Unai Emery

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GoonerMuzz
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Re: Unai Emery

Post by GoonerMuzz »

Steve you know as well as I do those figures mean next to nothing, they could have been the same, worse or better if he'd remained in charge. The only thing that can be said is that the results under him were getting worse before he was sacked and they haven't improved since he was sacked.

I will happily concede the fact that a lot of the issues weren't just down to Emery, the players attitude and application under him were lacking however his lack of leadership was also an issue whether you like it or not. For a club it's always a lot easier to replace one man than 6 or 7 disruptive players, it's always been like that in football.

My opinion is that after a good start he lost his assertiveness and never seemed to build a team and identity, he was constantly swapping players around and clashed with some of the senior players in the dressing room (there are two sides to that story and not very much has come out from him on it which shows a level class the players should aspire too). For me he was not adaptable enough for the EPL and was very much like a latter season Wenger, he expected to outscore opponents without the team to do so.

Whether his replacement will be any better I am doubtful but he should be given time to at least try to turn things around, you have espoused the opinion that Emery should have been given more time but you dont seem to be willing to give Arteta any time what so ever which I find unusual. :rubchin:

Jock Gooner
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Re: Unai Emery

Post by Jock Gooner »

GoonerMuzz wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:14 pm
Steve you know as well as I do those figures mean next to nothing, they could have been the same, worse or better if he'd remained in charge. The only thing that can be said is that the results under him were getting worse before he was sacked and they haven't improved since he was sacked.

I will happily concede the fact that a lot of the issues weren't just down to Emery, the players attitude and application under him were lacking however his lack of leadership was also an issue whether you like it or not. For a club it's always a lot easier to replace one man than 6 or 7 disruptive players, it's always been like that in football.

My opinion is that after a good start he lost his assertiveness and never seemed to build a team and identity, he was constantly swapping players around and clashed with some of the senior players in the dressing room (there are two sides to that story and not very much has come out from him on it which shows a level class the players should aspire too). For me he was not adaptable enough for the EPL and was very much like a latter season Wenger, he expected to outscore opponents without the team to do so.

Whether his replacement will be any better I am doubtful but he should be given time to at least try to turn things around, you have espoused the opinion that Emery should have been given more time but you dont seem to be willing to give Arteta any time what so ever which I find unusual. :rubchin:
Have to say I agree that's a pretty fair and balanced assessment of where we currently find ourselves.

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SteveO 35
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Re: Unai Emery

Post by SteveO 35 »

GoonerMuzz wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:14 pm
Steve you know as well as I do those figures mean next to nothing, they could have been the same, worse or better if he'd remained in charge. The only thing that can be said is that the results under him were getting worse before he was sacked and they haven't improved since he was sacked.

I will happily concede the fact that a lot of the issues weren't just down to Emery, the players attitude and application under him were lacking however his lack of leadership was also an issue whether you like it or not. For a club it's always a lot easier to replace one man than 6 or 7 disruptive players, it's always been like that in football.

My opinion is that after a good start he lost his assertiveness and never seemed to build a team and identity, he was constantly swapping players around and clashed with some of the senior players in the dressing room (there are two sides to that story and not very much has come out from him on it which shows a level class the players should aspire too). For me he was not adaptable enough for the EPL and was very much like a latter season Wenger, he expected to outscore opponents without the team to do so.

Whether his replacement will be any better I am doubtful but he should be given time to at least try to turn things around, you have espoused the opinion that Emery should have been given more time but you dont seem to be willing to give Arteta any time what so ever which I find unusual. :rubchin:
Fair points - he ultimately lost his job because of a poor run of results, there's no hiding from that and I've always conceded that. However, I happen to believe that the points being argued in Arteta's favour equally applied to Emery. Lets take the defence as an example - there is no doubt in my mind that an ENTIRE new back four needs to be built....but we all know that unlike the Bank of Pep, our rebuilding process could not be one transfer window, or two.....probably even three.

The defence he inherited - Bellerin (an injury prone converted winger who was unavailable for a year), Holding (the most promising and was playing well as part of the 22 game unbeaten run before injury wrecked his season), Mustafi (uncoachable as proven since), Sokratis (a positive addition last year and alongside Holding looked good, but shite this year), Kolasinac (fat, slow but cheap and available hence his signing). The other fringe defenders (or makeshift ones) Maitland Niles, Jenkinson, Mavropanos, Oh and of course he inherited that geriatric helmet in goal, and a permacrock captain in Koscileny who wanted to fuck off anyway.

He then signed Leno who has been (for the most part) pretty decent), signed Tierney in the last window (one for the future but sadly crocked nearly the whole time), Saliba (who everyone is now craving to pull back from loan). One more CB and RB and one could argue that rebuild was nearly there - as some of us sensible folk called for - done over two whole seasons and four full windows as sadly we don't have 200m to buy Stones, Danilo, Mendy, Walker etc all in one hit.....and we certainly can't afford for any of them not to hit the ground running

Similarly in midfield - Shit for Brains left us with nothing. Dick got more of a tune out of Ramsey in his last year (thanks to the board for another free departure) and brought in two holders in Torreira and Guendouzi for a combined £35m. He was stuck with Xhaka as is Arteta as no c.unt wants him (I read today that Hertha only taking him on loan :banghead: )

With regards to Arteta - on the contrary - I will give him more time to sort out this mess than most on here. He needs the rest of this season and the whole of the next one to come close to addressing a decade of decline (as did Emery).

I rejoice in telling Wenger luvvies everywhere that the man did more damage to this football club in the past 10 years, than he did good in the first 12 and despite the usual abuse, I believe that is being played out today. Whether people like it or not, Emery is a very accomplished coach who performed miracles with next to no cash at Valencia and Sevilla. He also achieved more with PSG than Marco Silva Mark II (Tuchel) ever has. I still believe he could have returned us to the CL places but we will never know

The main point of my posts however, is that people are forgetting all the things that Emery inherited but happily using those things now to defend Arteta (losing mentality, players attitude, board, lack of funds etc) which isn't consistent. As said before, and what I've always done on here, if the guy turns out to do great things and improve us more than Emery, I will be the first to hold my hands up and say so.

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augie
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Re: Unai Emery

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"The main point of my posts however, is that people are forgetting all the things that Emery inherited but happily using those things now to defend Arteta (losing mentality, players attitude, board, lack of funds etc) which isn't consistent"

The above quote from Steve O's post is what resonates with me most too - dick inherited the mother and father of all shitfests, but in less than 12 months he had improved us hugely to the point that we should have got top 4 (that we didn't is also partially down to him). The slide started for him when he started challenging the "star players" in our squad, and by daring to freeze them out if they did not make those expectations - emery came to us with a reputation of being unable to control star players at psg, and of course our top players seized on that and started a behind closed doors campaign to undermine him. The proper move would have been to continue to weed out these players from the club and continue with a policy of bringing in young hungry players, but (to me at least) it seemed that the younger players were being corrupted and were downing tools and he had to go then.
It is the lack of consistency from some fans which is getting on my tits too - some fans wanted dick gone regardless, but are now using excuses/reasons for arteta which existed in dicks tenure but no allowances were made in dicks case.

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GoonerMuzz
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Re: Unai Emery

Post by GoonerMuzz »

I get exactly what you are both saying but as soon as Emery lost the dressing room he was fucked, I dont blame him for that but the players, but there was no way he was going to regain the dressing room and for me had to go. As i said unfortunately in football it so much cheaper to replace one man than 6 or 7.

If results hadn't gone south he'd probably lasted until the end of the season where some prudence in the transfer market might have worked in his favour, getting rid of the trouble makers and dross for a start but again the issue would have been too many players requiring replacing at the same time and from the reports some of them being our 'best' players the cost would have been astronomical.

If I'm honest though even with a better group of players I still dont think Emery would have been successful he just didnt seem to understand the EPL and was too much of a tinkerer.

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Re: Unai Emery

Post by Jock Gooner »

"The main point of my posts however, is that people are forgetting all the things that Emery inherited but happily using those things now to defend Arteta (losing mentality, players attitude, board, lack of funds etc) which isn't consistent"


Not true - we all knew that Dick was inheriting a shitfest and we were all for giving him a chance to overcome those factors. He wasn't able to make it work and if anything the team is in a worse state now than when Dick arrived. That isn't Arteta's doing but he isn't getting any more of a break over the problems than Dick did.

The real assessment of Arteta will come after we get Leeds out of the way and we start to see whether he can make a difference. Let's see if he can keep the dressing room onside and build a side out of what we have in the squad. If he makes an arse of it then I have no doubt that he'll be called out too.

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SteveO 35
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Re: Unai Emery

Post by SteveO 35 »

Jock Gooner wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 4:19 pm
"The main point of my posts however, is that people are forgetting all the things that Emery inherited but happily using those things now to defend Arteta (losing mentality, players attitude, board, lack of funds etc) which isn't consistent"


Not true - we all knew that Dick was inheriting a shitfest and we were all for giving him a chance to overcome those factors. He wasn't able to make it work and if anything the team is in a worse state now than when Dick arrived. That isn't Arteta's doing but he isn't getting any more of a break over the problems than Dick did.

The real assessment of Arteta will come after we get Leeds out of the way and we start to see whether he can make a difference. Let's see if he can keep the dressing room onside and build a side out of what we have in the squad. If he makes an arse of it then I have no doubt that he'll be called out too.
How on earth you work that one out mate I'm not sure

Leno vs Cech

Torreira/Guendouzi vs Xhaka/Elneny

Tierney vs Kolasinac

Pepe vs Mkhitaryan

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GoonerMuzz
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Re: Unai Emery

Post by GoonerMuzz »

Steve you are right the players a prospectively better but the team is arguably worse, I actually felt our summer signings, Luiz aside, were fairly good but for whatever reason we've gotten worse as a team. This points to what we all suspect that the longer term players are the issue but as we've seen we seem to be stuck with the buggers and that is dragging down the new players rather than the new players pulling the whole squad up.

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SteveO 35
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Re: Unai Emery

Post by SteveO 35 »

GoonerMuzz wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 4:37 pm
Steve you are right the players a prospectively better but the team is arguably worse, I actually felt our summer signings, Luiz aside, were fairly good but for whatever reason we've gotten worse as a team. This points to what we all suspect that the longer term players are the issue but as we've seen we seem to be stuck with the buggers and that is dragging down the new players rather than the new players pulling the whole squad up.
Don't disagree with that mate - more time was needed to oust the wasters and those that have grown up under Wenger's cosy club. Of course if our c.unt of an owner put a single penny of his own money in to invest our way out of the problem, it could all have been done sooner

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Re: Unai Emery

Post by Jock Gooner »

SteveO 35 wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 4:24 pm
Jock Gooner wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 4:19 pm
"The main point of my posts however, is that people are forgetting all the things that Emery inherited but happily using those things now to defend Arteta (losing mentality, players attitude, board, lack of funds etc) which isn't consistent"


Not true - we all knew that Dick was inheriting a shitfest and we were all for giving him a chance to overcome those factors. He wasn't able to make it work and if anything the team is in a worse state now than when Dick arrived. That isn't Arteta's doing but he isn't getting any more of a break over the problems than Dick did.

The real assessment of Arteta will come after we get Leeds out of the way and we start to see whether he can make a difference. Let's see if he can keep the dressing room onside and build a side out of what we have in the squad. If he makes an arse of it then I have no doubt that he'll be called out too.
How on earth you work that one out mate I'm not sure

Leno vs Cech

Torreira/Guendouzi vs Xhaka/Elneny

Tierney vs Kolasinac

Pepe vs Mkhitaryan

I was talking about the team as a unit but if we're going to play top trumps.

Tierney is never fit and you forget to mention Monreal over Kolasinac. Dick had Torreira and Guendouzi available to him in his first season but usually chose Xhaka over them and didn't get a tune out of Pepe this season before he went so I'm not sure there is much mileage in any of that.

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SteveO 35
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Re: Unai Emery

Post by SteveO 35 »

Jock Gooner wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 4:46 pm
SteveO 35 wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 4:24 pm
Jock Gooner wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 4:19 pm
"The main point of my posts however, is that people are forgetting all the things that Emery inherited but happily using those things now to defend Arteta (losing mentality, players attitude, board, lack of funds etc) which isn't consistent"


Not true - we all knew that Dick was inheriting a shitfest and we were all for giving him a chance to overcome those factors. He wasn't able to make it work and if anything the team is in a worse state now than when Dick arrived. That isn't Arteta's doing but he isn't getting any more of a break over the problems than Dick did.

The real assessment of Arteta will come after we get Leeds out of the way and we start to see whether he can make a difference. Let's see if he can keep the dressing room onside and build a side out of what we have in the squad. If he makes an arse of it then I have no doubt that he'll be called out too.
How on earth you work that one out mate I'm not sure

Leno vs Cech

Torreira/Guendouzi vs Xhaka/Elneny

Tierney vs Kolasinac

Pepe vs Mkhitaryan

I was talking about the team as a unit but if we're going to play top trumps.

Tierney is never fit and you forget to mention Monreal over Kolasinac. Dick had Torreira and Guendouzi available to him in his first season but usually chose Xhaka over them and didn't get a tune out of Pepe this season before he went so I'm not sure there is much mileage in any of that.
Well if's all about the coaching, I'm sure we won't have long to wait for the new super coach to get a tune out of all of them

Jock Gooner
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Re: Unai Emery

Post by Jock Gooner »

SteveO 35 wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 4:49 pm
Jock Gooner wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 4:46 pm
SteveO 35 wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 4:24 pm
Jock Gooner wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 4:19 pm
"The main point of my posts however, is that people are forgetting all the things that Emery inherited but happily using those things now to defend Arteta (losing mentality, players attitude, board, lack of funds etc) which isn't consistent"


Not true - we all knew that Dick was inheriting a shitfest and we were all for giving him a chance to overcome those factors. He wasn't able to make it work and if anything the team is in a worse state now than when Dick arrived. That isn't Arteta's doing but he isn't getting any more of a break over the problems than Dick did.

The real assessment of Arteta will come after we get Leeds out of the way and we start to see whether he can make a difference. Let's see if he can keep the dressing room onside and build a side out of what we have in the squad. If he makes an arse of it then I have no doubt that he'll be called out too.
How on earth you work that one out mate I'm not sure

Leno vs Cech

Torreira/Guendouzi vs Xhaka/Elneny

Tierney vs Kolasinac

Pepe vs Mkhitaryan

I was talking about the team as a unit but if we're going to play top trumps.

Tierney is never fit and you forget to mention Monreal over Kolasinac. Dick had Torreira and Guendouzi available to him in his first season but usually chose Xhaka over them and didn't get a tune out of Pepe this season before he went so I'm not sure there is much mileage in any of that.
Well if's all about the coaching, I'm sure we won't have long to wait for the new super coach to get a tune out of all of them
As we know there is a whole lot more wrong with the club these days than just the coaching but we'll find out in due course whether Arteta is capable or not. I don't think he's the answer but he is what we have now so I will get behind him and the team and if we do see some more signs of progress then good luck to him.

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