The 'I told you so' EU referendum - Officially the Worst Thread Ever

[northbank123]

The EU have absolutely fuck all to do with human rights. Or they should have anyway - each member state is a party to the European Convention on Human Rights which is set up specifically to protect human rights so it is just more mission creep by the EU straying into that area.

France's scaremongering about the Calais border just underlines how desperate the EU are to keep the UK in. They can't afford to lose such a behemoth - we are basically like Germany in that we prop up the European economy but unlike them we do not wield ultimate influence in return. The whole project will fucking unravel if we go.

France can fuck right off. They tried desperately to keep as much red tape in financial regulation in the EU as possible because it benefits them if London remains handicapped. They have fucking fleeced us on the Common Agricultural Policy and numerous other areas. So I will fucking laugh at them if we do vote to leave them inside that burning prison.

[casgooner]

We should have had a poll in this thread, shouldn't we?

Would have done one, but guess what? I don't know how to put a poll up.

Can you at least iron?

Don't even own one!!!

[casgooner]

We should have had a poll in this thread, shouldn't we?

Would have done one, but guess what? I don't know how to put a poll up.

How do you keep the washing off the ground then

You need a dictionary for spelling and meaning!!!!

[Chippy]

Blimey loads of claims on here without a shred of evidence. Be careful what you wish for!

I spent my entire career in international logistics with major multi-nationals. Believe me you do not want to go back to the 1970s when trucks could sit at borders for days or weeks. Whole lorry loads returned because of a slight mistake in the paperwork, or if the driver lost it or used it to wipe his arse. That's just a tiny example of how things would get worse.

Companies leaving is not scaremongering. I know that all the companies I worked for would move their offices out of the UK if Brexit happened. It's a no-brainer.

Those of you saying we could negotiate a trade deal, do know that countries like Switzerland and Norway have to pay in to the EU budget and have free movement of people without any say in the rules of the EU, don't you.

In short I agree with Nut Flush, the UK leaving the EU would be a total disaster.

Oh and I know how to do a poll.

[nut flush gooner]

I have voted conservative pretty much all of my adult life, and voted for Boris to be mayor of london.

Quite a funny character, his "bungling idiot" approach is quite endearing. BUT, if he is responsible for us leaving the EU, the loss of thousands of jobs a weaker currency (sterling has fallen through the floor today because of the Boris effect) and he makes it to be the next leader of the Conservatives, I will abstain at the next General Election.

There are arguments for leaving the EU but our relationship with India, China and the US is crucial for the future of this country. If the consequence of leaving the EU is losing investment from all these nations then IMO it just isn't worth it. I have worked for companies that offer services to inward investing overseas firms, and have seen all of these countries set up satellite operations in the UK creating hundreds if not thousands of skilled well paid jobs over the last decade. One US firm alone went from employing 3 employees in 2004 to 200 plus today. That's just my personal experience and it's before you even start looking at large ftse 100 companies who have said they will relocate jobs if we leave the EU.

The big issue (and my only point of uncertainty) is the economic impact/risk of leaving. The Remain campaign will wildly scaremonger whilst the Leave campaign will brashly deny any sort of risk - we won't get any sort of sensible information or debate on the point.

The reality is that nobody knows what will happen. Nobody will know whether companies will pull out of the UK, nobody will know what sort of trade agreements we will be able to negotiate (although bank on short-term pettyness from the EU if we do leave) and how they effectively they will work in practice. Foreign-owned companies and big UK companies will exaggerate their views on the benefit of EU membership to try and pressure people.

In my view the UK can undoubtedly compete and hold clout in the global market, particularly in financial services which the EU shafts us over because France will refuse to foster better cross-border trade in this sector because Paris cannot compete with London so benefits greatly from EU inefficiency on this front. Much smaller countries have negotiated a whole raft of free-trade deals with world superpowers and I haven't heard it mentioned how our ability to implement protectionist policies (not least regarding Chinese steel dumping for example) will strengthen our economy. That said, the global economy is still fragile and a lot more cautious than a decade ago, and especially with the short-term uncertainty it's not the best time to be rolling the dice. Then again, when is it?

Don't know where you think that we can hold clout in the Global Market, we are the equivalent of a Europa League qualifying team. Our main strengths are in the professional services sectors (including financial services, accountancy, law and technology) which inevitably would be affected by Brexit, our manufacturing base has been smashed to pieces by the likes of China.

This is why we treat the leaders of China and India to lavish receptions when they visit the UK because we live in a Global economy and these up and coming countries who already have bigger economies than the UK, have the investment clout to create wealth and jobs in this country. They have both indicated that being outside the EU would be to our detriment.

You mention the protectionist policies, do you honestly think that other countries will not reciprocate anything we do? That is like a move back to the dark ages.

Most people who want vote out couldn't write their reasoning on the back of a fag packet, and most of them use one word immigration.

[the playing mantis]

Most people who want vote out couldn't write their reasoning on the back of a fag packet, and most of them use one word immigration.

and whats wrong with that?

economiclly most experts dont know and think the economic costs will balance out. owever we are the 5th largst economy so i think we would be ok. its against the eu's instreetss to put prohinitive tariffs against us, we are a bigger market for them they they are to us, so we can easily do tit for tat if they did which they wouldnt risk

know one really knows what will happen economy wise. there are some things that are known however such as reclaiming soverignity and control over our own matters on our terms. who says we want to copy norway in ite entirity? they are a small econmy with one massive industry propping in up. they have taxation without represenation in the eu effectively but i would think the uk a much bigger, more powerful economy could get better terms. we can control who comes in and stop the ridiculous population growth thats happening here. i suppose it depnds where your priority lies. purely economic where maybe we will be a bit worse off in the short term or if all the non economic positives outweigh it.

maybe there will be short erm pain economically but most 'experts' seem to think that will equalise out. people fear for british jobs, but in europe at least as costs in eastern europe inevetiable go up and we retain a semi skilled workforce they wont shift en masse. toyota/honda for exampleetc have invested far too much in infrastruture to simple up stick and move.

its a exactly like the wenger debate retain stuck with a failing instituion that we know wont ever change for our benefit and we all hate, simply through fear of the unknown. surely we have to take that chance that things can be better rather than stuck with the crappy status quo regardless of short term pain

[Sean]

A number of people just want Britain to be run by Britain. We did alright as an island nation(s) for almost 900 years.

I don't want policy dictated to us by a pen-pusher from Brussels or Strasbourg (TOF? ), nor do I want Washington DC running our country. Jobs and industries have been torn out of our country for decades anyway. These scaremongering politician wankers can take a running jump. It's time to try something else.

Not to mention that when we joined the EEC it was not the EU superstate it is trying to be today. Britain deserves a choice based on the state of the EU today (and it's a fucking mess).

[northbank123]

Agree with the above two posts. There's nothing wrong with making a decision not solely based on economics, and the reality is that the economic arguments are all bluster because nobody knows what will happen and besides any useful information is being suppressed.

The EU is a doomed project that is held together with sticking powers and it's only going one way. Even more outward expansion (Turkey - how ridiculous), even more political integration, even more bureaucracy, even more judicial overreach and even more of Germany trying to dictate to everybody else. These 'concessions' we have got are useless and don't even nearly effectively address the problems with the EU or people's concerns. If the EU isn't working for us now Christ knows what it will be like in a decade.

[Sean]

There is a lot of political and monetary blackmail going on. 'Stay in or you'll lose your job' etc.

It may seem an absurd notion to some, but some things are more important than money. To take back our independence would be the one bit of hope that this country won't go down the tubes as it has done politically and culturally since the 70s (or the war).

Having control of our own borders would be nice too. Bring Turkey into the EU? Fuck sake.

To actually invest in our own people would be nice as well. Why do you think there's a growing underclass of chavs? There aren't enough jobs and there aren't enough industries. Our country sold out to the Japanese decades ago and are now selling out the the Chinese. It is reprehensible. I don't want a race to the bottom, no matter how much our globalist leaders may want that. We can't all work in call centres or in retail. It's soul-destroying. I despair at the jobs pool in this country. I despair at our country continually putting other nation's people above their own, being the world's policeman and America's lackey. There are many of our own people, including ex-military, who are homeless. Now the NHS and the welfare state is under threat despite being overloaded. What the fuck have we become?

[nut flush gooner]

Most people who want vote out couldn't write their reasoning on the back of a fag packet, and most of them use one word immigration.

and whats wrong with that?

economiclly most experts dont know and think the economic costs will balance out. owever we are the 5th largst economy so i think we would be ok. its against the eu's instreetss to put prohinitive tariffs against us, we are a bigger market for them they they are to us, so we can easily do tit for tat if they did which they wouldnt risk

know one really knows what will happen economy wise. there are some things that are known however such as reclaiming soverignity and control over our own matters on our terms. who says we want to copy norway in ite entirity? they are a small econmy with one massive industry propping in up. they have taxation without represenation in the eu effectively but i would think the uk a much bigger, more powerful economy could get better terms. we can control who comes in and stop the ridiculous population growth thats happening here. i suppose it depnds where your priority lies. purely economic where maybe we will be a bit worse off in the short term or if all the non economic positives outweigh it.

maybe there will be short erm pain economically but most 'experts' seem to think that will equalise out. people fear for british jobs, but in europe at least as costs in eastern europe inevetiable go up and we retain a semi skilled workforce they wont shift en masse. toyota/honda for exampleetc have invested far too much in infrastruture to simple up stick and move.

its a exactly like the wenger debate retain stuck with a failing instituion that we know wont ever change for our benefit and we all hate, simply through fear of the unknown. surely we have to take that chance that things can be better rather than stuck with the crappy status quo regardless of short term pain

Not having a good day are you? Have you ever thought about the true net impact on our economy of immigrants? If you actually did some research rather than believe what the Daily Mail says, you would know that immigrants pay into the economy more than they take out, ie they are net contributors.

Yet you think its ok to skin another football fan for the England vs Wales tickets. It's scary and sad that there are millions of people who think in the same way as you do.

[nut flush gooner]

A number of people just want Britain to be run by Britain. We did alright as an island nation(s) for almost 900 years.

I don't want policy dictated to us by a pen-pusher from Brussels or Strasbourg (TOF? ), nor do I want Washington DC running our country. Jobs and industries have been torn out of our country for decades anyway. These scaremongering politician wankers can take a running jump. It's time to try something else.

Not to mention that when we joined the EEC it was not the EU superstate it is trying to be today. Britain deserves a choice based on the state of the EU today (and it's a fucking mess).

It's called the global economy bro, gotta move with the times or get left behind.

[augie]

There is a lot of political and monetary blackmail going on. 'Stay in or you'll lose your job' etc.

It may seem an absurd notion to some, but some things are more important than money. To take back our independence would be the one bit of hope that this country won't go down the tubes as it has done politically and culturally since the 70s (or the war).

Having control of our own borders would be nice too. Bring Turkey into the EU? Fuck sake.

To actually invest in our own people would be nice as well. Why do you think there's a growing underclass of chavs? There aren't enough jobs and there aren't enough industries. Our country sold out to the Japanese decades ago and are now selling out the the Chinese. It is reprehensible. I don't want a race to the bottom, no matter how much our globalist leaders may want that. We can't all work in call centres or in retail. It's soul-destroying. I despair at the jobs pool in this country. I despair at our country continually putting other nation's people above their own, being the world's policeman and America's lackey. There are many of our own people, including ex-military, who are homeless. Now the NHS and the welfare state is under threat despite being overloaded. What the fuck have we become?

Whether the uk stay in or opt out is nothing to do with me, but I do think that your argument contradicts itself slightly here - you say that money isn't the most important thing but at the same time you are advocating investing in your own people.........investment requires money.
Also I will say that if you honestly believe that money isn't the most important thing then you clearly haven't been affected by the recent downturn in the economy - I have seen honest hardworking people who have spent years in employment paying taxes to the country, suddenly lose their jobs and struggling to survive These people have families and homes that they are financially committed to (via mortgages) and are really struggling to keep their homes. You should try telling these people that money isn't the most important thing

[nut flush gooner]

There is a lot of political and monetary blackmail going on. 'Stay in or you'll lose your job' etc.

It may seem an absurd notion to some, but some things are more important than money. To take back our independence would be the one bit of hope that this country won't go down the tubes as it has done politically and culturally since the 70s (or the war).

Having control of our own borders would be nice too. Bring Turkey into the EU? Fuck sake.

To actually invest in our own people would be nice as well. Why do you think there's a growing underclass of chavs? There aren't enough jobs and there aren't enough industries. Our country sold out to the Japanese decades ago and are now selling out the the Chinese. It is reprehensible. I don't want a race to the bottom, no matter how much our globalist leaders may want that. We can't all work in call centres or in retail. It's soul-destroying. I despair at the jobs pool in this country. I despair at our country continually putting other nation's people above their own, being the world's policeman and America's lackey. There are many of our own people, including ex-military, who are homeless. Now the NHS and the welfare state is under threat despite being overloaded. What the fuck have we become?

Whether the uk stay in or opt out is nothing to do with me, but I do think that your argument contradicts itself slightly here - you say that money isn't the most important thing but at the same time you are advocating investing in your own people.........investment requires money.
Also I will say that if you honestly believe that money isn't the most important thing then you clearly haven't been affected by the recent downturn in the economy - I have seen honest hardworking people who have spent years in employment paying taxes to the country, suddenly lose their jobs and struggling to survive These people have families and homes that they are financially committed to (via mortgages) and are really struggling to keep their homes. You should try telling these people that money isn't the most important thing

This whole debate is a clusterfuck imo, everyone has a democratic right to vote in or out that's fine with me, but when you choose to vote either way make sure you understand why and that it doesn't boil down to xenophobia, history or sentiment.

[nut flush gooner]

There is a lot of political and monetary blackmail going on. 'Stay in or you'll lose your job' etc.

It may seem an absurd notion to some, but some things are more important than money. To take back our independence would be the one bit of hope that this country won't go down the tubes as it has done politically and culturally since the 70s (or the war).

Having control of our own borders would be nice too. Bring Turkey into the EU? Fuck sake.

To actually invest in our own people would be nice as well. Why do you think there's a growing underclass of chavs? There aren't enough jobs and there aren't enough industries. Our country sold out to the Japanese decades ago and are now selling out the the Chinese. It is reprehensible. I don't want a race to the bottom, no matter how much our globalist leaders may want that. We can't all work in call centres or in retail. It's soul-destroying. I despair at the jobs pool in this country. I despair at our country continually putting other nation's people above their own, being the world's policeman and America's lackey. There are many of our own people, including ex-military, who are homeless. Now the NHS and the welfare state is under threat despite being overloaded. What the fuck have we become?

Whether the uk stay in or opt out is nothing to do with me, but I do think that your argument contradicts itself slightly here - you say that money isn't the most important thing but at the same time you are advocating investing in your own people.........investment requires money.
Also I will say that if you honestly believe that money isn't the most important thing then you clearly haven't been affected by the recent downturn in the economy - I have seen honest hardworking people who have spent years in employment paying taxes to the country, suddenly lose their jobs and struggling to survive These people have families and homes that they are financially committed to (via mortgages) and are really struggling to keep their homes. You should try telling these people that money isn't the most important thing

This whole debate is a brain clusterfuck imo, everyone has a democratic right to vote in or out that's fine with me, but when you choose to vote either way make sure you understand why and that it doesn't boil down to xenophobia, history or sentiment.

[Sean]

Whether the uk stay in or opt out is nothing to do with me, but I do think that your argument contradicts itself slightly here - you say that money isn't the most important thing but at the same time you are advocating investing in your own people.........investment requires money.
Also I will say that if you honestly believe that money isn't the most important thing then you clearly haven't been affected by the recent downturn in the economy - I have seen honest hardworking people who have spent years in employment paying taxes to the country, suddenly lose their jobs and struggling to survive These people have families and homes that they are financially committed to (via mortgages) and are really struggling to keep their homes. You should try telling these people that money isn't the most important thing

I have grown up in poverty and have been unemployed for ten years, until I fluked getting an apprenticeship last summer. I have no hope of being able to buy a home, or finance having a family of my own. My only hope is to save as much as I can for retirement before I croak.

I hope that if Britain leaves the EU, it will force employers in Britain to use British workers rather than outsourcing everything just because they can.