VAR

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augie
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Re: VAR

Post by augie »

Bradywasking wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:14 am
Yesterday was a defining day for VAR in the Premier League and it failed miserably. I would rather take my chances with human error than this corrupt clusterfuck.
I watched the Arsenal incidents again this morning and cannot see why the Arsenal goal was disallowed. Looked at referee Atkinson's sheepish look when making a half hearted TV screen shape with his hand and disallowing the goal..It's as if he knows it is wrong but beyond his control.
Meanwhile at Anfield Liverpool need a goal so they get a penalty..Aurier is clearly attempting to clear the ball, he seems in control of the situation until Mane sticks his left leg in to block the kick and once he feels contact on his leg then it he is "entitled to go down"..
At Carrow Rd two players running alongside each other with minimal contact results in a penalty for Man Utd. Pattern forming here, ie the favoured clubs get the calls.
There was no review of the Sokratis or Saka penalty incidents at Bramall Lane, why not? Maybe the findings of the review would be too awkward.
The authorities and media are desperate for Liverpool to win the title so expect many more decisions in their favour between now and May....
Football was supposed to be cleaned up by VAR, no more contentious calls. What is evident now is that VAR is selective. Calls are subjective in a studio so why not leave these subjective calls to a referee on a pitch who can get a feel for a situation rather than someone sitting in a studio miles away. ?
How can it be sure and certain that the person in the studio hasn't a motive or is under pressure to influence a game and result?
Anyway it's here to stay unless referees call it out for what it is..Maybe VAR has a place in non subjective calls like offside, but it was never meant to be open to interpretation.



Have I not said this all along ?? Some fools believed that VAR would be a solution and improvement for the game, but I knew it was always gonna cause outrage cos the whole concept promotes the idea of 100% accuracy and these c.unts aint anywhere near 50% :roll: If this is the best we can expect from VAR then it should be binned straight away. UEFA have already punished premier league for not having refs go to sideline monitors, so we may as well go the whole hog and tell them to shove it up their ar.se :evil: If you fcuk about with the flow and speed of the games, then you sure as shit better get the decisions right then - there is absolutely no defending the decision to disallow the winner yesterday, but the fans and meeja wanted var so now we are stuck with it :(

The Arsenal Way
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Re: VAR

Post by The Arsenal Way »

"Jarred Gillett was the VAR official for Arsenal's clash with Palace. A 32-year-old Australian, Gillett has never taken charge of a Premier League game, with his refereeing experience in England limited to nine Football League fixtures."


Aussie, Aussie, Aussie.
Oi, Oi, Oi.

:D

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Perryashburtongroves
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Re: VAR

Post by Perryashburtongroves »

The idea that game-changing decisions are being made by anonymous observers in a TV studio somewhere who seem to decide at random when or how an offence has occurred only serves to show how bent football is. VAR should only be used to decide if a player is offside when it leads to a goal or whether a player has obviously been fouled in or outside the box or whether he has dived. Handballs are totally subjective as stated in the original laws of the game, so how on earth it is supposed to be cleared up by looking at something a hundred times, I have no idea. There is still far too much inconsistency. On Monday, we had a shirt-pull not reviewed and nobody can seem to explain why it wasn't. If there is any offence in the box at a corner, then why are they not all being looked at. Twenty minutes later, the ref decides that one of our players has dived, books him and it isn't reviewed. Again, why not and in what way was it different to yesterday? Why isn't every incident in the box reviewed then? It is so open to abuse it is laughable. The FA know that the game can't be stopped every two seconds to look at something but if you use video evidence, you have to do it every time. There can be no grey areas and right now, there are far too many. Nobody seems in any way aware of how the whole review system works, whether the referee asks for it, why the reviewer looks at something and why he doesn't. They should also be broadcasting the conversations between the ref and the reviewer so there is transparency. Every single person should be kept informed of why decisions are being made and why a decision was reached. Cricket realised this years ago and now every third umpire decision gets broadcast so that everyone knows what is going on, what the tv umpire is looking at and why he has reached his decision. What we have here in football right now, is another broken system that the FA and Premier League know isn't trustworthy and consistent so instead of making it more transparent, they are doing their usual and hiding behind lies and bullshit and basically crossing their arms and telling people to fuck off and deal with it, like a spoilt brat five year old child.
At the end of the day, if a referee or linesman misses something so obvious that it leads to a goal being scored or chalked off, then they are unfit to do the job and need to be sanctioned. Right now, the paying public and the players need to know where we all stand. The TV twat watching needs to inform the ref or vice-versa and then the agreement needs to be that the ref goes over to the monitor, which is broadcast on the screens or at home on TV and given 5 angles or one minute to watch an incident at full-speed twice and twice at half-speed before deciding whether or not to overturn a decision. For an off-side, it will take 20 seconds, for a foul or handball, five replays and the question "Is there enough evidence from what you've now seen to over-turn the decision" should take one minute. Spending five fucking minutes slowing everything down to one frame at a time is fucking stupid and will only lead to every decision being a foul. Quite frankly, anybody can find a foul or handball if you look hard enough or really want to. Finally, I'll make the point that by actually using the VAR properly and putting a framework in place for a time-limit on decisions, people might actually have a growing respect for the job of a ref, much like in cricket, where everybody now realises that the job is fucking difficult if, after a load of replays, there is still doubt.

Gunner Rob
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Re: VAR

Post by Gunner Rob »

VAR has 2 problems

1. it is open to corruption
2. it makes the game unwatchable because no one has a clue what is going on

Clash
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Re: VAR

Post by Clash »

Perryashburtongroves wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:36 am
The idea that game-changing decisions are being made by anonymous observers in a TV studio somewhere who seem to decide at random when or how an offence has occurred only serves to show how bent football is. VAR should only be used to decide if a player is offside when it leads to a goal or whether a player has obviously been fouled in or outside the box or whether he has dived. Handballs are totally subjective as stated in the original laws of the game, so how on earth it is supposed to be cleared up by looking at something a hundred times, I have no idea. There is still far too much inconsistency. On Monday, we had a shirt-pull not reviewed and nobody can seem to explain why it wasn't. If there is any offence in the box at a corner, then why are they not all being looked at. Twenty minutes later, the ref decides that one of our players has dived, books him and it isn't reviewed. Again, why not and in what way was it different to yesterday? Why isn't every incident in the box reviewed then? It is so open to abuse it is laughable. The FA know that the game can't be stopped every two seconds to look at something but if you use video evidence, you have to do it every time. There can be no grey areas and right now, there are far too many. Nobody seems in any way aware of how the whole review system works, whether the referee asks for it, why the reviewer looks at something and why he doesn't. They should also be broadcasting the conversations between the ref and the reviewer so there is transparency. Every single person should be kept informed of why decisions are being made and why a decision was reached. Cricket realised this years ago and now every third umpire decision gets broadcast so that everyone knows what is going on, what the tv umpire is looking at and why he has reached his decision. What we have here in football right now, is another broken system that the FA and Premier League know isn't trustworthy and consistent so instead of making it more transparent, they are doing their usual and hiding behind lies and bullshit and basically crossing their arms and telling people to fuck off and deal with it, like a spoilt brat five year old child.
At the end of the day, if a referee or linesman misses something so obvious that it leads to a goal being scored or chalked off, then they are unfit to do the job and need to be sanctioned. Right now, the paying public and the players need to know where we all stand. The TV twat watching needs to inform the ref or vice-versa and then the agreement needs to be that the ref goes over to the monitor, which is broadcast on the screens or at home on TV and given 5 angles or one minute to watch an incident at full-speed twice and twice at half-speed before deciding whether or not to overturn a decision. For an off-side, it will take 20 seconds, for a foul or handball, five replays and the question "Is there enough evidence from what you've now seen to over-turn the decision" should take one minute. Spending five fucking minutes slowing everything down to one frame at a time is fucking stupid and will only lead to every decision being a foul. Quite frankly, anybody can find a foul or handball if you look hard enough or really want to. Finally, I'll make the point that by actually using the VAR properly and putting a framework in place for a time-limit on decisions, people might actually have a growing respect for the job of a ref, much like in cricket, where everybody now realises that the job is fucking difficult if, after a load of replays, there is still doubt.
Fantastic post Perry, agree with every word!

I am still fuming over yesterday. I've hated VAR from the beginning but its even worse than I thought it was gonna be. Goal line technology is as far as we need to go. Offside at the very most and even then only the most blatant.

But yesterday ... what a DISGRACE! If the ref had ruled it out it would have been bad enough but at least you could say he only got one look and had to make a split second decision. But to review that and rule it out defies belief!

And anyone who still doesnt think this system is corrupt or potentially corrupt ... ask yourself this ... would that very same goal have been ruled out if it was Liverpool getting a late winner at the Kop end? I think we all know the answer!

Liverpool winning the league is as lucrative for TV as Man United winning it. Maybe more so as its been so long since then last won it. We all know money has ruined the game but where does it end?

We are now at a point where TV / studio based officials are able to influence results. How can that be healthy? TV already dictates fixture lists, kick off times and all sorts of things now. How do we know there isn't some behind the scenes ''persuasion'' happening with VAR?

Admittedly I cannot see what stopping us getting a late winner against Palace would achieve but it shows how fucked up they system is!

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augie
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Re: VAR

Post by augie »

Perryashburtongroves wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:36 am
The idea that game-changing decisions are being made by anonymous observers in a TV studio somewhere who seem to decide at random when or how an offence has occurred only serves to show how bent football is. VAR should only be used to decide if a player is offside when it leads to a goal or whether a player has obviously been fouled in or outside the box or whether he has dived. Handballs are totally subjective as stated in the original laws of the game, so how on earth it is supposed to be cleared up by looking at something a hundred times, I have no idea. There is still far too much inconsistency. On Monday, we had a shirt-pull not reviewed and nobody can seem to explain why it wasn't. If there is any offence in the box at a corner, then why are they not all being looked at. Twenty minutes later, the ref decides that one of our players has dived, books him and it isn't reviewed. Again, why not and in what way was it different to yesterday? Why isn't every incident in the box reviewed then? It is so open to abuse it is laughable. The FA know that the game can't be stopped every two seconds to look at something but if you use video evidence, you have to do it every time. There can be no grey areas and right now, there are far too many. Nobody seems in any way aware of how the whole review system works, whether the referee asks for it, why the reviewer looks at something and why he doesn't. They should also be broadcasting the conversations between the ref and the reviewer so there is transparency. Every single person should be kept informed of why decisions are being made and why a decision was reached. Cricket realised this years ago and now every third umpire decision gets broadcast so that everyone knows what is going on, what the tv umpire is looking at and why he has reached his decision. What we have here in football right now, is another broken system that the FA and Premier League know isn't trustworthy and consistent so instead of making it more transparent, they are doing their usual and hiding behind lies and bullshit and basically crossing their arms and telling people to fuck off and deal with it, like a spoilt brat five year old child.
At the end of the day, if a referee or linesman misses something so obvious that it leads to a goal being scored or chalked off, then they are unfit to do the job and need to be sanctioned. Right now, the paying public and the players need to know where we all stand. The TV twat watching needs to inform the ref or vice-versa and then the agreement needs to be that the ref goes over to the monitor, which is broadcast on the screens or at home on TV and given 5 angles or one minute to watch an incident at full-speed twice and twice at half-speed before deciding whether or not to overturn a decision. For an off-side, it will take 20 seconds, for a foul or handball, five replays and the question "Is there enough evidence from what you've now seen to over-turn the decision" should take one minute. Spending five fucking minutes slowing everything down to one frame at a time is fucking stupid and will only lead to every decision being a foul. Quite frankly, anybody can find a foul or handball if you look hard enough or really want to. Finally, I'll make the point that by actually using the VAR properly and putting a framework in place for a time-limit on decisions, people might actually have a growing respect for the job of a ref, much like in cricket, where everybody now realises that the job is fucking difficult if, after a load of replays, there is still doubt.




The ONLY issue that technology should be used for is goal line decisions cos everything else is subjective and leads to more arguments. The highlighted parts are exactly what happened yesterday, and yet you are advocating still giving these d.ickheads the powerto decide games like this ?? :shock: :shock:

A11M11
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Re: VAR

Post by A11M11 »

Referees are now subservient to a guy in a studio ?
Was it not to be used to advise and allow the ref to look again ?

Clash
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Re: VAR

Post by Clash »

augie wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:19 pm

The ONLY issue that technology should be used for is goal line decisions cos everything else is subjective and leads to more arguments. The highlighted parts are exactly what happened yesterday, and yet you are advocating still giving these d.ickheads the powerto decide games like this ?? :shock: :shock:
You're right Augie. Having said I agree with every word Perry said, I actually do not agree with the part you highlighted.

As we've said before, goal-line technology works because it is instant and factual. The other stuff is not!

A11M11 wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:26 pm
Referees are now subservient to a guy in a studio ?
Was it not to be used to advise and allow the ref to look again ?
And why are they in a studio? Why are they not pitch side looking at the screen so they can consult directly with the ref on the pitch? The one person who should ultimately make the final decision!

I would have been tempted to put my boot through that VAR monitor yesterday and rip the connections out. If they're not gonna use it then why the hell is is there!?

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Re: VAR

Post by Almunia is a clown »

Almunia is a clown wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:02 am
Goal line technology is more than enough, VAR takes ages & still the decisions are often debatable. :evil:

Fouls & offside in the penalty area is about as far as it should go if you really must have VAR, if any of this happens before the play enters the box this should be ignored, anyway the referee linesman should already have pulled up play for incidents outside the area. :cussing: :cussing:

It takes ages as well, that England womens penalty appeal was farcical. Seemed almost 5 minutes? :rubchin:

Even Hurling has had Hawkeye the last few seasons, but VAR would totally destroy that game if it ever came in. They are already clamping down on rough tackles, the sort you got in winter football back in the '60's & '70's, shoulder barges, sandwich tackles are proper old school & should never have been abolished! :box:
Like most fans I knew VAR was 'gonna be shite, now as predicted there are calls for VAR in Hurling FFS! Bring back old school Football, with proper tackles, sliding tackles & grizzly defenders, mad goalies & terraces plus cheap awayday travel like in Germany! Bollox to VAR & modern football! :barscarf:

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Re: VAR

Post by Rian1 »

Honestly, I'd actually be okay with losing to an offside goal than this bullshit of VAR and what they are doing to the game. I sat across from the foul on Zaha, how the fuck did Atkinson the top cūnt not see the leg out from Chambers(?).

Then moving onto the winner... according to some prick in MK we are told Atkinson made a clear and obvious error when replays show Chambers was pushed and shoved by the ex-chav Cahill and the Palace penalty muppet Milivojevic. In no other country apart from England this would be overturned. Chambers didn't kick or push any player.

What the actual fuck is the point to have VAR monitors across all grounds when this is not even used. That is there to be used when Referee decision does NOT match with what VAR says. Go have a look instead of listening to VAR like it's God speaking to you directly. Bundesliga uses it regularly and that's how it should be.

I hope Atkinson is ashamed of what he did yesterday. Any slight contact, Palace foul. Two very wrong decisions that he overturned by following instructions. Honestly hope the league has a word with him, he ruined a game yesterday. I would say the same thing if I was on the losing end too. I am anti VAR for and against my team. If I win with an offside goal, I'll take. If I lose with one, I'll suck it up.

Using pencils and drawing lines for offside but the knobs can't determine what is foul and what is not.

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Perryashburtongroves
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Re: VAR

Post by Perryashburtongroves »

Clash wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:33 pm
augie wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:19 pm

The ONLY issue that technology should be used for is goal line decisions cos everything else is subjective and leads to more arguments. The highlighted parts are exactly what happened yesterday, and yet you are advocating still giving these d.ickheads the powerto decide games like this ?? :shock: :shock:
You're right Augie. Having said I agree with every word Perry said, I actually do not agree with the part you highlighted.

As we've said before, goal-line technology works because it is instant and factual. The other stuff is not!

A11M11 wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:26 pm
Referees are now subservient to a guy in a studio ?
Was it not to be used to advise and allow the ref to look again ?
And why are they in a studio? Why are they not pitch side looking at the screen so they can consult directly with the ref on the pitch? The one person who should ultimately make the final decision!

I would have been tempted to put my boot through that VAR monitor yesterday and rip the connections out. If they're not gonna use it then why the hell is is there!?
That's the big, big problem. Right now, the system isn't instantaneous or factual. They're still guessing for offsides and the Mail on Sunday ran a piece a few weeks back highlighting how it is unreliable. If there is a glaring error, it has to be looked at - like us at Manure- but some of the ones which have been ruled out are simply guesswork and dependent on the whim of the bloke looking at it. That is not fair and reliable. The problem then becomes how glaringly obvious is glaring enough? Fuck knows. It's all a total mess.
I absolutely agree that the TV officials should he pitchside or at least in the ground. Sitting in a fucking tv studio is ridiculous. They claim it's to ensure rational and neutral decision making but quite frankly, if they can't be neutral or might be swayed by a crowd, then they need to be fucking sacked from doing the job. For years, everybody involved in football has asked for greater accountability from referees and the need for them to offer explanations for their decisions and now, what the governing bodies have done, is allow even greater levels of unaccountability and self-important aloofness. At the end of the day, we only have to have this shit because referees and linesmen weren't up to doing the jobs properly in the first place. Everyone has to suffer because of their repeated incompetence and corrupt decision making.

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GoonerMuzz
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Re: VAR

Post by GoonerMuzz »

Manc Scum colleague of mine made a good point today, why if it is supposed to be a clear and obvious error do they have to review it multiple times before a decision is made, if it takes two minutes to come to a conclusion then by definition it cant be clear and obvious.

Even he was bewildered over why our goal was chopped off.

VAR could have been a decent thing if specifically limited to clear cut decisions such as offside, lets be honest an instant replay on the big screen would mean less confusion but instead it is a farce which is being forced through to enhance the entertainment value of soccerball. Football is no longer a sport for the fans but an entertainment for the masses which has to have controversy even where none is needed to ensure the armchair bound fans around the world get maximum thrill value :puke:

Red Snapper
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Re: VAR

Post by Red Snapper »

Have Arsenal been on the positive side of a VAR decision yet apart from the blatant one at OT which would have made them look absolute morons had they not overturned the decision?

Football as a spectacle died for me yesterday. Goals are now just the opening of a discussion.

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Bradywasking
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Re: VAR

Post by Bradywasking »

Clash wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:04 am
Perryashburtongroves wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:36 am
The idea that game-changing decisions are being made by anonymous observers in a TV studio somewhere who seem to decide at random when or how an offence has occurred only serves to show how bent football is. VAR should only be used to decide if a player is offside when it leads to a goal or whether a player has obviously been fouled in or outside the box or whether he has dived. Handballs are totally subjective as stated in the original laws of the game, so how on earth it is supposed to be cleared up by looking at something a hundred times, I have no idea. There is still far too much inconsistency. On Monday, we had a shirt-pull not reviewed and nobody can seem to explain why it wasn't. If there is any offence in the box at a corner, then why are they not all being looked at. Twenty minutes later, the ref decides that one of our players has dived, books him and it isn't reviewed. Again, why not and in what way was it different to yesterday? Why isn't every incident in the box reviewed then? It is so open to abuse it is laughable. The FA know that the game can't be stopped every two seconds to look at something but if you use video evidence, you have to do it every time. There can be no grey areas and right now, there are far too many. Nobody seems in any way aware of how the whole review system works, whether the referee asks for it, why the reviewer looks at something and why he doesn't. They should also be broadcasting the conversations between the ref and the reviewer so there is transparency. Every single person should be kept informed of why decisions are being made and why a decision was reached. Cricket realised this years ago and now every third umpire decision gets broadcast so that everyone knows what is going on, what the tv umpire is looking at and why he has reached his decision. What we have here in football right now, is another broken system that the FA and Premier League know isn't trustworthy and consistent so instead of making it more transparent, they are doing their usual and hiding behind lies and bullshit and basically crossing their arms and telling people to fuck off and deal with it, like a spoilt brat five year old child.
At the end of the day, if a referee or linesman misses something so obvious that it leads to a goal being scored or chalked off, then they are unfit to do the job and need to be sanctioned. Right now, the paying public and the players need to know where we all stand. The TV twat watching needs to inform the ref or vice-versa and then the agreement needs to be that the ref goes over to the monitor, which is broadcast on the screens or at home on TV and given 5 angles or one minute to watch an incident at full-speed twice and twice at half-speed before deciding whether or not to overturn a decision. For an off-side, it will take 20 seconds, for a foul or handball, five replays and the question "Is there enough evidence from what you've now seen to over-turn the decision" should take one minute. Spending five fucking minutes slowing everything down to one frame at a time is fucking stupid and will only lead to every decision being a foul. Quite frankly, anybody can find a foul or handball if you look hard enough or really want to. Finally, I'll make the point that by actually using the VAR properly and putting a framework in place for a time-limit on decisions, people might actually have a growing respect for the job of a ref, much like in cricket, where everybody now realises that the job is fucking difficult if, after a load of replays, there is still doubt.
Fantastic post Perry, agree with every word!

I am still fuming over yesterday. I've hated VAR from the beginning but its even worse than I thought it was gonna be. Goal line technology is as far as we need to go. Offside at the very most and even then only the most blatant.

But yesterday ... what a DISGRACE! If the ref had ruled it out it would have been bad enough but at least you could say he only got one look and had to make a split second decision. But to review that and rule it out defies belief!

And anyone who still doesnt think this system is corrupt or potentially corrupt ... ask yourself this ... would that very same goal have been ruled out if it was Liverpool getting a late winner at the Kop end? I think we all know the answer!

Liverpool winning the league is as lucrative for TV as Man United winning it. Maybe more so as its been so long since then last won it. We all know money has ruined the game but where does it end?

We are now at a point where TV / studio based officials are able to influence results. How can that be healthy? TV already dictates fixture lists, kick off times and all sorts of things now. How do we know there isn't some behind the scenes ''persuasion'' happening with VAR?

Admittedly I cannot see what stopping us getting a late winner against Palace would achieve but it shows how fucked up they system is!
That is the problem, and I am not throwing out accusations here, but no one knows what stopping Arsenal scoring a winner v Palace would achieve. But if you let your imagination run wild then stopping a team winning could be very lucrative.

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Re: VAR

Post by DB10GOONER »

VAR has all but killed the game. I now hate watching football. The spontaneity of celebrating a goal has been nullified. We might as well be watching tedious fucking homo ball rugby ffs. :roll:

And it is no more accurate or foolproof than a referee. Two major decisions in our game and both incorrect. Saha dived. 100 percent dived. He moved his leg to Chambers' leg to initiate the contact.  That's a dive. The ref got it right. The VAR cùnt fucked it. Saha is a very clever diver but still a fucking diver. :censored:

As for our disallowed goal? Shameful decision. NEVER A FREE OUT. IT WAS A COMING TOGETHER. And worse - Chambers is actually fouled TWICE before his alleged foul ffs. Their defender pushes him and then Kouyate trips him a split second before the coming together of Chambers and Milowhateverthefuck. The camera angle from behind the goal clearly showed it. And now we find out some fucking statto amateur fucking ref with ZERO premier league experience made the decisions? :censored:

Fuck VAR and fuck modern football.  :censored:

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