Mikel Arteta, success or failure? - Merged thread.

[StuartL]

Top 4 and a St Totteringhams day celebration

Yep, top 3 will be City, LiverpooLLL and Chelsea but no reason why we cannot get 4th, with the right acquisitions and better team attitude that we appear to be displaying.

Icing on the cake will be the Europa Cup

[rodders999]

Top 4 and/or the Europa is a definitely within reach but not unless we get some attacking flair into the middle of the park.

Pretty much every match thread for the last two seasons has seen me make the exact same comment - bemoaning a midfield completely devoid of creativity.

It’s all well and good being lethal at the fast counter to punish the big boys as we’ve seen of late but in the games where we are playing a wall of defenders we need someone capable of playing the killer ball.

Xhaka isn’t that player, Dani Getafe wasn’t it either (please don’t bring him back), Torreira ain’t it, AMN if played in there isn’t it, Douzi isn’t it, Willock isn’t it, El Neny definitely isn’t it. The bug eyed bottle job was it before he disappeared up his own arsehole but he’s never putting on the jersey again so fuck him. Have I forgotten anyone? They’re all so beige they bleed into one for me.

There barely a single goal or assist amongst that lot over an ENTIRE season. It’s fucking grim in there and if not addressed then it will be 5th or 6th and game over in Europe by the quarters/semis.

[augie]

So with Arteta fully installed with 2 pieces of Silverware already and no excuses coming into the new season, what is a realistic expectation this year?

I cannot see us challenging in the league i still believe, much as i hate to admit it, that Dippers and Shitty are still well ahead of what we can produce over a season, on our day we can match them but over a season i dont think we can, so is top 4 realistic against the Scum, Manc Scum and Chavski?

As for the cups we know the League Cup will get its usual lip service and we dont do regular back to back FA Cups so it may be a long shot to repeat this seasons run but is a Europa Final/Win out the question?

For me I want a top four finish and Europa win as the minimum but i am not sure either is realistic yet, what do you all think? (Oviously dependant on how the rest of the transfer window goes, more than anything retaining PEA)

I will make the same comment to answer that as I did when emery was appointed ........... I will not put any expectations on him regarding trophies or finishing places in the league, but I will judge him based on what he is doing with the make up of the squad and the direction in which he is bringing us. I would like to see a recognition that the likes of xhaka, mustafi, kolasniac, luiz and nketieh are not good enough to take the cub to the level we want to be at, and I want to see some courage from him to get rid of them - it doesnt require much balls to be the man that gets rid of guendouzi, torreira and holding, but it will take courage to get rid of the older, senior vocal players, and I dont think that arteta has the cajones for that job tbh.
I respect the safety first option he has gone with (albeit I still want 4-4-2 or 4-3-3) because it shows a recognition that he has a lack of quality defenders at his disposal. I wont slate him for the lack of creativity in midfield cos I dont believe that we can be solid defensively AND exciting going forward, and if I am given that choice then I pick solid defensively every single time

[wibble]

‘What are the expectations for this year?’

It’s tough, realistically I’m expecting us to finish in the europa league qualifying positions.

In terms of what counts as success it’s difficult to say. With Wenger (and later Emery) we were going backwards so needed a change. Now, although it’s hard to say 5th or 6th is a successful season, I think it’s the best we’ll get. At some stage over the next couple of seasons I think we need to be back in champions league either through our league finish or winning europa.

I guess the point I’m struggling to make is that if Wenger was still in charge and finishing 8th I’d want him gone, as it is Arteta deserves some time to see if the improvements we’ve seen can continue

[augie]

‘What are the expectations for this year?’

It’s tough, realistically I’m expecting us to finish in the europa league qualifying positions.

In terms of what counts as success it’s difficult to say. With Wenger (and later Emery) we were going backwards so needed a change. Now, although it’s hard to say 5th or 6th is a successful season, I think it’s the best we’ll get. At some stage over the next couple of seasons I think we need to be back in champions league either through our league finish or winning europa.

I guess the point I’m struggling to make is that if Wenger was still in charge and finishing 8th I’d want him gone, as it is Arteta deserves some time to see if the improvements we’ve seen can continue

One thing I will say though, is that while I accept that citeeh and the victims are miles ahead of us, I dont accept the narrative that the chavs and manure are any better than us - imo both the chavs and manure have been focusing their recruitment on the wrong positions and are fundamentally as vulnerable as they were last season.

I will also say again, that arteta deserves time as long as we are not failing on the back of continually selecting xhaka and mustafi etc - if they are integral causes of any failures, then fans will justifiably question arteta

[g88ner]

I would like to see a recognition that the likes of xhaka, mustafi, kolasniac, luiz and nketieh are not good enough to take the cub to the level we want to be at, and I want to see some courage from him to get rid of them - it doesnt require much balls to be the man that gets rid of guendouzi, torreira and holding, but it will take courage to get rid of the older, senior vocal players, and I dont think that arteta has the cajones for that job tbh.

Augie, I think you’re yet again being incredibly unfair on Arteta. By saying he lacks courage/balls/cajones you’re basically calling him a coward. That’s harsh mate.

I’m almost certain I remember you’re argument before lockdown was that Arteta didn’t have the balls to drop ozil? - well he clearly did have the balls so it does seem like you’re moving the goalposts

Lacazette was also a senior, first team regular yet Arteta dropped him in favour of a rookie in nketiah.

He’s dropped sokratis too (another senior player) in favour of the hugely unpopular Mustafi.

Also, please explain why dropping Mustafi and xakha would take balls? - I’d argue that’s an easy thing to do. When Arteta arrived, xakha was sulking and wanting to leave whilst Mustafi was out in the cold under Emery and looked like he had no future. Arteta brought both back into the team, not because he’s a coward but because he’s being pragmatic and using the players available to him as he wants.

I don’t like all his decisions but I genuinely believe he’s a strong minded young manager who is doing what he thinks is right and certainly not cowardly picking a team to avoid conflict. That’s a strong accusation mate.

[g88ner]

Also augie, you say it would take balls for Arteta to get rid of Luiz. But it’s surely the opposite?

Luiz was 2 weeks away from being out of contract. If Arteta was too cowardly to drop Luiz then why wouldn’t he take the opportunity to let his contract expire? - for a coward, that was a great opportunity to avoid confrontation. Instead, Arteta renewed Luiz’s contract so that tells you he wants him around.

[augie]

I would like to see a recognition that the likes of xhaka, mustafi, kolasniac, luiz and nketieh are not good enough to take the cub to the level we want to be at, and I want to see some courage from him to get rid of them - it doesnt require much balls to be the man that gets rid of guendouzi, torreira and holding, but it will take courage to get rid of the older, senior vocal players, and I dont think that arteta has the cajones for that job tbh.

Augie, I think you’re yet again being incredibly unfair on Arteta. By saying he lacks courage/balls/cajones you’re basically calling him a coward. That’s harsh mate.

I’m almost certain I remember you’re argument before lockdown was that Arteta didn’t have the balls to drop ozil? - well he clearly did have the balls so it does seem like you’re moving the goalposts

Lacazette was also a senior, first team regular yet Arteta dropped him in favour of a rookie in nketiah.

He’s dropped sokratis too (another senior player) in favour of the hugely unpopular Mustafi.

Also, please explain why dropping Mustafi and xakha would take balls? - I’d argue that’s an easy thing to do. When Arteta arrived, xakha was sulking and wanting to leave whilst Mustafi was out in the cold under Emery and looked like he had no future. Arteta brought both back into the team, not because he’s a coward but because he’s being pragmatic and using the players available to him as he wants.

I don’t like all his decisions but I genuinely believe he’s a strong minded young manager who is doing what he thinks is right and certainly not cowardly picking a team to avoid conflict. That’s a strong accusation mate.

A couple of small and quick responses buddy -

I think one of his main assets is his ability to be pragmatic so on the point we agree, but where we disagree is on where we see proof of it - I feel that arteta came into the club, seen (or was made aware of) the war zone that existed between emery and certain players, and decided that he needed to ease the anger within the squad lest if ended up seeing him off too. You feel that he was pragmatic and decided to use the players he had available to him, whilst I believe that he was pragmatic and chose to involve the players that were on the way out so that it would avoid starting his reign in conflict.

I feel that dropping xhaka and mustafi will take balls, cos they are the type of players that will fight back if they are unhappy with their lot. It is easy drop sokratis who will keep a dignified silence regardless, and it is easy to drop players like maitland-niles and guendouzi who are only making their way in the game and have no standing in the club or in the footballing world - dropping and forcing out the door the likes of xhaka who is captain of switzerland, is not an easy task for most managers, and I suspect arteta is a manager that avoids conflict if at all possible. If I was a cynic I might think that the players arteta is trying to get rid of are all emery disciples, but because I am not a cynic I believe that it is probably just a coincidence

[Jock Gooner]

Also augie, you say it would take balls for Arteta to get rid of Luiz. But it’s surely the opposite?

Luiz was 2 weeks away from being out of contract. If Arteta was too cowardly to drop Luiz then why wouldn’t he take the opportunity to let his contract expire? - for a coward, that was a great opportunity to avoid confrontation. Instead, Arteta renewed Luiz’s contract so that tells you he wants him around.

Agreed. Arteta certainly appears to know what he wants to happen at the club. Let's not confuse a refusal to drop certain players with him not having the bottle to do so, rather it's the case that he believes a player can do a job - whereas we as fans often have a completely different opinion of said player. Xhaka and Luiz are prime examples. Arteta will only have himself to blame if they continue to cost us points.

[GoonerMuzz]

Interesting perspective really, if Arteta is being cowardly then surely so was Emery after all he had two summer transfer windows to get rid of the likes of Xhaka, Ozil, Kolasinac and Mustafi. I'd also remind people it wasn't Arteta that brought back Xhaka after the debacle but Emery who rehabilitated him back in to the squad and gave him his first start again and Freddie who continued this.

Maybe Arteta, Emery and Wenger all see something in Xhaka that we cant, fuck knows what mind, but there is a substantial amount of Management and Coaching experience between them........ or as I said before Xhaka has incriminating photos or video of the Kroenkes inflagrante with some French DJs....allegedly

[augie]

Also augie, you say it would take balls for Arteta to get rid of Luiz. But it’s surely the opposite?

Luiz was 2 weeks away from being out of contract. If Arteta was too cowardly to drop Luiz then why wouldn’t he take the opportunity to let his contract expire? - for a coward, that was a great opportunity to avoid confrontation. Instead, Arteta renewed Luiz’s contract so that tells you he wants him around.

I was one of a very, very small minority on here that understood the decision to re-sign luiz, so I am not advocating that he be sold - again we are talking being pragmatic here because a club on a very limited transfer budget has not got enough funds to fill all the holes in the team, so it makes sense to keep the guy instead of having to shell out a transfer fee signing someone else to replace him.
I will say though that IF we sign gabriel, keeping luiz will seem like a waste of time and might lead to a situation where the player himself will want out

[augie]

Also augie, you say it would take balls for Arteta to get rid of Luiz. But it’s surely the opposite?

Luiz was 2 weeks away from being out of contract. If Arteta was too cowardly to drop Luiz then why wouldn’t he take the opportunity to let his contract expire? - for a coward, that was a great opportunity to avoid confrontation. Instead, Arteta renewed Luiz’s contract so that tells you he wants him around.

Agreed. Arteta certainly appears to know what he wants to happen at the club. Let's not confuse a refusal to drop certain players with him not having the bottle to do so, rather it's the case that he believes a player can do a job - whereas we as fans often have a completely different opinion of said player. Xhaka and Luiz are prime examples. Arteta will only have himself to blame if they continue to cost us points.

In your opinion, which is a worse scenario -

(a) arteta wants rid of xhaka but is afraid to upset what is currently a happy camp

or

(b) arteta really rates xhaka and believes that he is one of the players that he can build a team around

I understand why g88ner feels that I am being harsh on arteta, but personally I would rather have a coward in charge that is afraid to get rid of xhaka, then a guy whose judgement and vision is shit enough to make him feel that xhaka is a good player and worth keeping

[rodders999]

I'll go with (c) Augie - puts Xhaka in the side because our central midfield options are so fucking dire he's actually the best of a bad bunch, frightening and all as that may be.

Sorting out both central midfield slots - occupied by Xhaka and Cabellos last season - has to be the top priority between now and the close of the window. Just as the signings of Saliba, Mari and Gabriel (plus the Luiz extension) will spell the end of Mustafi at the club, or at the very least in the side, proper additions in central midfield (Partey and Aouar?) will similarly see the demise of Xhaka from the team.

[Jock Gooner]

Also augie, you say it would take balls for Arteta to get rid of Luiz. But it’s surely the opposite?

Luiz was 2 weeks away from being out of contract. If Arteta was too cowardly to drop Luiz then why wouldn’t he take the opportunity to let his contract expire? - for a coward, that was a great opportunity to avoid confrontation. Instead, Arteta renewed Luiz’s contract so that tells you he wants him around.

Agreed. Arteta certainly appears to know what he wants to happen at the club. Let's not confuse a refusal to drop certain players with him not having the bottle to do so, rather it's the case that he believes a player can do a job - whereas we as fans often have a completely different opinion of said player. Xhaka and Luiz are prime examples. Arteta will only have himself to blame if they continue to cost us points.

In your opinion, which is a worse scenario -

(a) arteta wants rid of xhaka but is afraid to upset what is currently a happy camp

or

(b) arteta really rates xhaka and believes that he is one of the players that he can build a team around

I understand why g88ner feels that I am being harsh on arteta, but personally I would rather have a coward in charge that is afraid to get rid of xhaka, then a guy whose judgement and vision is shit enough to make him feel that xhaka is a good player and worth keeping

I don't believe that (option a) is even relevant to Arteta's thinking. Under Pep's tutelage he watched him happily end Joe Hart's career when he took on city so I don't think that Arteta would think twice about ditching Xhaka. I think that we are just going to have to continue to be speechless over Arteta's continued persistence with Xhaka. I like to think that Arteta would want to replace Xhaka but it remains to be seen whether Arteta believes he can get a tune out of Xhaka (option b) or whether he feels that there are other areas of the team that require his attention first. The latter offers a degree of mitigation but isn't much use to those of us who have watched Xhaka's ineptitude for too long already.

We may not like it very much but it looks like we are going to have to continue to watch the Xhaka experiment play itself out.

[Nos89]

In half a season Arteta has accomplished more than Emery did in one and half seasons. Won a cup, followed up with community shield win. Unlike, Lampards Chelsea, solksjaers Utd and mourinho's spurs, he has got two bit of silver. There is less pressure on him to win a cup than the other three. Focus on the Europa League and predominately the domestic league. I don't understand why chelski are rated higher than us, we have a much better defence then they have, and our attack has a world class player.
Arteta has accomplished this with the same squad of players Emery had. I don't really see an argument against him and against Arsenal finishing third. Momentum is a great thing to have in football and it definitely is with us at the moment. The only playerI'd take from Chelski is Kante and he would make a world of difference to our midfield. Given the last two season he has had being played out of position, I'm sure if Arteta bought him and stuck him in his best position we'd be genuine contenders.