Paris attacks

[Nos89]

I'm waiting in dread for the first member of the chattering clases to tell us 'it's nothing to do with religión ...'

The Paris attacks wasn't about religion. They've seen the French as a weak link security wise and hit them again. They use religion as a guide but they've bombed Iraq and Syria in the last week, and in Nigeria Al-Shabab attack took the lives of 147 people. They're not just hitting christian countries. They cause terror to affect our way of life and to divide Muslims in western Europe. Bombing the shit out of their land in Syria wont do much because its the extreme ideaology that they believe is right, much like Nazism and KKK in USA. It will get worse as they haven't peaked in Europe. I reckon if they attack a city in Germany and the death toll matches the Paris attacks, there will be a swift end to IS. Until then we have to sit tight.

[Nos89]

Nut Flush

Whilst ISIL as an organisation was born fairly recently, it evolved out of mergers of other existing militant groups.
To claim the Iraq war was the cause? I see that as a misnomer.
Islam has been at war with the Christian West for around 1000 years.

It has everything to do with Islam.
To claim that what these people did in Paris was not in accordance with Islam, that they just had a twisted interpretation is not the full story.
There are too many people worldwide doing violence in the name of Islam, using Islamic scriptures to justify what they do, for anyone to justifiably claim there is no link to Islam for these atrocities.

I know that there are contradictions, that in one part of the Koran they tell Muslims to attack Jews, in other part they tell Muslims to treat Jews with respect.
It is part of the early history of Islam that Muhammad made war on the Jewish tribes of Arabia.
(That's one more bugbear, how many claim my people are recent invaders from Poland yet in their own scriptures they gloat over fighting with Jewish tribes in the Middle East 1400 years ago!)

But nothing short of changing the Koran is going to stop some of these attacks, and even then fanatics will continue.

I don't hate Muslims, and there are level headed Muslims who focus on charity and reason, but there are things in the very essence of that religion which need looking at.

Its a similar story to the Bible, old testament "eye for an eye", new testament " forgive, love not war". Don't forget the KKK was/ is an extreme ideology of Christianity. ISIL believe in an extreme ideology of Islam. Difficulty is how can the West negotiate with people who don't like the way we live and are causing fear through terror that impacts the relative freedom our societies have.

[OneBardGooner]

I would go further so much further that i darent elaborate

You're talking about this aren't you Sid

[QuartzGooner]

There is no concept of "Eye for an eye" in my religion, the phrase in Hebrew does not say that, it refers to monetary compensation for violent injury.

People claim the bible is "fairy tales" but it is a history book, so is the Koran.
The miracles included can be debated and are hard to believe for modern secular people, but the books describe real wars, real migrations, real people, whose existence is on record and are studied by historians.

[northbank123]

I'm waiting in dread for the first member of the chattering clases to tell us 'it's nothing to do with religión ...'

The Paris attacks wasn't about religion. They've seen the French as a weak link security wise and hit them again. They use religion as a guide but they've bombed Iraq and Syria in the last week, and in Nigeria Al-Shabab attack took the lives of 147 people. They're not just hitting christian countries. They cause terror to affect our way of life and to divide Muslims in western Europe. Bombing the shit out of their land in Syria wont do much because its the extreme ideaology that they believe is right, much like Nazism and KKK in USA. It will get worse as they haven't peaked in Europe. I reckon if they attack a city in Germany and the death toll matches the Paris attacks, there will be a swift end to IS. Until then we have to sit tight.

The point he was making is that the attack was motivated by the assailant's religious beliefs, not the victims.

[Yankee_Gooner_Dandee]

There is not much we (the Western world) can do about these terrorists. So we put troops on the ground, destroy Syria, wipe out 98% of ISIS. Now what? Another group will form in their place. It has been going on for 1000 years and it will continue for a thousand more (if humans are on this planet that long). All religion is a disease, but this one in particular is a cancer to the world. They cannot be reasoned with. They are so small minded that they believe their only purpose is to destroy the lives of others.

They WANT a fight, so that they can continue to justify their actions. Innocent civilian Muslims (if there is such a thing) will be killed in the fight, by American bombs or English bombs, and they will use that to justify suicide bombers in Paris, London, New York, Mumbai, where ever. It's a never ending cycle leading up to the day when eventually someone drops a nuclear bomb on someone else.

[GranadaJoe]

I'm waiting in dread for the first member of the chattering clases to tell us 'it's nothing to do with religión ...'

The Paris attacks wasn't about religion. They've seen the French as a weak link security wise and hit them again. They use religion as a guide but they've bombed Iraq and Syria in the last week, and in Nigeria Al-Shabab attack took the lives of 147 people. They're not just hitting christian countries. They cause terror to affect our way of life and to divide Muslims in western Europe. Bombing the shit out of their land in Syria wont do much because its the extreme ideaology that they believe is right, much like Nazism and KKK in USA. It will get worse as they haven't peaked in Europe. I reckon if they attack a city in Germany and the death toll matches the Paris attacks, there will be a swift end to IS. Until then we have to sit tight.

Can I ask how you know it wasn't about religion?
The attackers were all sunni muslims (it has been reported) and there are many reports from Paris eyewitnesses that the attackers were shouting Allah akbar, extolling jihad etc. They appear to believe it was about religion. How can you be so sure that you are right and they are wrong?

[GranadaJoe]

There is not much we (the Western world) can do about these terrorists. So we put troops on the ground, destroy Syria, wipe out 98% of ISIS. Now what? Another group will form in their place. It has been going on for 1000 years and it will continue for a thousand more (if humans are on this planet that long). All religion is a disease, but this one in particular is a cancer to the world. They cannot be reasoned with. They are so small minded that they believe their only purpose is to destroy the lives of others.

They WANT a fight, so that they can continue to justify their actions. Innocent civilian Muslims (if there is such a thing) will be killed in the fight, by American bombs or English bombs, and they will use that to justify suicide bombers in Paris, London, New York, Mumbai, where ever. It's a never ending cycle leading up to the day when eventually someone drops a nuclear bomb on someone else.

I broadly agree with you, but their work is made considerably easier by the multi-million dollar support they get from Saudi, Qatar etc.
As difficult as it would be, we should try to isolate these countries economically and diplomatically.

[northbank123]

Unfortunately with Saudi Arabia we are willing to piss away all diplomatic leverage as soon as some fucking idiot ex-pat decides he fancies having a go at making his own wine and breaking one of the most fundamental laws in one of the most oppressive countries on the planet.

[GranadaJoe]

There is no concept of "Eye for an eye" in my religion, the phrase in Hebrew does not say that, it refers to monetary compensation for violent injury.

People claim the bible is "fairy tales" but it is a history book, so is the Koran.
The miracles included can be debated and are hard to believe for modern secular people, but the books describe real wars, real migrations, real people, whose existence is on record and are studied by historians.

The Koran is a collection of sayings and stories. There's virtually no chronology. It also includes the following facts; the sun sets in a muddy swamp to the west of africa, salt and fresh water cannot mix, sperm is produced somewhere half way up your back, that Alexander the Great was a devout muslim and lived to old age, that Mary was Moses's sister. Not really a history book, is it?

Who wrote the OT and when was it written? Noone knows and thousands of years after the alleged events.
It contains talking snakes and donkeys, men who live 900+ years, and endless contradictions. Despite Israel producing some of the best archaelogists in the world, who were sent to find proof of the OT stories there is very little evidence for many of the key stories and I'm sure you've read Leviticus. It's more of a Jamie Oliver cook book for how god likes his burnt offerings than a history (that's when it's not prescribing hideous violence on all sorts of people). A history book? really?

[Nos89]

I'm waiting in dread for the first member of the chattering clases to tell us 'it's nothing to do with religión ...'

The Paris attacks wasn't about religion. They've seen the French as a weak link security wise and hit them again. They use religion as a guide but they've bombed Iraq and Syria in the last week, and in Nigeria Al-Shabab attack took the lives of 147 people. They're not just hitting christian countries. They cause terror to affect our way of life and to divide Muslims in western Europe. Bombing the shit out of their land in Syria wont do much because its the extreme ideaology that they believe is right, much like Nazism and KKK in USA. It will get worse as they haven't peaked in Europe. I reckon if they attack a city in Germany and the death toll matches the Paris attacks, there will be a swift end to IS. Until then we have to sit tight.

Can I ask how you know it wasn't about religion?
The attackers were all sunni muslims (it has been reported) and there are many reports from Paris eyewitnesses that the attackers were shouting Allah akbar, extolling jihad etc. They appear to believe it was about religion. How can you be so sure that you are right and they are wrong?

Let me put it tho way, I don't believe this attack was directly due to religious beliefs. In January the attack was in reaction to the magazine printing insulting images of Allah. This attack was random and has been linked as a reaction from IS to the French participation in the bombing of IS strongholds in Syria. I'm certainly not saying that I am right and eye witness accounts are wrong. There is a religious element as they are suicide bombers and to be rewarded in their ideology they say those words before doing what they do. The attack at the stadium was to cause as much terror as possible, there were muslim players on the pitch and there probably would have been a good percentage of muslims in the crowd given the multi religious nature of the two countries. I'm not disputing that this didn't start with religion, however, the Paris attacks seem to have moved the fight up a level from a disagreement in religious beliefs to an imposing terror into a way of life they don't agree with.

[northbank123]

every act of carnage Islamic State carry out is because of religion.

The clue is in the name in case you missed it.

[casgooner]

It is about religion, if you don't agree with their perceived version of it you are the infidels and that includes other Muslims. Anyone who was caught up in the carnage on Friday, whatever faith or lack of, would have been considered a correct target for them, because they were there! Sadly, they are also attacking Muslims in Middle Eastern countries and anywhere else in the world if they don't believe in their ideology. Its a huge problem that is not going to go away.

[QuartzGooner]

The Koran is a collection of sayings and stories. There's virtually no chronology. It also includes the following facts; the sun sets in a muddy swamp to the west of africa, salt and fresh water cannot mix, sperm is produced somewhere half way up your back, that Alexander the Great was a devout muslim and lived to old age, that Mary was Moses's sister. Not really a history book, is it?

Who wrote the OT and when was it written? Noone knows and thousands of years after the alleged events.
It contains talking snakes and donkeys, men who live 900+ years, and endless contradictions. Despite Israel producing some of the best archaelogists in the world, who were sent to find proof of the OT stories there is very little evidence for many of the key stories and I'm sure you've read Leviticus. It's more of a Jamie Oliver cook book for how god likes his burnt offerings than a history (that's when it's not prescribing hideous violence on all sorts of people). A history book? really?

I am not Muslim so I do not believe everything that is in the Koran (i.e. there are significant theological differences between Jews and Muslims based on us believing Isaac was taken to Mount Moriah by Abraham, whereas Muslims believe Ishmael was taken there), but that does not discredit the Koran from listing other events that actually happened.

The Old Testament (as you call it, we call it Tanach) was finished two thousand years ago.
It was written by Prophets who lived then, and edited by various teachers whose work we study.
The first five books were written by G-D.

The stories in it contain allegory, it needs serious study to be understood and is best done with knowledge of Hebrew and Aramaic.

The world was not the same in the time sit was compiled, there have been geophysical and climate changes, and spiritual changes and so some things that happened then so not happen now.

The arrival of Hebrews into the land of Canaan is documented by historians, as if the existence of Joseph (the Technicoloured Dreamcoat Joseph) by many Egyptologists, where he is known as Imhotep.

The idea of the Big Bang of Creation is found in the first line of the whole book, whereas in antiquity the universe was thought to be constant.

Leviticus contains many sacrificial descriptions, these were carried out at the Temples in Jerusalem. The remains of the second Temple stand bang in the middle of that city, there is a huge wall and platform which all can see and which are at the very heart of the conflict.

[storrmin571]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34849063

Putin isn't going to stop. Haven't these people realised that Russia don't give two fucks and will not play nicely. All IS need to do now is start a fight with China.