Arsene Wenger - What Stage Are You At?

[Steve_I]

It's not so much the 'arsene knows' part that can be insulting, but the meaning behind it. Often it is used to label people as Wenger worshippers who can see no wrong with him or the club and are uneducated on the club as a whole. People use it in conjunction with other terms such as 'sheep', 'JCL', 'clueless', 'deluded' etc... It may not have that meaning to you personally, but some other posters have used 'AKB' in that way to put down the views of anyone that argues in Wenger's favour.

Agree


This is a good articulation of why I referred to the term as being used as an insult... it is an impression I formed as to how some folk use the term, whilst I was reading various threads.

[brazilianGOONER]

In years to come Wenger im sure will be remembered highly by Arsenal fans but its gone too far for me now i am beginning to hate him now and i cant imagine anything changing my mind over time

really mate. i wonder what would be written in this very forum were it open back when graham signed for spurs, after building a mediocre team for us in the mid90s and taking money to sign lydersen and jensen. can you imagine what the likes of sid and augie would be saying about that?

and yet, i don't know of anyone in this forum who doesn't see graham as an arsenal legend, and one of our greatest managers of all time.

my point is, if you managed to achieve some great unparalleled success (like both graham and wenger did), some years of mediocrity will be kind of erased of our memories over time.

as i used to say about almunia, wenger lost it and should be replaced, but why are the club not pushing him for more success? he's well payed and in his head does a good job, but why are his bosses not complaining about his lack of ambition and putting at least some pressure on him?

[mikeyb772001]

In years to come Wenger im sure will be remembered highly by Arsenal fans but its gone too far for me now i am beginning to hate him now and i cant imagine anything changing my mind over time

really mate. i wonder what would be written in this very forum were it open back when graham signed for spurs, after building a mediocre team for us in the mid90s and taking money to sign lydersen and jensen. can you imagine what the likes of sid and augie would be saying about that?

and yet, i don't know of anyone in this forum who doesn't see graham as an arsenal legend, and one of our greatest managers of all time.

my point is, if you managed to achieve some great unparalleled success (like both graham and wenger did), some years of mediocrity will be kind of erased of our memories over time.

as i used to say about almunia, wenger lost it and should be replaced, but why are the club not pushing him for more success? he's well payed and in his head does a good job, but why are his bosses not complaining about his lack of ambition and putting at least some pressure on him?

gg had 1 bad year! He won something nearly every season! Wenger has had 8 years of being a wanker

[northbank123]

It's not so much the 'arsene knows' part that can be insulting, but the meaning behind it. Often it is used to label people as Wenger worshippers who can see no wrong with him or the club and are uneducated on the club as a whole. People use it in conjunction with other terms such as 'sheep', 'JCL', 'clueless', 'deluded' etc... It may not have that meaning to you personally, but some other posters have used 'AKB' in that way to put down the views of anyone that argues in Wenger's favour.

Agree


This is a good articulation of why I referred to the term as being used as an insult... it is an impression I formed as to how some folk use the term, whilst I was reading various threads.

"AKB" isn't a term I really like using too much, largely because of reasons you and others have mentioned above.

But you say how it's used to represent Wenger worshippers. Well after 7 years of complete and utter failure and continued downward spiral to many (me included) the only way you can try and suggest he's the right man to take us forward in the face of numerous huge shortcomings and failures is to blindly ignore them because you worship the man. Fair play for anybody who actually comes on and genuinely tries to debate about why he should stay but so far I've not heard one coherent argument as to why he should even be considered to continue in the post.

[Steve_I]

"AKB" isn't a term I really like using too much, largely because of reasons you and others have mentioned above.

But you say how it's used to represent Wenger worshippers. Well after 7 years of complete and utter failure and continued downward spiral to many (me included) the only way you can try and suggest he's the right man to take us forward in the face of numerous huge shortcomings and failures is to blindly ignore them because you worship the man. Fair play for anybody who actually comes on and genuinely tries to debate about why he should stay but so far I've not heard one coherent argument as to why he should even be considered to continue in the post.

Fair point re why you don't like using the term.

Personally I do not 'worship' Arsene, I just believe he is still a good man for the job. I don't believe you WILL hear one coherent argument as to why he should be considered to continue because there probably aren't 'new/unheard' arguments that haven't already been dismissed as irrelevant, even tho that dismissal is almost definitely subjective.

As I've hinted at before, I think whatever the equivalent or opposite of 'rose tinted' is, applies. I have admitted that I agree it is frustrating not to have won anything in the recent years but I do not believe a.n.other would necessarily have done better. You will say of course "the 'there is no alternative argument' doesn't wash" but there isn't! there certainly isn't a certain cast iron better option, it is all but pipe dreams and wishful thinking.

[northbank123]

So because we wouldn't have been 100% guaranteed to have won a trophy in the mean time that means that Wenger should be kept on?

You're right in that neither side are likely to convince the other side round to the other way of thinking because it's such a fundamental issue.

But the way I view it is that in the face of such compelling failure to even get near winning anything, a clear lack of ambition, a vicious cycle in which our best players have regularly left since 2005 and been replaced with crap and a culture of celebrating and rewarding perennial underachievement, the impetus is on anybody wanting Wenger to stay on to justify exactly why. Those are pretty damning arguments for him not being the right man so I think it's fair to expect you to post a riposte rather than just relying on the fact he used to be a great manager nearly a decade ago as justification for everything.

And all I've heard in response are arguments like: nobody else would have been guaranteed to have won anything; we can't compete with anybody with the resources (not even backed up looking at wage stats especially); players have no loyalty nowadays.

[augie]

Bg, mikey answered you before I had even read your post but I would agree with what he said - the difference with GG and whats happening now with wenger is that back then the board acted swiftly to halt the slide. Some people will claim that they sacked him over the backhanders issue but for me that was an excuse to sack him cos it was obvious to even the biggest GG fans (me ) that we had become stale under him and a change was needed. For the record (again) I would like to say that I was unhappy about the manner of his departure at that time (should have been allowed to resign imo) but I accepted it and moved on cos the club obviously was more important than 1 man but now wenger has had ample chances to resign and hasnt done so and the board has had plenty of opportunities to sack him and hasnt done so which means that we are in a stuck in a revolving door going around and around without ever getting anywhere

MM99, I have always liked debating issues with you cos you are willing to do so in an articulate manner (although I did request that you be suspended from here unless you re-install the gif with the chick shaking her ass in the nightclub ). Most of us agree with the list of wenger flaws you penned but my question to you remains the same.......will he change his ethos or mindset to get this club back to winning ways and what makes you so confident that he will change ? For us to improve wenger would have to admit, even to himself, that his system simply is not working and I dont see him as a guy willing to wipe the slate clean and start over. His formation, lack of tactics, lack of motivation of the players and the quality of player recruitments are all serious issue's that are holding the club back and these are all under wenger's remit - do you seriously believe he is willing to accept defeat in the way he has been operating in these aspects cos I dont

[Steve_I]

So because we wouldn't have been 100% guaranteed to have won a trophy in the mean time that means that Wenger should be kept on?

You're right in that neither side are likely to convince the other side round to the other way of thinking because it's such a fundamental issue.

But the way I view it is that in the face of such compelling failure to even get near winning anything, a clear lack of ambition, a vicious cycle in which our best players have regularly left since 2005 and been replaced with crap and a culture of celebrating and rewarding perennial underachievement, the impetus is on anybody wanting Wenger to stay on to justify exactly why. Those are pretty damning arguments for him not being the right man so I think it's fair to expect you to post a riposte rather than just relying on the fact he used to be a great manager nearly a decade ago as justification for everything.

And all I've heard in response are arguments like: nobody else would have been guaranteed to have won anything; we can't compete with anybody with the resources (not even backed up looking at wage stats especially); players have no loyalty nowadays.

Damning arguments if one chooses to seem them as such. I think I look on things differently is all.

Would I have sex with a man for a million quid? Yeah probably (bear with me here)
Would I do so for a fiver? absolutely not.

Somewhere between those two figures is my fee for having sex with a man

so,

A Should Arsene stay if we had won A couple or more major trophies over the last seven years and had a clear opportunity to do so again this year? Yep - we wouldn't be having this debate if it were so I think

B Should he stay if we had fallen out of the PL over the last year and were struggling to look like contenders for promotion back at this stage of the season? Nope - of course he shouldn't.


Somewhere between the two lies a position for all but the most demented of Arsene loyalists - agree?

I believe that I am up at the same end of the spectrum as most of you but still not near my personal threshold for wanting him out.

[QuartzGooner]

I think the pro-Wenger camp only have two arguments.

1.) Wenger won seven trophies for us in nine years, and got us playing excellent football, so deserves more time.

2.) Wenger has been hampered by the board, who have held back money because of the new stadium, and by new the billionaire money at other clubs.

In answer to the two points:

1.) We have not won anything since 2005, and since then have only consistently played good football in 2007 - 2008.

2.) Money was held back by the board 2006 - 2009, but not to the extent that we spent as much as we could have.
Billionaire run clubs have a cash advantage over us, but we could have spent the same amount of cash as we have spent, only more wisely.

Tactics continue to be not good enough.
Too many promising signings failed to develop to their potential.
Obviously inept signings are not remedied quickly enough (Santos, Chamakh, Squillachi).

I am convinced there was nothing we could have done to retain some high profiles players who left:
Henry, Flamini, Hleb, Cesc.
I think that selling Gilberto, Toure, Nasri and Song was correct.
In hindsight I do think more should have been done to try to retain Vieira and Van Persie.

Even with the bad injury luck that has happened it is time for a change of manager.

[brazilianGOONER]

Bg, mikey answered you before I had even read your post but I would agree with what he said - the difference with GG and whats happening now with wenger is that back then the board acted swiftly to halt the slide. Some people will claim that they sacked him over the backhanders issue but for me that was an excuse to sack him cos it was obvious to even the biggest GG fans (me ) that we had become stale under him and a change was needed. For the record (again) I would like to say that I was unhappy about the manner of his departure at that time (should have been allowed to resign imo) but I accepted it and moved on cos the club obviously was more important than 1 man but now wenger has had ample chances to resign and hasnt done so and the board has had plenty of opportunities to sack him and hasnt done so which means that we are in a stuck in a revolving door going around and around without ever getting anywhere

before considering any of my opinions regarding graham it's important to note i wasn't an arsenal supporter during his reign so i obviously know about this much less than anyone here, but man, he accepted a lot of money to buy shit players to the club, and then went on to manage the scum of all teams. that's low!

wenger put us through years of not winning anything, but even though we're tired of having these facts thrown at our faces when we want trophies, 13 consecutive years in champions league's last 16 is no simple job. we haven't finished below top 4 and the scum do not know what finishing above us mean, well, since that last shit team of graham's...

i want arsène gone like everyone else, if it depended on me we'd sack him today - i just can't hate the man. i'd just like to slap him a couple of times and everything would be cool

[northbank123]

So because we wouldn't have been 100% guaranteed to have won a trophy in the mean time that means that Wenger should be kept on?

You're right in that neither side are likely to convince the other side round to the other way of thinking because it's such a fundamental issue.

But the way I view it is that in the face of such compelling failure to even get near winning anything, a clear lack of ambition, a vicious cycle in which our best players have regularly left since 2005 and been replaced with crap and a culture of celebrating and rewarding perennial underachievement, the impetus is on anybody wanting Wenger to stay on to justify exactly why. Those are pretty damning arguments for him not being the right man so I think it's fair to expect you to post a riposte rather than just relying on the fact he used to be a great manager nearly a decade ago as justification for everything.

And all I've heard in response are arguments like: nobody else would have been guaranteed to have won anything; we can't compete with anybody with the resources (not even backed up looking at wage stats especially); players have no loyalty nowadays.

Damning arguments if one chooses to seem them as such. I think I look on things differently is all.

Would I have sex with a man for a million quid? Yeah probably (bear with me here)
Would I do so for a fiver? absolutely not.

Somewhere between those two figures is my fee for having sex with a man

so,

A Should Arsene stay if we had won A couple or more major trophies over the last seven years and had a clear opportunity to do so again this year? Yep - we wouldn't be having this debate if it were so I think

B Should he stay if we had fallen out of the PL over the last year and were struggling to look like contenders for promotion back at this stage of the season? Nope - of course he shouldn't.


Somewhere between the two lies a position for all but the most demented of Arsene loyalists - agree?

I believe that I am up at the same end of the spectrum as most of you but still not near my personal threshold for wanting him out.

I had absolutely no idea where you were going with that, could have come from Wenger himself mate

I see where you're coming from but I'll point out what I see at the flaw in that argument: you've put the lowest parameter at AFC being relegated. That's absurd frankly, what's the point in using that as any sort of yardstick. I'm not disagreeing with what you're implying about a 'grey area' but fact is for most people on here the lower parameter which would warrant automatic sacking would be 7 years of not nearly winning anything and not looking like doing so in the foreseeable future (certainly not the PL or CL), or even less. It's all about expectations, given where we were in 2004/5 where we've fallen now is a huge failure imo.

If, as most pro-Wenger fans seem to insist, you don't merely want him to stay because of who he is or because you idolise him then the only fair way to assess the situation is if you imagined that a new manager had presided over that 7 years. This was argued well above by DB10 I think, and suffice to say a new manager would have been gone long ago.

Just look at the quality of our players that have been brought in to replace the Invincibles. How many players in the last 7 years do you think would get into that team? For me the only one in the back 5 would be Sagna. Fabregas would throw some interesting questions about formation up, Nasri would probably make the bench along with Wilshere and RvP would also be in the squad too based on the last 15% of his AFC career where he wasn't persistently injured. A pretty pitiful return that only a few players from 7 years worth of teams would make that squad.

[northbank123]

Wenger has lost the edge over the rest of the field that he used to have.

1. His ability in the transfer market to find absolutely gems at bargain prices has been slowly eroded by other clubs' scouting networks and the globalisation of the game. 15 years ago we would have been able to nick somebody like Hazard at a bargain price, but because he was on other clubs' radars due to expanded scouting networks then the club knew they could hang on and then flog him at a massive sum. Unfortunately instead of changing tact he's insisted on trying to find the same bargains: we might have got Sagna cheap from Ligue 1 but we also signed Chamakh, Cygan, Koscielny (even if he ends up being a good player far too much faith was put in him early on and it cost us).

2. His tactics are so rigid it's ridiculous. You can say we didn't used to change it much during the Invincible season but that's not true, we knew when to defend and we used the tactic that suited us: pacey, counter-attacking football when needed and outright domination at most other times. Now we've played the same 4-5-1 with no success for seasons even though it's extremely obvious that our squad isn't suited to it.

3. He's lost his desire to win on the same scale. I'm sure this will be counteracted by pointing towards his hissy fits on the touchline but the man thinks fourth place is a trophy, what does that tell you? He was unconcerned by the fact we got beaten 8-2 at OT (which used to be probably our biggest game of the year) because we'd scraped past Udinese in the week. He celebrates mediocrity and this is evidenced by his willingness to reward permanent crocks and underachievers with huge contracts.

4. The players no longer believe in 'Project Wenger'. It used to be banded about that if he left so would all of our best players. Well wake up, they have. I hate van Staplecunt with every fibre of my body and think his decision to actually leave and the way he conducted himself was atrocious, but I do not believe the decision was down to money. The fact was that he met with Wenger and offered him the opportunity to convince him that the club had real ambition, which he evidently did not.

[MM99]

MM99, I have always liked debating issues with you cos you are willing to do so in an articulate manner (although I did request that you be suspended from here unless you re-install the gif with the chick shaking her ass in the nightclub )

Likewise mate. And I know, it's a shame we no longer can have them in our signatures as I've acquired a whole folder of similar gifs that are going to waste!

Most of us agree with the list of wenger flaws you penned but my question to you remains the same.......will he change his ethos or mindset to get this club back to winning ways and what makes you so confident that he will change ? For us to improve wenger would have to admit, even to himself, that his system simply is not working and I dont see him as a guy willing to wipe the slate clean and start over. His formation, lack of tactics, lack of motivation of the players and the quality of player recruitments are all serious issue's that are holding the club back and these are all under wenger's remit - do you seriously believe he is willing to accept defeat in the way he has been operating in these aspects cos I dont

I don't think he'll change his mindset too much. Like I said in my previous post, in some cases you can see that he has actually changed his attitude, but in others he hasn't as much as we would like.

Whether or not we can go back to winning ways, if the club continues as we are then we have absolutely no chance of winning the league ever again. But could we potentially win the league again under Wenger if things did change? Then yes. I'll try and explain my reasoning for this.

In my opinion, Wenger is still a good manager. I've outlined some of his flaws in my previous post and that was by no means an exhaustive list. Not a fan of quoting stats but considering that he's managed 921 Arsenal games he's got a 57% win rate, and Ferguson has got a 58% win rate, that's a pretty decent percentage. However, I do realise that Ferguson has managed a lot more games for Utd than Wenger's 921, and in my opinion Ferguson is by far a better manager than Wenger, that goes without saying, but I don't think that people can accuse Wenger of being a bad manager. I think at times people's anger at Wenger prevents them from taking a step back and looking at things objectively and seeing that he's not actually as bad as some people like to make out.

So, in essence I disagree with you on the point that his lack of tactics and player motivations are holding the club back.
With regards to player recruitment, I think again this issue is blown out of proportion. From the way some people talk about the team it would appear that the squad is mediocre at best, the 'wrost arsenal squad ever' and that we are nothing more than a mid-table side. Heck, some have been saying we'll finish as low as 7th or 8th for the past six years, yet we've managed to finish in the top four for 16 years in a row, and even finished above Chelsea last season.** Now either the players aren't as bad as people make out, and as a result Wenger's recruitment policy isn't that bad; or the players are actually that bad and it's Wenger who has managed to get them to punch above their weight, pointing to good managerial skills.

A question for you in return mate. Do you think if tomorrow Kroenke had a change of heart and turned round to Wenger and said "I am willing to spend £1bn into this club. Money is not an issue. We will pay whatever wages or transfer fees are required for the players we need. No questions asked." Do you think that he will still continue to buy the likes of Chamack? Or do you think, knowing that he can match any other offer from the likes of City, Chelsea, Barca, Utd and offer any money he wants; that he will shift in the type of players he goes after?

**I do not condone the idea of being content with simply finishing in the top 4 and this should not be the sole barometer of success.

[I Hate Hleb]

...In my opinion, Wenger is still a good manager. I've outlined some of his flaws in my previous post and that was by no means an exhaustive list. Not a fan of quoting stats but considering that he's managed 921 Arsenal games he's got a 57% win rate, and Ferguson has got a 58% win rate, that's a pretty decent percentage. However, I do realise that Ferguson has managed a lot more games for Utd than Wenger's 921, and in my opinion Ferguson is by far a better manager than Wenger, that goes without saying, but I don't think that people can accuse Wenger of being a bad manager. I think at times people's anger at Wenger prevents them from taking a step back and looking at things objectively and seeing that he's not actually as bad as some people like to make out.....

Wonder what his 'Win Percentage' has been since 2005?

[northbank123]

MM99... I think Wenger would go slightly more expensive but the man personally baulks at the idea of paying a player the wages those two clubs do, and he also would never pay more than he feels a player is worth and as we all know his estimations are not in line with the transfer market. He treats the club's money as if it's his own, hasn't the guy said if he was given £100m he wouldn't spend any of it or something along those lines? Problem is he thinks he can still succeed by signing players on the cheap, which just won't work because other clubs have expanded their scouting networks and focused on hotspots like France (meaning Chelsea sign players like Drogba, Essien, Cech and Hazard while we sign Cygan, Koscielny, Chamakh and Park) and there are more clubs throwing money around.

It's not necessarily that he's inherently a bad manager and I would go out on a limb and say that he could still do a good job at another club. The problem is he's too stuck in his ways here, things will never change under him and I don't know how you can suggest his attitude has changed. Other than lowering his expectations and becoming more conceited and defensive every year.

It's not easy competing with the resources Chelsea and City have, nobody's saying that. But he's not made the most of ours. Spurs pay nearly £1m less a week to their squad and it's more or less as good as ours. Whatever his flaws, he made two fundamental errors: letting the Invincibles break up without replacing them, and then criminally doing the same with the 2008 squad who have been the only lot capable of winning something decent since we moved.

What do you actually think is going to change to make us a top club under Wenger again capable of winning PL and CL? Our wage bill is out of control, our manager treats every penny in transfer funds as though it was his own yet inexplicably parts with several million pounds to sign players like Park and Squillaci, we're the most tactically one-dimensional team I know at any level and all of our best players have lost faith in the manager and his project which means we've become a conveyor belt for talent. Last season saw us lose 8-2 at OT and 4-0 in Milan (two of the worst performances by AFC I've ever seen), and when the pressure was on at the end of the season we couldn't buy a win, yet last season is constantly used by Wenger and his loyalists as proof of his managerial ability despite the facts we've made exactly the same failings again this year. It's just tiring being subjected to the same bollocks every season.

I'll flip the question, what would it take to persuade you that he has to go?