F*cking Old Bill get Away With It Again!!!!

[g88ner]

And g88ner I dont need to prove anything....how wbout you give me the evidence of just 1 conviction when someone died in police custody...............JUST 1.....then we can start our debate.....you'll find you wont be able too though.....yeah mate they all slipped or overdosed....what scum they all are Thank god for the great unviolent poice eh

Hang on, you make an outrageous and totally misleading comment about deaths in police custody, knowing full well that the vast majority of those 1000 deaths would have been from natural causes, alcohol & drug related, underlying health issues, prisoner infighting, etc, and yet you don't think you have to prove anything??

This is what you wrote....

Its a discgrace and a cover up. In the last 50 years over 1000 people have died in police custody....the amount of convictions following these deaths.....zero.....sums it up.

You say it sums it up, but does it really??

In any case, of course there are 'bad' and even corrupt policemen, but there's bad teachers, priests, shop workers, bad doctors, bad mechanics and bad waiters - it's not exclusive, or even endemic, within the policeforce - it's a few bad apples. It's statistically inevitable in a country of 50-60 million+ people.

As for the case related to this post. You shout corruption yet, I ask again - if 3 autopsies fail to determine the cause of death.... can you really not see how difficult it must be to find a person guilty, beyond reasonable doubt, for their death????
- if anything, it's probably MORE DIFFICULT to get convictions in the UK than in more corrupt parts of the world, because evidence and proof are what get a conviction in the UK - after all, this is not a witchhunt, Bren!

[SPUDMASHER]

Absolutely spot on!

Your comment about how difficult it is to get a conviction is so true. For instance, you take the offence of theft.

The legal definition of theft is to "Dishonestly appropriate property, belonging to another, with the intent to permanently deprive them of it". In order for a conviction to be sound the police must prove that:-
the person acted dishonestly,
they appropriated the property (for those that don't know this means they took on the rights of the owner),
that the item concerned was in fact propertyin the first instance,
that it belonged to another
that they did so with intent
and that they permanently deprived them of it.

Every single one of those criteria has to be met. If one isn't then there is legally no offence and no conviction can follow.

Now I know were not talking about theft with this guy or the deaths in custody but it goes to show the extent of proof required to obtain that conviction. People are always happy to beat up on the police as they are easy targets and the police know this too. They are in a job where they are damned if they do and they're damned if they don't. if they had ignored this 'passer by' as he is being painted, and he had stabbed somebody then they would be called useless. They cannot win!

The biggest problem faced by the police in todays society is the ingorance of that society regarding the role of the police. The public as a whole do not understand the powers, or limit of power, that the police have yet feel qualified to verbally assasinate them with alarming regularity. I find it ironic that even the most anti police citizens soon remember where to turn when they want a little help!

[northbankbren]

Well even the police are admitting that what the copper done was unjustified......Gross Misconduct....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-10777287

G20 death Pc faces gross misconduct disciplinary action

Ian Tomlinson collapsed shortly after the incident during the G20 protests in 2009

The officer who struck Ian Tomlinson before his death at the G20 protests will face disciplinary proceedings for alleged gross misconduct.

Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Paul Stephenson informed the Home Affairs Committee on Tuesday morning.

He said the force should move "swiftly with proceedings".

In a statement, Mr Tomlinson's family said there was an "overwhelming argument" for the proceedings to be held in public.

Last week, the director of public prosecutions said there would be no criminal proceedings over Mr Tomlinson's death.

Pc Simon Harwood, a member of Scotland Yard's territorial support group, was filmed striking the 47-year-old newspaper seller with his baton and pushing him to the ground in the City of London on 1 April 2009.

Sir Paul told a meeting of the Commons Home Affairs Committee he was "disturbed" by the amateur video footage showing the incident.

Continue reading the main story [#skip_feature_02] “Start QuoteThere is an overwhelming argument in this case that the proceedings should be held in public.â€

[g88ner]

But this is the point, Bren - you're saying it's a cover up, a disgrace and mentioned curruption yet you've just linked to an article that says the police are going down the route of gross misconduct charges...

so, what's your point? what corruption are you refering to? because, as you said, even the police are after disciplinary action.

I'm confused by what your stance is, to be honest.

You seemed to be suggesting the police force was a corrupt institution (which is what I've been arguing AGAINST!) yet now I'm not sure that's your view after all

And even if it's just that you're outraged by the policeman's actions in this one case, that doesn't explain your stance on charging a person for manslaughter (something you said on page 2) when the autopsy results were inconclusive? (apparently that amounted to corruption and a disgrace??? please explain! )

And then there's the outrageous comments about the 1000 people who died in custody, which apparently "summed things up" - what is sums up though, I'm still not sure because you haven't expanded on it properly.

Sorry, I think you're a top bloke, but on this issue I just think you're whole argument is a confused mess, mate

[northbankbren]

My personal belief is that the officer should have been charged with manslaughter.

Due to him being a police officer he got away with these charges.

If you or I had done that, we would have been charged with manslaughter.

I have only highlighted the gross misconduct charge due to the amount of people who seem to think what the officer did was justified, and that now even the police are now admitting to gross misconduct.

But I do not agree with these charges and feel the officer should be charged with manslaughter. Yes I do feel there is corruption within the police and feel it is far more wide scale than people think. (Check out the book Filth by Duncan MacLaughlin and you will find out first hand what kind of things go on at Scotland Yard).

Why I ask has it taken the police this long also to bring these charges towards the officer? It just really stinks. And on the deaths in custody, do you not agree that it is a little suspicious that not one charge has ever been made against officers? not one, once again to me that stinks.

I just find it really sad that this can happen, get caught on film, and the copper basically gets away with it.....again if that was you or I we'd be fucked!!!

oh and g88ner.... i love you too mate!!!!

[pixie]

My personal belief is that the officer should have been charged with manslaughter.

Due to him being a police officer he got away with these charges.

If you or I had done that, we would have been charged with manslaughter.

I have only highlighted the gross misconduct charge due to the amount of people who seem to think what the officer did was justified, and that now even the police are now admitting to gross misconduct.

But I do not agree with these charges and feel the officer should be charged with manslaughter. Yes I do feel there is corruption within the police and feel it is far more wide scale than people think. (Check out the book Filth by Duncan MacLaughlin and you will find out first hand what kind of things go on at Scotland Yard).

Why I ask has it taken the police this long also to bring these charges towards the officer? It just really stinks. And on the deaths in custody, do you not agree that it is a little suspicious that not one charge has ever been made against officers? not one, once again to me that stinks.

I just find it really sad that this can happen, get caught on film, and the copper basically gets away with it.....again if that was you or I we'd be fucked!!!

oh and g88ner.... i love you too mate!!!!

So what you are saying that you expect riots and violent protests to be controlled without the use of physical force? And if you see that video properly you`ll see people walking freely down a road in front of the the police cordon. Nothing was stopping Tomlinson from doing the same. As for deaths in custody......so? Getting yourself in that situation is more or less voluntary!

[QuartzGooner]

So what you are saying that you expect riots and violent protests to be controlled without the use of physical force? And if you see that video properly you`ll see people walking freely down a road in front of the the police cordon. Nothing was stopping Tomlinson from doing the same. As for deaths in custody......so? Getting yourself in that situation is more or less voluntary!

The bloke was selling the Evening Standard, not protesting.


Cannot agree that going into custody is "Voluntary".

I once attended a police station because I was told to by police who came to my house, once at the station I certainly voluntarily agreed to be questioned but then I was arrested and held, which was not voluntary!

The charges were dropped though.

[SPUDMASHER]

My personal belief is that the officer should have been charged with manslaughter.

Due to him being a police officer he got away with these charges.

If you or I had done that, we would have been charged with manslaughter.

I have only highlighted the gross misconduct charge due to the amount of people who seem to think what the officer did was justified, and that now even the police are now admitting to gross misconduct.

But I do not agree with these charges and feel the officer should be charged with manslaughter. Yes I do feel there is corruption within the police and feel it is far more wide scale than people think. (Check out the book Filth by Duncan MacLaughlin and you will find out first hand what kind of things go on at Scotland Yard).

Why I ask has it taken the police this long also to bring these charges towards the officer? It just really stinks. And on the deaths in custody, do you not agree that it is a little suspicious that not one charge has ever been made against officers? not one, once again to me that stinks.

I just find it really sad that this can happen, get caught on film, and the copper basically gets away with it.....again if that was you or I we'd be fucked!!!

oh and g88ner.... i love you too mate!!!!

I can answer the bit highlighted in bold. It is because to have taken proceedings of any nature prior to that investigation having concluded would have been against basic employment law. They cannot act in any way other than to put the person on paid leave pending the enquiry in case it prejudices the investigation. Had they done that you would have probably moaned that he got to sit at home being payed by the taxpayer for 15 months! Remember what I said earlier? "Damned if they do, damned if they don't".

[northbankbren]

I can answer the bit highlighted in bold. It is because to have taken proceedings of any nature prior to that investigation having concluded would have been against basic employment law. They cannot act in any way other than to put the person on paid leave pending the enquiry in case it prejudices the investigation. Had they done that you would have probably moaned that he got to sit at home being payed by the taxpayer for 15 months! Remember what I said earlier? "Damned if they do, damned if they don't".

quesion mashed potato as you clearly do have some understanding of the law. If it was you or I would it be classed as criminal law rather than employment law?

[Bergkamp-Genius]

So what you are saying that you expect riots and violent protests to be controlled without the use of physical force? And if you see that video properly you`ll see people walking freely down a road in front of the the police cordon. Nothing was stopping Tomlinson from doing the same. As for deaths in custody......so? Getting yourself in that situation is more or less voluntary!

The bloke was selling the Evening Standard, not protesting.


Cannot agree that going into custody is "Voluntary".

I once attended a police station because I was told to by police who came to my house, once at the station I certainly voluntarily agreed to be questioned but then I was arrested and held, which was not voluntary!

The charges were dropped though.

Maybe you can point out where the Evening Standards he was selling were..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HECMVdl-9SQ

[northbankbren]

Maybe you can point out where the Evening Standards he was selling were..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HECMVdl-9SQ

The guy had finished work and was on his way home.

[SPUDMASHER]

I can answer the bit highlighted in bold. It is because to have taken proceedings of any nature prior to that investigation having concluded would have been against basic employment law. They cannot act in any way other than to put the person on paid leave pending the enquiry in case it prejudices the investigation. Had they done that you would have probably moaned that he got to sit at home being payed by the taxpayer for 15 months! Remember what I said earlier? "Damned if they do, damned if they don't".

quesion mashed potato as you clearly do have some understanding of the law. If it was you or I would it be classed as criminal law rather than employment law?

No it wouldn't. It would be the same for you too. The only difference being that in private sector they'd find a way to dismiss you much easier than in public sector.

[northbankbren]

I can answer the bit highlighted in bold. It is because to have taken proceedings of any nature prior to that investigation having concluded would have been against basic employment law. They cannot act in any way other than to put the person on paid leave pending the enquiry in case it prejudices the investigation. Had they done that you would have probably moaned that he got to sit at home being payed by the taxpayer for 15 months! Remember what I said earlier? "Damned if they do, damned if they don't".

quesion mashed potato as you clearly do have some understanding of the law. If it was you or I would it be classed as criminal law rather than employment law?

No it wouldn't. It would be the same for you too. The only difference being that in private sector they'd find a way to dismiss you much easier than in public sector.

I meant if It was you or I who had shoved tomlinson to the ground as neither of us are coppers....what type of law would our case be classed as?

[SPUDMASHER]

Oh right sorry, I misunderstood.

f he died at the time then you would have been arrested on suspicion of murder. That doesn't mean to say you would actually be charged with murder it is just a way of going to the nearest arrestable offence in order to remove your liberty and make you traceable in the system. Being arrested for something and being charged are different.
But if he got up again instead then you could be be charged with common assault but only if you were seen committing the offence by an officer. It is a lesser class of offence and as such is arrestable only when certain conditions are met. In this case the condition is being seen by an officer. However, if he then subsquently died within 1 year and 1 day of the asault, and a link can be made back to the assault, you can still be charged at any time with murder.

The difference being that if you or I did it we wouldn't be doing it in the lawful course of our employment. Any officer has to consider the total safety of the greater majority. If one individual needs a slap etc in order to preserve that then it is basically okay. It is mostly about the term 'reasonable force'. I don't think the officers level of force was unreasonable given the circumstances and potential escalation of the situation. The likelyhood that any person would die from a fall like that is very low.
Sometimes it really is just pure bloody bad luck!

[northbankbren]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zv1_D6ZOQDM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjdbgbsluZ0