The Arsenal captain 2019/20

As we're unlikely to see terraces again at football, this is the virtual equivalent where you can chat to your hearts content about all football matters and, obviously, Arsenal in particular. This forum encourages all Gooners to visit and contribute so please keep it respectful, clean and topical.
Redarmy
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Re: The Arsenal captain 2019/20

Postby Redarmy » Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:38 pm

" I thought football's greatest honour was to captain England. I was wrong. It was to captain Arsenal today."...Joe Mercer said that following Arsenal's defeat to Newcastle in the 1952 FA Cup Final...

It is a quote I never tire of reading because it reminds me of how special our club once was.
Thats a great quote.....

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wibble
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Re: The Arsenal captain 2019/20

Postby wibble » Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:20 pm

Very interesting article Herbert, thanks for posting.
Can’t quite see our current crop digging in with the same guts and determination (or any of today’s players to be fair!)

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Re: The Arsenal captain 2019/20

Postby DB10GOONER » Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:43 am

" I thought football's greatest honour was to captain England. I was wrong. It was to captain Arsenal today."...Joe Mercer said that following Arsenal's defeat to Newcastle in the 1952 FA Cup Final...

It is a quote I never tire of reading because it reminds me of how special our club once was.
Great quote and I have never heard it before so I googled the game and it come up with this article and why he was so proud that day,

ADDRESSING the men he was about to lead against Newcastle United in the 1952 FA Cup final, by then in his 38th year, Joe Mercer declared, "Don't forget - nobody starts favourites against Arsenal."

If stirred by their captain's call to arms, the horse players in Arsenal's line-up were not inclined to disagree with the odds that had been laid against them.

Mercer was taking out a team stricken by illness and injuries. Welsh international Ray Daniel wore a protective covering over the plaster cast that encased a broken wrist; Jimmy Logie, his right thigh strapped could barely conceal a limp; Doug Lishman, like Logie, not long out of hospital hadn't completely shaken off the effects of blood poisoning. Cliff Holton, the only fully-fit centre- forward available to Arsenal's manager, Tom Whittaker, was turning out in his first FA Cup tie.

Speaking last week from Johannesburg, his home for more than 30 years, Alex Forbes, the Scottish international who was at right-half for Arsenal said, "Things got so bad I imagined us turning up at Wembley in an ambulance. Even Arsenal fans among the gamblers I mixed with in those days were betting against us."


Arsenal's troubles began after defeating Chelsea in a replayed semi-final to set up a possible championship and Cup double 19 years before their north London rivals Tottenham Hotspur became the first club to achieve it this century.

Playing three games in four days over Easter (in those days a feature of the League programme) Arsenal were left counting their wounded. First Daniel, who broke a wrist in collision with Stan Mortensen at Blackpool on Good Friday. At Bolton, the following day, Daniel's veteran deputy, Leslie Compton, pulled a muscle. Forty-eight hours later (and the present crop of players complain of strain!) Logie was badly hurt against Newcastle at Highbury when Arsenal also lost Arthur Shaw, their third centre- half in successive matches.

A 3-1 defeat at West Bromwich with five reserves in the team left Arsenal with the task of winning 7-0 at Old Trafford to gain the League title ahead of Manchester United. Whittaker conceded in a telegram to Matt Busby - "All at Arsenal send sincere congratulations on a worthy championship success."

In an autobiography Tom Whittaker's Arsenal Story published shortly before his death in 1956, Whittaker went over the trials that quickly followed. "Up in Newcastle my rival manager and old friend, Stan Seymour, in a radio interview, was saying: `All these stories about injuries from Highbury may be just a trick by Tom Whittaker to put us off our guard.' Oh Stan, if you only knew what went on at Highbury in those desperate and disappointing weeks."

Forty-six years on, Forbes, now 73 and together with goalkeeper George Swindin and outside-left Don Roper one of three members of the 1952 team still living, recalls fear of an epidemic in the dressing-room. "When Jimmy [Logie] followed Doug Lishman into hospital we began to wonder about conditions in the treatment room, something that hadn't occurred to us before because they were supposed to be the best."

Whittaker, formerly the club's physiotherapist, ordered all equipment to be removed and sterilised. Training refuse was immediately burned. "One joke was that a sign should be painted on the dressing-room doors to show where the dead could be picked up but the seriousness of the situation didn't escape us," Forbes recalled.

Bought from Sheffield United for pounds 12,000 in 1948 after making five of 14 appearances in Scotland's colours, Forbes was both skilful and hard, his balance a reminder that he could have made a name in ice hockey. A key figure when Arsenal defeated Liverpool 2 -0 to win the FA Cup two years earlier he approached the 1952 final worrying about his great pal Logie.

It isn't the benefit of hindsight that persuades Forbes to think that Logie should not have been sent out against Newcastle. "He was a sick man, really sick. There was a hole in his leg where the poison had been drained and by rights he should have still been in hospital. I'm sure it couldn't happen today but things then were a lot different. There was only the championship and the Cup to play for and without Jimmy, who was a brilliant inside-forward, we had no chance of beating Newcastle."

One night in the sweet long ago Forbes told of Logie's disappearance from Arsenal's dressing-room at Wembley before the 1950 final. "We were out of the tunnel and almost onto the pitch when he trotted out," Forbes recalled. "When we lined up for the presentations I heard his voice. `Alex,' he shouted, `it got beat, Alex.' We'd backed a dog in the 2.30 and Jimmy had sneaked into the ambulance room to get the result. The wee man was nerveless but in 1952 I wept for him."

Arsenal's run of bad luck (hundreds of suggestions including lucky charms and potions had been received at Highbury) continued into the final. After only 18 minutes Wally Barnes was crippled when attempting to block Jackie Milburn. With Roper moving to right-back the Welshman limped on to the wing, but it was soon obvious that he could not continue, leaving Arsenal (no substitutes then) a man short for the time that remained.

It became known as one of their finest hours. Daniel carried on bravely despite a fall that again broke the partly knitted bone in his wrist. But, in truth, Arsenal were down to nine men. "By then Jimmy [Logie] was knackered," Forbes recalled. "He could hardly stand up and was sent to play on the right wing."

With just 20 minutes left, Newcastle's manager, Seymour, grew restive. Turning to Reg Davies, a young Welsh inside-forward and future international recently signed from Southend United, he said, "This isn't good enough. If it isn't settled today you'll be selected for the replay."

The words were hardly out of Seymour's mouth when Arsenal almost went ahead. "I think if Lishman's header had gone in instead of bouncing off the bar we would have pulled off the impossible," Forbes said. "As the ball went over I saw Jimmy's shoulders slump as he trudged wearily back to touchline."

When George Robledo ended Arsenal's gallant resistance with a header that went in off the inside of an upright Forbes was on the floor. "Because I already had a Cup winner's medal, losing didn't seem so bad and I was relieved that there wouldn't be extra time. Then I felt a tug at my collar. It was Joe Mercer pulling me up, shouting that we could still save the match."

When it was over, Seymour stood to shake Whittaker's hand. "Tom, ours is the cup," he said. "Yours the honour and the glory.
I've known and loved that Joe Mercer quote for years but wasn't fully aware of the build up to that final. Great article Herbert - thanks for posting it.

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Herd
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Re: The Arsenal captain 2019/20

Postby Herd » Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:05 am

Its all well and good to throw names about but leaders need the respect and backing of their peers and we don't know how that dynamic is at todays Arsenal , Kos was/is a pretty wishy washy captain prone to bieng beasted by large ivorians !
We havent had a good skipper since Gilberto and Wenger passed him over for the cuntoid Gallas !

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Bradywasking
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Re: The Arsenal captain 2019/20

Postby Bradywasking » Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:25 am

" I thought football's greatest honour was to captain England. I was wrong. It was to captain Arsenal today."...Joe Mercer said that following Arsenal's defeat to Newcastle in the 1952 FA Cup Final...

It is a quote I never tire of reading because it reminds me of how special our club once was.
Great quote and I have never heard it before so I googled the game and it come up with this article and why he was so proud that day,

ADDRESSING the men he was about to lead against Newcastle United in the 1952 FA Cup final, by then in his 38th year, Joe Mercer declared, "Don't forget - nobody starts favourites against Arsenal."

If stirred by their captain's call to arms, the horse players in Arsenal's line-up were not inclined to disagree with the odds that had been laid against them.

Mercer was taking out a team stricken by illness and injuries. Welsh international Ray Daniel wore a protective covering over the plaster cast that encased a broken wrist; Jimmy Logie, his right thigh strapped could barely conceal a limp; Doug Lishman, like Logie, not long out of hospital hadn't completely shaken off the effects of blood poisoning. Cliff Holton, the only fully-fit centre- forward available to Arsenal's manager, Tom Whittaker, was turning out in his first FA Cup tie.

Speaking last week from Johannesburg, his home for more than 30 years, Alex Forbes, the Scottish international who was at right-half for Arsenal said, "Things got so bad I imagined us turning up at Wembley in an ambulance. Even Arsenal fans among the gamblers I mixed with in those days were betting against us."


Arsenal's troubles began after defeating Chelsea in a replayed semi-final to set up a possible championship and Cup double 19 years before their north London rivals Tottenham Hotspur became the first club to achieve it this century.

Playing three games in four days over Easter (in those days a feature of the League programme) Arsenal were left counting their wounded. First Daniel, who broke a wrist in collision with Stan Mortensen at Blackpool on Good Friday. At Bolton, the following day, Daniel's veteran deputy, Leslie Compton, pulled a muscle. Forty-eight hours later (and the present crop of players complain of strain!) Logie was badly hurt against Newcastle at Highbury when Arsenal also lost Arthur Shaw, their third centre- half in successive matches.

A 3-1 defeat at West Bromwich with five reserves in the team left Arsenal with the task of winning 7-0 at Old Trafford to gain the League title ahead of Manchester United. Whittaker conceded in a telegram to Matt Busby - "All at Arsenal send sincere congratulations on a worthy championship success."

In an autobiography Tom Whittaker's Arsenal Story published shortly before his death in 1956, Whittaker went over the trials that quickly followed. "Up in Newcastle my rival manager and old friend, Stan Seymour, in a radio interview, was saying: `All these stories about injuries from Highbury may be just a trick by Tom Whittaker to put us off our guard.' Oh Stan, if you only knew what went on at Highbury in those desperate and disappointing weeks."

Forty-six years on, Forbes, now 73 and together with goalkeeper George Swindin and outside-left Don Roper one of three members of the 1952 team still living, recalls fear of an epidemic in the dressing-room. "When Jimmy [Logie] followed Doug Lishman into hospital we began to wonder about conditions in the treatment room, something that hadn't occurred to us before because they were supposed to be the best."

Whittaker, formerly the club's physiotherapist, ordered all equipment to be removed and sterilised. Training refuse was immediately burned. "One joke was that a sign should be painted on the dressing-room doors to show where the dead could be picked up but the seriousness of the situation didn't escape us," Forbes recalled.

Bought from Sheffield United for pounds 12,000 in 1948 after making five of 14 appearances in Scotland's colours, Forbes was both skilful and hard, his balance a reminder that he could have made a name in ice hockey. A key figure when Arsenal defeated Liverpool 2 -0 to win the FA Cup two years earlier he approached the 1952 final worrying about his great pal Logie.

It isn't the benefit of hindsight that persuades Forbes to think that Logie should not have been sent out against Newcastle. "He was a sick man, really sick. There was a hole in his leg where the poison had been drained and by rights he should have still been in hospital. I'm sure it couldn't happen today but things then were a lot different. There was only the championship and the Cup to play for and without Jimmy, who was a brilliant inside-forward, we had no chance of beating Newcastle."

One night in the sweet long ago Forbes told of Logie's disappearance from Arsenal's dressing-room at Wembley before the 1950 final. "We were out of the tunnel and almost onto the pitch when he trotted out," Forbes recalled. "When we lined up for the presentations I heard his voice. `Alex,' he shouted, `it got beat, Alex.' We'd backed a dog in the 2.30 and Jimmy had sneaked into the ambulance room to get the result. The wee man was nerveless but in 1952 I wept for him."

Arsenal's run of bad luck (hundreds of suggestions including lucky charms and potions had been received at Highbury) continued into the final. After only 18 minutes Wally Barnes was crippled when attempting to block Jackie Milburn. With Roper moving to right-back the Welshman limped on to the wing, but it was soon obvious that he could not continue, leaving Arsenal (no substitutes then) a man short for the time that remained.

It became known as one of their finest hours. Daniel carried on bravely despite a fall that again broke the partly knitted bone in his wrist. But, in truth, Arsenal were down to nine men. "By then Jimmy [Logie] was knackered," Forbes recalled. "He could hardly stand up and was sent to play on the right wing."

With just 20 minutes left, Newcastle's manager, Seymour, grew restive. Turning to Reg Davies, a young Welsh inside-forward and future international recently signed from Southend United, he said, "This isn't good enough. If it isn't settled today you'll be selected for the replay."

The words were hardly out of Seymour's mouth when Arsenal almost went ahead. "I think if Lishman's header had gone in instead of bouncing off the bar we would have pulled off the impossible," Forbes said. "As the ball went over I saw Jimmy's shoulders slump as he trudged wearily back to touchline."

When George Robledo ended Arsenal's gallant resistance with a header that went in off the inside of an upright Forbes was on the floor. "Because I already had a Cup winner's medal, losing didn't seem so bad and I was relieved that there wouldn't be extra time. Then I felt a tug at my collar. It was Joe Mercer pulling me up, shouting that we could still save the match."

When it was over, Seymour stood to shake Whittaker's hand. "Tom, ours is the cup," he said. "Yours the honour and the glory.
Brilliant Herbert thanks for posting..Like others I was aware of the Wally Barnes story but not of the disruption in the build up to the final.

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Nos89
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Re: The Arsenal captain 2019/20

Postby Nos89 » Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:25 pm

Koscielny is still at the club and will no doubt remain club captain. Xhaka seems the likely team captain choice but can't imagine him rollocking Ozil or Auba when they slack off their game. I've always preferred a CB as captain and for me Holding if fit or Chambers if he stays would be top of my list. Sokratis will get sent off too often but then again TA6 and PV4 and red cards seemed to go hand in hand.
Saying that I wouldn't be surprised if Ozil was made team captain as giving him some responsibility might get him more motivated.

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augie
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Re: The Arsenal captain 2019/20

Postby augie » Fri Jun 28, 2019 7:29 am

Koscielny is still at the club and will no doubt remain club captain. Xhaka seems the likely team captain choice but can't imagine him rollocking Ozil or Auba when they slack off their game. I've always preferred a CB as captain and for me Holding if fit or Chambers if he stays would be top of my list. Sokratis will get sent off too often but then again TA6 and PV4 and red cards seemed to go hand in hand.
Saying that I wouldn't be surprised if Ozil was made team captain as giving him some responsibility might get him more motivated.



Stop that cos my sides are hurting from laughing too much - £350k per week ensured that he will never be motivated again :roll:

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StuartL
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Re: The Arsenal captain 2019/20

Postby StuartL » Fri Jun 28, 2019 7:45 am

Koscielny is still at the club and will no doubt remain club captain. Xhaka seems the likely team captain choice but can't imagine him rollocking Ozil or Auba when they slack off their game. I've always preferred a CB as captain and for me Holding if fit or Chambers if he stays would be top of my list. Sokratis will get sent off too often but then again TA6 and PV4 and red cards seemed to go hand in hand.
Saying that I wouldn't be surprised if Ozil was made team captain as giving him some responsibility might get him more motivated.
So, in effect, you are saying we have 11 captains out there :rubchin: where have I heard that before ?

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Nos89
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Re: The Arsenal captain 2019/20

Postby Nos89 » Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:21 am

Koscielny is still at the club and will no doubt remain club captain. Xhaka seems the likely team captain choice but can't imagine him rollocking Ozil or Auba when they slack off their game. I've always preferred a CB as captain and for me Holding if fit or Chambers if he stays would be top of my list. Sokratis will get sent off too often but then again TA6 and PV4 and red cards seemed to go hand in hand.
Saying that I wouldn't be surprised if Ozil was made team captain as giving him some responsibility might get him more motivated.
So, in effect, you are saying we have 11 captains out there :rubchin: where have I heard that before ?
[/q

What I'm saying is that there are no particular good leaders out there that's why 4 or 5 players will be up for the role. There is simple no outstanding figurehead so you might as likely give the role to Iwobi as you would Koscielny.

Clash
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Re: The Arsenal captain 2019/20

Postby Clash » Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:55 pm

Brilliant find Herbert, thanks for posting that. Really enjoyed reading it :barscarf:

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goonertux
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Re: The Arsenal captain 2019/20

Postby goonertux » Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:30 pm

From the leaked Adidas advert, it’s gonna be Kos.

Retro Gunner
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Re: The Arsenal captain 2019/20

Postby Retro Gunner » Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:22 pm

Thanks for posting the article Herbert, a great read. Like most on here, I knew about the Wally Barnes injury, but not the injury disaster that beset the whole side.

My Dad was at the final and has talked many times about Barnes having to go off and with no subs back then, we played the lion's share of the game with 10 men. From memory, I think Wally had a leg fracture, which may even have knackered his career (can't be entirely certain of the last bit).

On another note, my Dad and his brother were demobbed from their respective regiments at the end of the war and decided to buy season tickets for the 1946/47 season. Upper West, Block Z (he can still tell you the row and seat numbers !).....cost £5. 7s. 6d or £5 / 7/6.....or for those that need help, £5 . 37 1/2p....for the season !! About 7 or 8 years ago, I told him that given the cost of my ST, that amount would now buy me 10 mins of just one match !!

The Old Man is 97 now and still talks more sense about football than most people you meet.....(I resisted the urge to say "on here"....oops, said it :wink: ).

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herbert
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Re: The Arsenal captain 2019/20

Postby herbert » Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:51 pm

Delighted that others got the same pleasure from reading that article as me such a shame that without that injury crisis the double was on 9 yrs before the vermin :banghead:

Good on your dad 97 :shock: thats fantastic for a man ,hopefully your from the same gene pool :lol:

Redarmy
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Re: The Arsenal captain 2019/20

Postby Redarmy » Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:55 pm

Thanks for posting the article Herbert, a great read. Like most on here, I knew about the Wally Barnes injury, but not the injury disaster that beset the whole side.

My Dad was at the final and has talked many times about Barnes having to go off and with no subs back then, we played the lion's share of the game with 10 men. From memory, I think Wally had a leg fracture, which may even have knackered his career (can't be entirely certain of the last bit).

On another note, my Dad and his brother were demobbed from their respective regiments at the end of the war and decided to buy season tickets for the 1946/47 season. Upper West, Block Z (he can still tell you the row and seat numbers !).....cost £5. 7s. 6d or £5 / 7/6.....or for those that need help, £5 . 37 1/2p....for the season !! About 7 or 8 years ago, I told him that given the cost of my ST, that amount would now buy me 10 mins of just one match !!

The Old Man is 97 now and still talks more sense about football than most people you meet.....(I resisted the urge to say "on here"....oops, said it :wink: ).
Good luck to him, heartwarming story that, my family much the same, steeped in the Arsenal History :barscarf:

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StuartL
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Re: The Arsenal captain 2019/20

Postby StuartL » Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:40 pm

Thanks for posting the article Herbert, a great read. Like most on here, I knew about the Wally Barnes injury, but not the injury disaster that beset the whole side.

My Dad was at the final and has talked many times about Barnes having to go off and with no subs back then, we played the lion's share of the game with 10 men. From memory, I think Wally had a leg fracture, which may even have knackered his career (can't be entirely certain of the last bit).

On another note, my Dad and his brother were demobbed from their respective regiments at the end of the war and decided to buy season tickets for the 1946/47 season. Upper West, Block Z (he can still tell you the row and seat numbers !).....cost £5. 7s. 6d or £5 / 7/6.....or for those that need help, £5 . 37 1/2p....for the season !! About 7 or 8 years ago, I told him that given the cost of my ST, that amount would now buy me 10 mins of just one match !!

The Old Man is 97 now and still talks more sense about football than most people you meet.....(I resisted the urge to say "on here"....oops, said it :wink: ).
Lovely tale Retro, love hearing tales of yore.


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