The 'I told you so' EU referendum - Officially the Worst Thread Ever

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Remain or leave

Remain
27
35%
Leave
51
65%
 
Total votes: 78

Gunner Rob
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Re: The 'I told you so' EU referendum - Officially the Worst Thread Ever

Postby Gunner Rob » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:06 am

I came across the matrix quote by accident but it serves this argument well.
I've previously stated why it is essential to leave the EU and despite the utterings of many it was made perfectly clear not by Boris or by Nick but by the Prime Minister Dodgy Dave himself that Brexit means out of the single market and out of the customs union .

It wasn't clear on the ballot paper though

I've said that the powers that be won't allow it and that's exactly what Theresa May has tried to do by doing nothing until the last min before trying to rush through a deal that isn't workable so we have to stay .
Since the Vote we should have immediately prepared for a hard Brexit because the only way to negotiate with anyone is to have a strong backup if you fail .
Now Jeremy Corbyn has joined the stich up and is offering May a way out of the morass which will in effect tie us to Europe indefinitely without any benefits of being in it ,it's a farce and it's criminal but they might get away with it.

A hard Brexit makes the country poorer, but you are quite right that a soft Brexit is pointless as we may as well just stay in the EU.
What is criminal is the lies that the Leave camp told before the referendum and which were believed by enough to tip the balance to leave


The behavior and rhetoric of EU members over the last week should open the eyes of remainers to what we are dealing with ,a federalist juggernaught that will plow on taking more bankrupt countries in and making us pay the bill whilst diluting our own parliaments ability to govern it's people.

Donald Tusk was only telling the truth - the Brexiteers had no plan and that's why nothing has been able to sorted out.
The EU politicians are just despairing about us, because we don't know what sort of Brexit that we want. The EU have stated from day 1 what is allowed. There is nothing to negotiate. The UK just think they can get a better deal. It isn't going to happen


We will be forced into the Euro we will be forced into accepting the Marrakesh Migrant bullshit and all the crap the unelected mandarins foist upon us and very soon the near civil war that france has been in for the last few years will be upon us .

Yes I agree, if we do leave the EU, then by the time we are begging to come back, we will probably be forced to accept having the euro.
However if we stay then that will never happen.

We had a chance to leave and the people voted on it ,so much for democracy !
We did indeed but where was the plan ?? Nobody knew what they had voted for.

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Re: The 'I told you so' EU referendum - Officially the Worst Thread Ever

Postby A11M11 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:16 pm

Nobody knew what they had voted for.

Despite Cable ,Clegg and Farren trying to re write history , It was clearly stated by Cameron (Prime Minister ) and George Osbourne ( Chancellor ) that leaving the E.U meant leaving the customs union and single market , the common agricultural policy and the common fishing quota scandal .Also had people listened to the other side it was quite clear that leave meant giving up the 4 freedoms of the E.U project.

It could not have been clearer.

It wasn't clear on the ballot paper though .

The withdrawal agreement is something like 600 pages to have put it all on the ballot paper we would have all had a pamphlet the size of a telephone directory. It was a straightforward question in or out.

A hard Brexit makes the country poorer :-

An assetion oft repeated but made by many of the economic forecasters that have been wrong on so many occasions . However as we know if you continue to repeat things as gospel eventually you start to believe it.

Logic dictates that should we ever get out of the E.U's clutches things will be rocky until both sides realise that it's in their interests to talk seriously . The chances are that the effects will be felt on both sides and when the political posturing stops and common sense takes over we will go forward and people will wonder what all the fuss was about.

Gunner Rob
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Re: The 'I told you so' EU referendum - Officially the Worst Thread Ever

Postby Gunner Rob » Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:03 pm

Nobody knew what they had voted for.

Despite Cable ,Clegg and Farren trying to re write history , It was clearly stated by Cameron (Prime Minister ) and George Osbourne ( Chancellor ) that leaving the E.U meant leaving the customs union and single market , the common agricultural policy and the common fishing quota scandal .Also had people listened to the other side it was quite clear that leave meant giving up the 4 freedoms of the E.U project.

It could not have been clearer.

It wasn't clear on the ballot paper though .

The withdrawal agreement is something like 600 pages to have put it all on the ballot paper we would have all had a pamphlet the size of a telephone directory. It was a straightforward question in or out.

A hard Brexit makes the country poorer :-

An assetion oft repeated but made by many of the economic forecasters that have been wrong on so many occasions . However as we know if you continue to repeat things as gospel eventually you start to believe it.

Logic dictates that should we ever get out of the E.U's clutches things will be rocky until both sides realise that it's in their interests to talk seriously . The chances are that the effects will be felt on both sides and when the political posturing stops and common sense takes over we will go forward and people will wonder what all the fuss was about.
wow we have a clairvoyant amongst us !

please do let us all know what the deal with the EU will look like or indeed whether we crash out without a deal at all. who knows ?
you see we still don't know, so nobody knew what they were voting for did they!! this is why Tusk came out with his comments last week.
THERE WAS NO PLAN

rich31
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Re: The 'I told you so' EU referendum - Officially the Worst Thread Ever

Postby rich31 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:46 pm



What and Brexiteers aren't as dismissive? It's both ways mate, people only choose to hear what they want.

A classic example of this was during the week, Donald Tusk's "special place in hell" comments were met with complete consternation by the likes of Nigel Farage and the Sun newspaper. Farage has a history of insulting the Europeans, take this for example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bypLwI5AQvY

When Farage was questioned about these comments this week, he said they were a joke and tongue in cheek. Yeah he's really saying it in a comical way isn't he.

Then you have the Sun newspaper, which let's face it is the rag of choice for the average Brexiteer coming out with pearlers like "Up Yours Delors" in the 90s. There's no doubt a catalogue of similar headlines down the years.

Most Brexiteers are derided in this country, because they tried to justify reasons other than immigration for leaving the EU and using this thread as an example, just shown how clueless and uninformed they really are.

Quite ironic you can't see this, when a few posts above is an abusive rant that doesn't even come close to debating the real issues surrounding brexit.
Firstly the fact that you use Farage and the sun as barometers of all brexiteers is a very sweeping and condescending viewpoint.After that you elude to most leave voters as only wanting to leave because of immigration.On what is that based? Is it fact based or just your opinion?
To me ,your post, which appears to accuse anyone who may want to leave as being a thick ,farage supporting,sun influenced,knuckle dragging, immigrant hating right winger just compounds my original post.
Its not condescending at all, the majority of Brexiteers especially Northerners who voted for UKIP in their millions, see Farage as a folk hero for sticking up to the EU.

I could have quoted Boris Johnson or Simon Williams, both who have insulted the EU over the last few years. To me it's no big deal, these things happen in politics, but to sit there crying after someone bites back just shows a level of immaturity in my opinion, especially if you keep using references to the Second World war.

And again, I re-iterate the quality of the debate from Brexiteers on this thread is a reflection of the wider country, but if you want to prove otherwise go ahead. I am all ears it would be nice to hear some constructive, well thought out debate for a change.
In the 2015 election 3,881,099 people voted for UKIP giving them one seat in Clacton(hardly the north of the country) and in the 2017 election 594,068 people voted for UKIP.In between these 2 elections in the 2016 eu vote 17,410,742 voted to leave.
This shows that even if you add the 2015 and 2017 UKIP votes together (total 4,475,167) that 12,935,575 people who did not vote for UKIP in either election did vote to leave the eu.
I think it is fair to say that those figures make a mockery of your argument that all/most leave voters are farage supporters or see him as a folk hero or are even UKIP voters.You really should try to stop the sweeping generalisations mate as they do not help your argument.
As i said originally i do not pretend to have the insight and knowledge to accurately predict the future but i do know that this smearing every leave voter as some kind of stupid, easily influenced fool is wrong and unsavoury.
Clacton is an anomaly when it comes to UKIP, but with a first past the post electoral system that doesn't show that UKIP support isn't based in the north of the country. There where dozens of constituencies in the north where UKIP finished second mainly to Labour in the 2105 election.

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/mapping-ukips-vote-share/

"While now seen by some as a ‘political honey bee’ ­– that is to say, dying from its own sting – Ukip’s emergence from the fringes to the political mainstream has been undeniably transformative for the shape of British politics.

One particularly notable aspect of their ascension was the party’s ability to challenge Labour in the industrial towns of northern England – a looming spectre in what were once Labour’s heartlands.

In both academic and wider political spheres, this has largely been attributed to Ukip’s appeal to the ‘left-behind’ voters, a substantial constituency of poorer socioeconomic groups and those who espouse traditional values who had been all but abandoned by the liberal consensus in domestic and international politics."

With regards to the people who did not vote UKIP, large swathes of Brexit support also are Conservative voters, and that brings me onto your quote about me saying most brexiteers are Farage supporters? Where did I say that?

To make it clear, my reference to Farage was in the way he (and the SUN a Tory rag) insulted the Europeans many times in the past, and yet when it comes back he throws his toys out the pram. By the way, for the record I think Tusk was an idiot for using the language he came out with last week. No one wins if negotiations break down and a smooth orderly brexit is not agreed.
You stated (in red above)that the majority of brexiteers see farage as a folk hero (you may well have tried to qualify that statement by saying it is mainly northern UKIP voters) but your sentence clearly reads "THE MAJORITY OF BREXITEERS especially northern voters see farage as a folk hero " and the figures prove that is just untrue.
I cannot be bothered to look back through the topic but just in our brief discussions you have labelled leave voters as sun reading,farage supporting UKIP voting uninformed people and possibly mainly northerners.
When you type such crap as "the sun is the rag of choice for most brexiteers" then it becomes very clear that you just have a sneering contempt for anyone who voted to leave and that you consider anyone who did as intellectually inferior to yourself.
Like it or not the fact remains that at least 12,935,575 people who did not vote for UKIP did vote to leave the eu mate.Surely it can only help if both sides stop stereotyping the other,

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Re: The 'I told you so' EU referendum - Officially the Worst Thread Ever

Postby DB10GOONER » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:22 pm

You know, i honestly didn't think this thread could get more tedious. Fuck me was I wrong.... :lol:

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Re: The 'I told you so' EU referendum - Officially the Worst Thread Ever

Postby nut flush gooner » Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:02 pm



Firstly the fact that you use Farage and the sun as barometers of all brexiteers is a very sweeping and condescending viewpoint.After that you elude to most leave voters as only wanting to leave because of immigration.On what is that based? Is it fact based or just your opinion?
To me ,your post, which appears to accuse anyone who may want to leave as being a thick ,farage supporting,sun influenced,knuckle dragging, immigrant hating right winger just compounds my original post.
Its not condescending at all, the majority of Brexiteers especially Northerners who voted for UKIP in their millions, see Farage as a folk hero for sticking up to the EU.

I could have quoted Boris Johnson or Simon Williams, both who have insulted the EU over the last few years. To me it's no big deal, these things happen in politics, but to sit there crying after someone bites back just shows a level of immaturity in my opinion, especially if you keep using references to the Second World war.

And again, I re-iterate the quality of the debate from Brexiteers on this thread is a reflection of the wider country, but if you want to prove otherwise go ahead. I am all ears it would be nice to hear some constructive, well thought out debate for a change.
In the 2015 election 3,881,099 people voted for UKIP giving them one seat in Clacton(hardly the north of the country) and in the 2017 election 594,068 people voted for UKIP.In between these 2 elections in the 2016 eu vote 17,410,742 voted to leave.
This shows that even if you add the 2015 and 2017 UKIP votes together (total 4,475,167) that 12,935,575 people who did not vote for UKIP in either election did vote to leave the eu.
I think it is fair to say that those figures make a mockery of your argument that all/most leave voters are farage supporters or see him as a folk hero or are even UKIP voters.You really should try to stop the sweeping generalisations mate as they do not help your argument.
As i said originally i do not pretend to have the insight and knowledge to accurately predict the future but i do know that this smearing every leave voter as some kind of stupid, easily influenced fool is wrong and unsavoury.
Clacton is an anomaly when it comes to UKIP, but with a first past the post electoral system that doesn't show that UKIP support isn't based in the north of the country. There where dozens of constituencies in the north where UKIP finished second mainly to Labour in the 2105 election.

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/mapping-ukips-vote-share/

"While now seen by some as a ‘political honey bee’ ­– that is to say, dying from its own sting – Ukip’s emergence from the fringes to the political mainstream has been undeniably transformative for the shape of British politics.

One particularly notable aspect of their ascension was the party’s ability to challenge Labour in the industrial towns of northern England – a looming spectre in what were once Labour’s heartlands.

In both academic and wider political spheres, this has largely been attributed to Ukip’s appeal to the ‘left-behind’ voters, a substantial constituency of poorer socioeconomic groups and those who espouse traditional values who had been all but abandoned by the liberal consensus in domestic and international politics."

With regards to the people who did not vote UKIP, large swathes of Brexit support also are Conservative voters, and that brings me onto your quote about me saying most brexiteers are Farage supporters? Where did I say that?

To make it clear, my reference to Farage was in the way he (and the SUN a Tory rag) insulted the Europeans many times in the past, and yet when it comes back he throws his toys out the pram. By the way, for the record I think Tusk was an idiot for using the language he came out with last week. No one wins if negotiations break down and a smooth orderly brexit is not agreed.
You stated (in red above)that the majority of brexiteers see farage as a folk hero (you may well have tried to qualify that statement by saying it is mainly northern UKIP voters) but your sentence clearly reads "THE MAJORITY OF BREXITEERS especially northern voters see farage as a folk hero " and the figures prove that is just untrue.
I cannot be bothered to look back through the topic but just in our brief discussions you have labelled leave voters as sun reading,farage supporting UKIP voting uninformed people and possibly mainly northerners.
When you type such crap as "the sun is the rag of choice for most brexiteers" then it becomes very clear that you just have a sneering contempt for anyone who voted to leave and that you consider anyone who did as intellectually inferior to yourself.
Like it or not the fact remains that at least 12,935,575 people who did not vote for UKIP did vote to leave the eu mate.Surely it can only help if both sides stop stereotyping the other,
Sorry you are misquoting me, it was quite clear what I meant. With regards to my sun comment, ok add the Daily Mail and The Express, I'm not getting into a nitpicking argument. You make a reference about sneering contempt, I have contempt for people who have made a decision based on their narrow mindedness/ignorance and lack of a thought out rational argument for leaving the EU.

Today, our economy has today officially been confirmed as teetering on the brink of recession. And with Brexit looming, it looks like things are going to get much worse before they get better. Like it didn't take a rocket scientist to see this coming.

Gunner Rob
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Re: The 'I told you so' EU referendum - Officially the Worst Thread Ever

Postby Gunner Rob » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:13 am

to back up my argument that Brexiteers in 2019 are stupid and ignorant.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ews-brexit

fair enough if you voted Leave in 2016 - you were manipulated and lied to, but i have zero sympathy today.

anyone who thinks that Brexit is not going to do massive damage to the UK really needs to wake the fuck up.
if you are patriotic you need to now show a little more courage and admit that maybe the wrong decision has been made.

:unionjack:

Gunner Rob
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Re: The 'I told you so' EU referendum - Officially the Worst Thread Ever

Postby Gunner Rob » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:15 am

to back up my argument that Brexiteers in 2019 are stupid and ignorant.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ews-brexit

fair enough if you voted Leave in 2016 - you were manipulated and lied to, but i have zero sympathy today.

anyone who thinks that Brexit is not going to do massive damage to the UK really needs to wake the fuck up.
if you are patriotic you need to now show a little more courage and admit that maybe the wrong decision has been made.

:unionjack:

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Re: The 'I told you so' EU referendum - Officially the Worst Thread Ever

Postby DB10GOONER » Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:07 pm

to back up my argument that Brexiteers in 2019 are stupid and ignorant.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ews-brexit

fair enough if you voted Leave in 2016 - you were manipulated and lied to, but i have zero sympathy today.

anyone who thinks that Brexit is not going to do massive damage to the UK really needs to wake the fuck up.
if you are patriotic you need to now show a little more courage and admit that maybe the wrong decision has been made.

:unionjack:
Rob can you drop the name calling please mate. Once or twice is one thing, but continuous personal insults are against the rules of the forum. It's a volatile topic and people are passionate about it but you can't keep calling anyone that disagrees with you "stupid and ignorant" etc.

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Re: The 'I told you so' EU referendum - Officially the Worst Thread Ever

Postby A11M11 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:00 pm

I read that with interest but I don't think it has any bearing on ignorance or stupidity. All it identifies is that the people chosen to contribute to the article are steeped in the European project as you are.
It was interesting to see the concerns of the Irish and Spanish with regard to the effects that Brexit will have on their economies perhaps they should be more vocal and not remain so silent behind the Brussels continuum.
The whole world is going backwards re possible recession and it's not logical to put all the blame on brexit but if it is a factor then that's all the more reason for the politicians to find common ground .
The problem is that the E,U is not a country it's a political entity with one federalist goal in mind . the zealots that have risen to the top are more worried about their project and unfortunately the people that we have sent to discuss our departure are in complete agreement with them.
On a side issue , the Spanish comment says that Spain is completely in favour of the E.U and whilst like London that may well be true in Madrid the treatment handed to the Catalans and the Brussels condoning reaction to the state organised violence was not unnoticed in other parts of the country.

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Re: The 'I told you so' EU referendum - Officially the Worst Thread Ever

Postby Herd » Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:27 am

You know, i honestly didn't think this thread could get more tedious. Fuck me was I wrong.... :lol:
Feck off and climb back on the scouse whipping thread ,you know you love to flog them ! :shock: :? :wink:

Listen at the end of the day as long as the price of lager cider and ching don't go up I'm not bothered ,the Irish route now supplies more ching than Dover so I think we will be allright as the borders have never presented an obstacle to moving things in shamrockshire and I don't think lager can get more expensive if it tried !

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Re: The 'I told you so' EU referendum - Officially the Worst Thread Ever

Postby Jock Gooner » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:33 pm

I read that with interest but I don't think it has any bearing on ignorance or stupidity. All it identifies is that the people chosen to contribute to the article are steeped in the European project as you are.
It was interesting to see the concerns of the Irish and Spanish with regard to the effects that Brexit will have on their economies perhaps they should be more vocal and not remain so silent behind the Brussels continuum.
The whole world is going backwards re possible recession and it's not logical to put all the blame on brexit but if it is a factor then that's all the more reason for the politicians to find common ground .
The problem is that the E,U is not a country it's a political entity with one federalist goal in mind . the zealots that have risen to the top are more worried about their project and unfortunately the people that we have sent to discuss our departure are in complete agreement with them.
On a side issue , the Spanish comment says that Spain is completely in favour of the E.U and whilst like London that may well be true in Madrid the treatment handed to the Catalans and the Brussels condoning reaction to the state organised violence was not unnoticed in other parts of the country.

That's it in a nutshell for me.

nut flush gooner
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Re: The 'I told you so' EU referendum - Officially the Worst Thread Ever

Postby nut flush gooner » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:48 am

I read that with interest but I don't think it has any bearing on ignorance or stupidity. All it identifies is that the people chosen to contribute to the article are steeped in the European project as you are.
It was interesting to see the concerns of the Irish and Spanish with regard to the effects that Brexit will have on their economies perhaps they should be more vocal and not remain so silent behind the Brussels continuum.
The whole world is going backwards re possible recession and it's not logical to put all the blame on brexit but if it is a factor then that's all the more reason for the politicians to find common ground .
The problem is that the E,U is not a country it's a political entity with one federalist goal in mind . the zealots that have risen to the top are more worried about their project and unfortunately the people that we have sent to discuss our departure are in complete agreement with them.
On a side issue , the Spanish comment says that Spain is completely in favour of the E.U and whilst like London that may well be true in Madrid the treatment handed to the Catalans and the Brussels condoning reaction to the state organised violence was not unnoticed in other parts of the country.

That's it in a nutshell for me.
This is so wrong, from someone who gets his information from dubious sources, to say the least, I am not surprised that he thinks this way.

There is NOT ONE (did I say that clearly enough) country in the EU that would allow centralised rule without the whole thing falling apart. Our government and this has been said for years has the weakest hand against the Europeans, in no way do we have any control over our exit and the terms given. But I am not surprised that one of the conspiracy theorists in this debate thinks that our Prime Minister is happy to bow down to the Europeans whims. It's more like she doesn't have a lot of choice.

The likes of Farage have been quoted as saying, just leave the EU with no deal. Well, he doesn't give a toss about what happens to this country, because he is in the I'm alright Jack brigade. It's as much an ideology for him rather than a well thought out plan.

Brexit is truly an ideology invented by elites mis-sold to the working classes. And yet the working classes can't see it's the elites that have caused their woes over the last 40 years, not unchecked immigration or any strange EU legislation that they keep referring to to justify their argument. If anything employment rights for the working classes have been enhanced thanks to the EU, but people chose to ignore that sort of thing.

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Re: The 'I told you so' EU referendum - Officially the Worst Thread Ever

Postby Gunner Rob » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:26 am

I read that with interest but I don't think it has any bearing on ignorance or stupidity. All it identifies is that the people chosen to contribute to the article are steeped in the European project as you are.
It was interesting to see the concerns of the Irish and Spanish with regard to the effects that Brexit will have on their economies perhaps they should be more vocal and not remain so silent behind the Brussels continuum.
The whole world is going backwards re possible recession and it's not logical to put all the blame on brexit but if it is a factor then that's all the more reason for the politicians to find common ground .
The problem is that the E,U is not a country it's a political entity with one federalist goal in mind . the zealots that have risen to the top are more worried about their project and unfortunately the people that we have sent to discuss our departure are in complete agreement with them.
On a side issue , the Spanish comment says that Spain is completely in favour of the E.U and whilst like London that may well be true in Madrid the treatment handed to the Catalans and the Brussels condoning reaction to the state organised violence was not unnoticed in other parts of the country.

That's it in a nutshell for me.
This is so wrong, from someone who gets his information from dubious sources, to say the least, I am not surprised that he thinks this way.

There is NOT ONE (did I say that clearly enough) country in the EU that would allow centralised rule without the whole thing falling apart. Our government and this has been said for years has the weakest hand against the Europeans, in no way do we have any control over our exit and the terms given. But I am not surprised that one of the conspiracy theorists in this debate thinks that our Prime Minister is happy to bow down to the Europeans whims. It's more like she doesn't have a lot of choice.

The likes of Farage have been quoted as saying, just leave the EU with no deal. Well, he doesn't give a toss about what happens to this country, because he is in the I'm alright Jack brigade. It's as much an ideology for him rather than a well thought out plan.

Brexit is truly an ideology invented by elites mis-sold to the working classes. And yet the working classes can't see it's the elites that have caused their woes over the last 40 years, not unchecked immigration or any strange EU legislation that they keep referring to to justify their argument. If anything employment rights for the working classes have been enhanced thanks to the EU, but people chose to ignore that sort of thing.
Spot on. And why I sometimes get frustrated on here that so many can't see this.

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Re: The 'I told you so' EU referendum - Officially the Worst Thread Ever

Postby The Arsenal Way » Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:50 am

Rob, Robbie, Bob

You really are a uber ignorant snowflake pillock.
Ignorant and self serving. Ever thought of a career in politics?


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