type of midfielder he next chooses to sign.

3. Kind of covered this above but I think he is more willing to drop players that aren't performing and with the likes of Wilshere, Arteta and Cazorla, the standards have been raised so hopefully we won't go back to situations where we had players of Denilsons quality playing week in week out.
Surely if you dont say yes to all of those questions then you cannot believe that he knows what is wrong and correct the problems so therefore you surely couldnt still want him to remain in charge could you ?
For me personally, whilst they are annoying and at times fucking frustrating things that I believe could be rectified I still don't think they warrant him to be sacked as every manager will undoubtedly have their own set of faults. Don't get me wrong, I would be interested to see how another manager addresses these issues, but I'm not going to hound Wenger out the club for them.
For me "arsene knows" suggests that you believe that "he knows how to improve things" and I dont see how, if somebody really believes it, that the akb can be classed as insulting :roll:
It's not so much the 'arsene knows' part that can be insulting, but the meaning behind it. Often it is used to label people as Wenger worshippers who can see no wrong with him or the club and are uneducated on the club as a whole. People use it in conjunction with other terms such as 'sheep', 'JCL', 'clueless', 'deluded' etc... It may not have that meaning to you personally, but some other posters have used 'AKB' in that way to put down the views of anyone that argues in Wenger's favour.

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Re: What Stage Are You At?

Post by mikeyb772001 »

I’m at the stage where I hate him so much I live for moments like villa when I get the chance to vent some anger with chants like “you don’t know what you’re doing”

I am at the stage where It amuses me seeing him get abuse from the media and even rival fans.

In short I can’t stand wenger, I despise the old goat.

The sooner he leaves the better. Hopefully he will be sacked

So come on AKB’S spout your usual bullshit replies. I edited a post on this very thread to include some more points regarding our old goat mr arshole wonger


I can also say I don’t give a flying fuck about what he did for us, I can also say I have no respect for him. I can also say I don’t give a flying fuck what anyone on here thinks about my views.



if Wenger had left after the Champions League final in 2006 and was replaced by a manager (lets call him John Smith) who then went on to win nothing for the next 6 years, replaced all of our experienced players with a youth project that didn't really work, oversaw a staggering decline in quality, a decline in defensive stability (we conceded a whopping 49 last season! - and not much better in the 3 previous seasons either), and had overseen an 8-2 defeat at Old Trafford, as well as having the worst start to a season in 17 years last year, and worst start in 18 years this season, first loss to the scum at home in nearly 20 years, the first team to ever lose a 4 goal lead (newcastle) would you still be happy to retain him as manager?

And what if we'd gone from signing gems like Henry, Pires, Anelka, Cesc, RvP, Vieira, etc. (all pre-2006) and instead 'John Smith' was bringing through (and endlessly playing) players of lesser talent and lesser character, would you be ok with that?

Also what if this manager had so ,much power and control he didn’t answer to anyone and even interviewed the chairman (IVAN) What if this manager had control over player contracts and somehow allowed star players to run contracts down so they end up leaving to biggest rivals.

In addition what if this manager chose to play out of form players on a constant basis whilst making crazy substitutions at key moments of a game. What if this manager chose to play several players out of position on a constant basis ?

What if this manager ignored the fact that defence and the keeper needs better training (for the last 5 years) . What if this manager chose not to seek additional help to address these issues…

What if this manager run up a wage bill that was 12% lower than united and that includes their star players and win bonuses. What if this manager had a wage bill 40-60% higher than teams like spurs and Newcastle when spurs finished 1 point behind us.

What if this manager moaned about players high salaries and didn’t sign superstars , despite himself earning 7.5 a year.

What if this manager went into a new season with no full backs available and made no attempt to address it.

And what if, together with this staggering decline, our entertainment value had also plummeted at the same rate as our ticket prices went up? and what if he was tactically naive, and spent most of the games berating the 4th official, and talking nonsense in interviews? what if he'd insisted on getting players like Bendtner, Denilson, Chamakh, Squillaci, Park, Almunia, etc. on long contracts that make them dead-weights... and what if he over-relied on injury prone players that constantly handicapped us when they inevitably spend months on the sidelines? and what if he'd removed any sign of leadership from the team? and... ah, you get the idea.

Personally, I think people are [understandably] unable to seperate the great Wenger from the John Smith bloke but for me, he used to be top quality champagne, bubbling and fizzing away in all his glory... now he's a flat, watered down, pint of John Smith's

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