Mikel Arteta, success or failure? - Merged thread.

As we're unlikely to see terraces again at football, this is the virtual equivalent where you can chat to your hearts content about all football matters and, obviously, Arsenal in particular. This forum encourages all Gooners to visit and contribute so please keep it respectful, clean and topical.
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Will he ?

Have a statue erected after 30 glorious years service?
9
9%
Be a success, pick up a few trophies and put the club back on an even keel?
27
27%
Be a moderate success, before handing over to a more high profile successor?
20
20%
Be an utter fucking disaster?
44
44%
 
Total votes: 100

worthing_gooner
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Re: Mikel Arteta, success or failure?

Post by worthing_gooner »

augie wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:15 pm
worthing_gooner wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:57 pm
The level of negativity on this thread defies belief. We could have any manager in the world and you miserable bastards would still expect him to win every game from now until the end of the season :lol:

In all seriousness, any successful team builds from the back and there's no doubt we have improved. We conceded from two defensive errors against Chelsea in his second game, but for the most part I thought we showed a level of control in that match that we haven't seen for years. We dominated United and were rightful winners and kept a clean sheet. We kept a clean sheet (albeit fortuitously) against Leeds. We conceded from a massive deflection against Palace and were a bit unfortunate not to win the game at the end. Against Sheffield United we should've had a stick on penalty to go 2-0 up.

Nobody is sitting here saying it's all rosy, but given that we've had no turnover in personnel yet and only six weeks of coaching, if you can't see this is an improvement from Emery when we conceded two goals v Southampton, Frankfurt, Norwich and Brighton back to back, then you need your eyes tested.



I think most will agree that the senior players downed tools on emery to drive him out of the club, so their restored commitment and effort would probably account for the improvements to which you refer.
Possibly. On the other hand maybe we're overestimating the ability of our players, Aubameyang excepted.

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Re: Mikel Arteta, success or failure?

Post by Jock Gooner »

worthing_gooner wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:31 pm
augie wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:15 pm
worthing_gooner wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:57 pm
The level of negativity on this thread defies belief. We could have any manager in the world and you miserable bastards would still expect him to win every game from now until the end of the season :lol:

In all seriousness, any successful team builds from the back and there's no doubt we have improved. We conceded from two defensive errors against Chelsea in his second game, but for the most part I thought we showed a level of control in that match that we haven't seen for years. We dominated United and were rightful winners and kept a clean sheet. We kept a clean sheet (albeit fortuitously) against Leeds. We conceded from a massive deflection against Palace and were a bit unfortunate not to win the game at the end. Against Sheffield United we should've had a stick on penalty to go 2-0 up.

Nobody is sitting here saying it's all rosy, but given that we've had no turnover in personnel yet and only six weeks of coaching, if you can't see this is an improvement from Emery when we conceded two goals v Southampton, Frankfurt, Norwich and Brighton back to back, then you need your eyes tested.



I think most will agree that the senior players downed tools on emery to drive him out of the club, so their restored commitment and effort would probably account for the improvements to which you refer.
Possibly. On the other hand maybe we're overestimating the ability of our players, Aubameyang excepted.

I think this is a lot closer to the truth. I don't buy into the conspiracy theory that the players sought to have Emery sacked, I don't for one second think that they are that clever. I think that Dick lost the players respect / commitment with some of his decisions and inability to communicate his vision (whatever that was) but at the same time Dick is supposed to manage his team so to lose the players is a poor reflection on him too. None of them covered themselves in glory.

For whatever reason, some on here are taking apparent great delight in Arteta's struggle to try and get this shower of shite that we call our team playing as a cohesive unit. That seems a bit pointless to me, surely we want him to succeed in the same way that we wanted Emery to work out - but he didn't and I don't think that there would be too many who would want to see him return.

I keep reading comments that claim that people having previously made statements of "massive" improvement under Arteta but tbh I can't recall there being much more than an acknowledgement that some of the football seen against the chavs and manure was decent and the team had a better shape to it. I certainly stated that myself as I saw it first hand and not to acknowledge it would have been small minded. However, not surprisingly, with the continued level of mediocrity that we have in the side we have seen some pretty dire performances since which can't really come as any great shock to anyone. This team is extremely average so we are going to struggle against anyone who turns up and has a go, any concerted effort by the opposition be it Citeh, chavs, Norwich or Bournemouth will see this current Arsenal side struggle because we rarely match that level of effort.

Going forward.....well much of the same to follow I would imagine as we are not going to spend the kind of money required to improve this side sufficiently to make any real difference. We've tried Emery, we're onto Arteta, who will be next I wonder? Does it really matter.....perhaps finally people will begin to focus more on the wiggy one who is the real problem here. Maybe we're better off in the long run if Arteta does fail, as most of us expected him to, in order to finally get after the board which has to be the next stage.

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Re: Mikel Arteta, success or failure?

Post by augie »

Jock Gooner wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:22 pm
worthing_gooner wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:31 pm
augie wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:15 pm
worthing_gooner wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:57 pm
The level of negativity on this thread defies belief. We could have any manager in the world and you miserable bastards would still expect him to win every game from now until the end of the season :lol:

In all seriousness, any successful team builds from the back and there's no doubt we have improved. We conceded from two defensive errors against Chelsea in his second game, but for the most part I thought we showed a level of control in that match that we haven't seen for years. We dominated United and were rightful winners and kept a clean sheet. We kept a clean sheet (albeit fortuitously) against Leeds. We conceded from a massive deflection against Palace and were a bit unfortunate not to win the game at the end. Against Sheffield United we should've had a stick on penalty to go 2-0 up.

Nobody is sitting here saying it's all rosy, but given that we've had no turnover in personnel yet and only six weeks of coaching, if you can't see this is an improvement from Emery when we conceded two goals v Southampton, Frankfurt, Norwich and Brighton back to back, then you need your eyes tested.



I think most will agree that the senior players downed tools on emery to drive him out of the club, so their restored commitment and effort would probably account for the improvements to which you refer.
Possibly. On the other hand maybe we're overestimating the ability of our players, Aubameyang excepted.

I think this is a lot closer to the truth. I don't buy into the conspiracy theory that the players sought to have Emery sacked, I don't for one second think that they are that clever. I think that Dick lost the players respect / commitment with some of his decisions and inability to communicate his vision (whatever that was) but at the same time Dick is supposed to manage his team so to lose the players is a poor reflection on him too. None of them covered themselves in glory.

For whatever reason, some on here are taking apparent great delight in Arteta's struggle to try and get this shower of shite that we call our team playing as a cohesive unit. That seems a bit pointless to me, surely we want him to succeed in the same way that we wanted Emery to work out - but he didn't and I don't think that there would be too many who would want to see him return.

I keep reading comments that claim that people having previously made statements of "massive" improvement under Arteta but tbh I can't recall there being much more than an acknowledgement that some of the football seen against the chavs and manure was decent and the team had a better shape to it. I certainly stated that myself as I saw it first hand and not to acknowledge it would have been small minded. However, not surprisingly, with the continued level of mediocrity that we have in the side we have seen some pretty dire performances since which can't really come as any great shock to anyone. This team is extremely average so we are going to struggle against anyone who turns up and has a go, any concerted effort by the opposition be it Citeh, chavs, Norwich or Bournemouth will see this current Arsenal side struggle because we rarely match that level of effort.

Going forward.....well much of the same to follow I would imagine as we are not going to spend the kind of money required to improve this side sufficiently to make any real difference. We've tried Emery, we're onto Arteta, who will be next I wonder? Does it really matter.....perhaps finally people will begin to focus more on the wiggy one who is the real problem here. Maybe we're better off in the long run if Arteta does fail, as most of us expected him to, in order to finally get after the board which has to be the next stage.



Personally I think that mindset is giving arteta AND the players a free pass - as a team we are average no doubt, but as individual players ours are miles better than anything Sheffield united, Bournemouth and palace have on their books, so why is that not showing on the pitch ? Isnt it a managers job to get the maximum out of his players ? Don't we give kudo's to managers like chris wilder who can put out a team which is better than the sum of the individual parts, so why then do we not ask questions of managers not getting the best from their players ? That logic is what rightly led to emery's removal, but we need to be consistant in that approach. I don't care if this team is nowhere near the 2004 team, but what I do care about is that these players should be beating the aforementioned teams, but the reality is that they haven't looked like winning any of those games.

Speaking from my own position, I am not getting great delight in arteta's struggles - I never wanted the guy as manager and have always said that, but I would be more than delighted to be proven wrong. In my opinion we have a team lacking in quality needed to challenge at the very top level, but we have character and attitude weaknesses that are handicapping us against teams below the top level. An experienced manager comes in, identifies the issues, and then takes action to rectify them - it is my opinion that arteta has come in with a level of arrogance where he thinks that his coaching and tactical acumen will overcome those issues, and that wont work imo. Someone previously said that we are still making the same mistakes as under emery, so my question is why are we still making those same mistakes ? Isnt it the managers job to rectify them, and if he cant fix them, then why did we bring him in and give emery a £6m pay off ? We all (me included) were delighted by the performance and attitude shown against the chavs at the souless bowl, so is it unreasonable to expect that level of performance against the 3 teams I mentioned (plus championship team leeds) ?

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Re: Mikel Arteta, success or failure?

Post by Midz »

augie wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:51 pm
In my opinion we have a team lacking in quality needed to challenge at the very top level, but we have character and attitude weaknesses that are handicapping us against teams below the top level. An experienced manager comes in, identifies the issues, and then takes action to rectify them - it is my opinion that arteta has come in with a level of arrogance where he thinks that his coaching and tactical acumen will overcome those issues, and that wont work
I'm of that opinion too.

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Re: Mikel Arteta, success or failure?

Post by Midz »

I'm in agreement with Augie (in case anyone isn't clear of my opinion :D

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Re: Mikel Arteta, success or failure?

Post by DB10GOONER »

A11M11 wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:47 am
In one breath you castigate Xhaka , Guendouzi , Kolasinac , Bellerin , Sokratis , Mustafi , Luiz etc . Then you criticise Arteta for not being able to turn them into worldbeaters .
He can only work with what he has and although just as frustrated , I can see that the organisation has improved but is let down by brain lapses from older players that are either unwilling or unable to learn the changes required.
As for the kids , they are just that :- kids , learning on the job .It took Klopp about 5 years to turn the Dippers round . No-one will turn our basket cases round in five minutes.
Let's not forget the little matter of the near 500million quid Stupid Teeth spent as well huh? :roll: :wink:

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Re: Mikel Arteta, success or failure?

Post by Jock Gooner »

augie wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:51 pm
Jock Gooner wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:22 pm
worthing_gooner wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:31 pm
augie wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:15 pm
worthing_gooner wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:57 pm
The level of negativity on this thread defies belief. We could have any manager in the world and you miserable bastards would still expect him to win every game from now until the end of the season :lol:

In all seriousness, any successful team builds from the back and there's no doubt we have improved. We conceded from two defensive errors against Chelsea in his second game, but for the most part I thought we showed a level of control in that match that we haven't seen for years. We dominated United and were rightful winners and kept a clean sheet. We kept a clean sheet (albeit fortuitously) against Leeds. We conceded from a massive deflection against Palace and were a bit unfortunate not to win the game at the end. Against Sheffield United we should've had a stick on penalty to go 2-0 up.

Nobody is sitting here saying it's all rosy, but given that we've had no turnover in personnel yet and only six weeks of coaching, if you can't see this is an improvement from Emery when we conceded two goals v Southampton, Frankfurt, Norwich and Brighton back to back, then you need your eyes tested.



I think most will agree that the senior players downed tools on emery to drive him out of the club, so their restored commitment and effort would probably account for the improvements to which you refer.
Possibly. On the other hand maybe we're overestimating the ability of our players, Aubameyang excepted.

I think this is a lot closer to the truth. I don't buy into the conspiracy theory that the players sought to have Emery sacked, I don't for one second think that they are that clever. I think that Dick lost the players respect / commitment with some of his decisions and inability to communicate his vision (whatever that was) but at the same time Dick is supposed to manage his team so to lose the players is a poor reflection on him too. None of them covered themselves in glory.

For whatever reason, some on here are taking apparent great delight in Arteta's struggle to try and get this shower of shite that we call our team playing as a cohesive unit. That seems a bit pointless to me, surely we want him to succeed in the same way that we wanted Emery to work out - but he didn't and I don't think that there would be too many who would want to see him return.

I keep reading comments that claim that people having previously made statements of "massive" improvement under Arteta but tbh I can't recall there being much more than an acknowledgement that some of the football seen against the chavs and manure was decent and the team had a better shape to it. I certainly stated that myself as I saw it first hand and not to acknowledge it would have been small minded. However, not surprisingly, with the continued level of mediocrity that we have in the side we have seen some pretty dire performances since which can't really come as any great shock to anyone. This team is extremely average so we are going to struggle against anyone who turns up and has a go, any concerted effort by the opposition be it Citeh, chavs, Norwich or Bournemouth will see this current Arsenal side struggle because we rarely match that level of effort.

Going forward.....well much of the same to follow I would imagine as we are not going to spend the kind of money required to improve this side sufficiently to make any real difference. We've tried Emery, we're onto Arteta, who will be next I wonder? Does it really matter.....perhaps finally people will begin to focus more on the wiggy one who is the real problem here. Maybe we're better off in the long run if Arteta does fail, as most of us expected him to, in order to finally get after the board which has to be the next stage.



Personally I think that mindset is giving arteta AND the players a free pass - as a team we are average no doubt, but as individual players ours are miles better than anything Sheffield united, Bournemouth and palace have on their books, so why is that not showing on the pitch ? Isnt it a managers job to get the maximum out of his players ? Don't we give kudo's to managers like chris wilder who can put out a team which is better than the sum of the individual parts, so why then do we not ask questions of managers not getting the best from their players ? That logic is what rightly led to emery's removal, but we need to be consistant in that approach. I don't care if this team is nowhere near the 2004 team, but what I do care about is that these players should be beating the aforementioned teams, but the reality is that they haven't looked like winning any of those games.

Speaking from my own position, I am not getting great delight in arteta's struggles - I never wanted the guy as manager and have always said that, but I would be more than delighted to be proven wrong. In my opinion we have a team lacking in quality needed to challenge at the very top level, but we have character and attitude weaknesses that are handicapping us against teams below the top level. An experienced manager comes in, identifies the issues, and then takes action to rectify them - it is my opinion that arteta has come in with a level of arrogance where he thinks that his coaching and tactical acumen will overcome those issues, and that wont work imo. Someone previously said that we are still making the same mistakes as under emery, so my question is why are we still making those same mistakes ? Isnt it the managers job to rectify them, and if he cant fix them, then why did we bring him in and give emery a £6m pay off ? We all (me included) were delighted by the performance and attitude shown against the chavs at the souless bowl, so is it unreasonable to expect that level of performance against the 3 teams I mentioned (plus championship team leeds) ?

A free pass or just the reality of how poor we are. I think we are stuck in a mindset where we think our individual players are miles better than others but the evidence just doesn't back that up.

It doesn't matter who is in charge of this current squad we are going to get broadly the same outcome. We will have odd days when it clicks and we have a decent game and win but there is going to be some amount of crap along the way.

Why did Arteta come in? Well the board realised that there was a bit of a problem but decided that the manager was the issue rather than the weakness of the team and their own lack of investment. Emery contributed to his own downfall at the end but he wasn't the sole reason for our predicament. So Emery, Arteta, whoever.....it's all going to be a bit of a sideshow and a misdirection of where our attention really should be.

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Re: Mikel Arteta, success or failure?

Post by xisstential »

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/sports/soccer ... ar-BBZ5IxF

How's this for a glowing report for Arteta………. Arteta who has won one game in 5. Inherited the "mess that Emery left" How come the mess that Emery inherited from Wenger, most of which is still there, is never mentioned?? By anybody, ever!!

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Re: Mikel Arteta, success or failure?

Post by GoonerMuzz »

xisstential wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:13 pm
https://www.msn.com/en-ca/sports/soccer ... ar-BBZ5IxF

How's this for a glowing report for Arteta………. Arteta who has won one game in 5. Inherited the "mess that Emery left" How come the mess that Emery inherited from Wenger, most of which is still there, is never mentioned?? By anybody, ever!!
I dont think anyone in their right mind would argue that Emery wasn't left a complete mess but Emery had two summer and one January transfer windows to begin to sort it out and arguably things are as bad if not worse :rubchin:

People are writing Arteta off after what 6 or 7 games, Emery has had 16 years experience including winning 3 Europe Leagues, Arteta has been Pep Orange boy for a couple of seasons, there's a world of difference. Personally I wouldn't have touched Arteta in a million years to try to sort the shit out at this club but as noted above it's a bit rich of some on here to expect miracles from Arteta then use Emery as some sort of baseline when he couldn't find a way to revitalise the squad after it's late season collapse and humiliation in the Europa final.

What will it take to turn this club around, certainly not Mikel but to insinuate that Emery could have done better is seriously clutching at straws when he had blatantly lost the dressing room. Neither Manager is good enough to improve the bunch of morons we have playing at the moment but we're stuck with Arteta so people desperately looking for miniscule amounts of improvement is understandable and the simple fact that for the last few games our goal hasn't been absolutely peppered with 20+ shots per match by minnows is probably about the limit right now. Unfortunately we have gone from scoring reasonably but giving the opposition way too many chances to cutting down the chances but struggling to score :roll:

xisstential
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Re: Mikel Arteta, success or failure?

Post by xisstential »

GoonerMuzz wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:41 pm
xisstential wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:13 pm
https://www.msn.com/en-ca/sports/soccer ... ar-BBZ5IxF

How's this for a glowing report for Arteta………. Arteta who has won one game in 5. Inherited the "mess that Emery left" How come the mess that Emery inherited from Wenger, most of which is still there, is never mentioned?? By anybody, ever!!
I dont think anyone in their right mind would argue that Emery wasn't left a complete mess but Emery had two summer and one January transfer windows to begin to sort it out and arguably things are as bad if not worse :rubchin:

People are writing Arteta off after what 6 or 7 games, Emery has had 16 years experience including winning 3 Europe Leagues, Arteta has been Pep Orange boy for a couple of seasons, there's a world of difference. Personally I wouldn't have touched Arteta in a million years to try to sort the shit out at this club but as noted above it's a bit rich of some on here to expect miracles from Arteta then use Emery as some sort of baseline when he couldn't find a way to revitalise the squad after it's late season collapse and humiliation in the Europa final.

What will it take to turn this club around, certainly not Mikel but to insinuate that Emery could have done better is seriously clutching at straws when he had blatantly lost the dressing room. Neither Manager is good enough to improve the bunch of morons we have playing at the moment but we're stuck with Arteta so people desperately looking for miniscule amounts of improvement is understandable and the simple fact that for the last few games our goal hasn't been absolutely peppered with 20+ shots per match by minnows is probably about the limit right now. Unfortunately we have gone from scoring reasonably but giving the opposition way too many chances to cutting down the chances but struggling to score :roll:
Pretty much agree with everything you say, and while I desperately wanted Emery to succeed, he basically flopped. It was damn near a miracle that he got to the Europa finals considering what he inherited.

Two things really annoy me still.....the fact that Wenger slunk off and has escaped all criticism for the monumental mess he left us with, a lot of it still there and seemingly unfixable, or at least unmanageable..

And the fact that in the midst of what was/is tantamount to a crisis situation we dragged our heels over replacing Emery and then when we did, we replaced him with an untested, inexperienced novice when we needed a very, very experienced "Captain" to steady the ship. We are still as close as you can get to having a manager and being rudderless.

Arteta is a band aid on a bullet wound.

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Re: Mikel Arteta, success or failure?

Post by DB10GOONER »

GoonerMuzz wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:41 pm
xisstential wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:13 pm
https://www.msn.com/en-ca/sports/soccer ... ar-BBZ5IxF

How's this for a glowing report for Arteta………. Arteta who has won one game in 5. Inherited the "mess that Emery left" How come the mess that Emery inherited from Wenger, most of which is still there, is never mentioned?? By anybody, ever!!
I dont think anyone in their right mind would argue that Emery wasn't left a complete mess but Emery had two summer and one January transfer windows to begin to sort it out and arguably things are as bad if not worse :rubchin:

People are writing Arteta off after what 6 or 7 games, Emery has had 16 years experience including winning 3 Europe Leagues, Arteta has been Pep Orange boy for a couple of seasons, there's a world of difference. Personally I wouldn't have touched Arteta in a million years to try to sort the shit out at this club but as noted above it's a bit rich of some on here to expect miracles from Arteta then use Emery as some sort of baseline when he couldn't find a way to revitalise the squad after it's late season collapse and humiliation in the Europa final.

What will it take to turn this club around, certainly not Mikel but to insinuate that Emery could have done better is seriously clutching at straws when he had blatantly lost the dressing room. Neither Manager is good enough to improve the bunch of morons we have playing at the moment but we're stuck with Arteta so people desperately looking for miniscule amounts of improvement is understandable and the simple fact that for the last few games our goal hasn't been absolutely peppered with 20+ shots per match by minnows is probably about the limit right now. Unfortunately we have gone from scoring reasonably but giving the opposition way too many chances to cutting down the chances but struggling to score :roll:
Superb well balanced post. 8)


Who wrote that for ya Muzz? :D :wink:

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Re: Mikel Arteta, success or failure?

Post by DB10GOONER »

xisstential wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:10 pm

Arteta is a band aid on a bullet wound.
Fantastic metaphor mate. :lol: 8)

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Re: Mikel Arteta, success or failure?

Post by flash gunner »

utter failure

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Re: Mikel Arteta, success or failure?

Post by GoonerMuzz »

flash gunner wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:32 am
utter failure
Um are you talking about Arteta or DB10 as a mod? :wink:

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Re: Mikel Arteta, success or failure?

Post by worthing_gooner »

GoonerMuzz wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:41 pm
xisstential wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:13 pm
https://www.msn.com/en-ca/sports/soccer ... ar-BBZ5IxF

How's this for a glowing report for Arteta………. Arteta who has won one game in 5. Inherited the "mess that Emery left" How come the mess that Emery inherited from Wenger, most of which is still there, is never mentioned?? By anybody, ever!!
I dont think anyone in their right mind would argue that Emery wasn't left a complete mess but Emery had two summer and one January transfer windows to begin to sort it out and arguably things are as bad if not worse :rubchin:

People are writing Arteta off after what 6 or 7 games, Emery has had 16 years experience including winning 3 Europe Leagues, Arteta has been Pep Orange boy for a couple of seasons, there's a world of difference. Personally I wouldn't have touched Arteta in a million years to try to sort the shit out at this club but as noted above it's a bit rich of some on here to expect miracles from Arteta then use Emery as some sort of baseline when he couldn't find a way to revitalise the squad after it's late season collapse and humiliation in the Europa final.

What will it take to turn this club around, certainly not Mikel but to insinuate that Emery could have done better is seriously clutching at straws when he had blatantly lost the dressing room. Neither Manager is good enough to improve the bunch of morons we have playing at the moment but we're stuck with Arteta so people desperately looking for miniscule amounts of improvement is understandable and the simple fact that for the last few games our goal hasn't been absolutely peppered with 20+ shots per match by minnows is probably about the limit right now. Unfortunately we have gone from scoring reasonably but giving the opposition way too many chances to cutting down the chances but struggling to score :roll:
This is spot on.

I honestly don't know what people were expecting? You could get Klopp in and he wouldn't suddenly make us peak Barcelona in six games.

Need to get in the real world and recognise that it's not going to happen overnight but acknowledge that we are heading in the right direction. We have seen improvement in virtually every player, but unfortunately some of those players are just extremely limited and that's a whole different debate.

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