The 'I told you so' EU referendum - Officially the Worst Thread Ever

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Remain or leave

Remain
28
35%
Leave
52
65%
 
Total votes: 80

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DB10GOONER
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Re: The 'I told you so' EU referendum - Officially the Worst Thread Ever

Postby DB10GOONER » Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:11 pm

Jaysus. The mother of parliaments? The mother of abortions! Fucks sake lads have a word. :oops:

:wink:

A11M11
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Re: The 'I told you so' EU referendum - Officially the Worst Thread Ever

Postby A11M11 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:20 pm

What people like A11M11 peddle are ideological theories most of which aren’t true.

'Europe' alienates us all - as foretold 40 years ago
With chilling candour, a paper from a senior government official laid out the difficulties that Britain would face in the proposed Common Market.
The Greek disturbances and national strike are the most vehement expressions so far of Europeans’ political disaffection - 'Europe’ alienates us all – as foretold 40 years ago
The Greek disturbances and national strike are the most vehement expressions so far of Europeans’ political disaffection

By Christopher Booker

7:00PM BST 28 Apr 2012

All across Europe, from riots in Greece to those protest votes for Marine Le Pen and George Galloway, we see signs of how alienated people now feel from the “political class” which rules over our lives, out of touch with the rest of us, without meaningful opposition, no longer responsive to any democratic control. I am reminded of a document I discovered in the National Archives at Kew in January 2002, when sifting through papers released under the 30-year rule relating to Britain’s negotiations to join the Common Market. It was a confidential 1971 memorandum, clearly written by a senior Foreign Office official, headed “Sovereignty and the Community”.

With chilling candour, this paper (from FCO folder 30/1048) predicted that it would take 30 years for the British people to wake up to the real nature of the European project that Edward Heath was about to take them into, by which time it would be too late for them to leave. Its author made clear that the Community was headed for economic, monetary and fiscal union, with a common foreign and defence policy, which would constitute the greatest surrender of Britain’s national sovereignty in history. Since “Community law” would take precedence over our own, ever more power would pass to this new bureaucratic system centred in Brussels – and, as the role of Parliament diminished, this would lead to a “popular feeling of alienation from government”.

It would therefore become the duty of politicians “not to exacerbate public concern by attributing unpopular measures… to the remote and unmanageable workings of the Community”. Politicians of all parties should be careful to conceal the fact that controversial laws originated in Brussels. By this means it might be possible to preserve the illusion that the British government was still sovereign, “for this century at least” – by which time it would no longer be possible for us to leave.

In other words, here was a civil servant advising that our politicians should connive in concealing what Heath was letting us in for, not least in hiding the extent to which Britain would no longer be a democratic country but one essentially governed by unelected and unaccountable officials.

One way to create an illusion that this system was still democratic, this anonymous mandarin suggested, would be to give people the chance to vote for new representatives at European, regional and local levels. A few years later, we saw the creation of an elected European Parliament – as we see today a craze for introducing elected mayors, as meaningless local figureheads.


You seem to be happy to believe a leaked Yellowhammer document from a civil servant with a possible axe to grind or
this genuine one from the national archives .

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DB10GOONER
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Re: The 'I told you so' EU referendum - Officially the Worst Thread Ever

Postby DB10GOONER » Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:53 pm

I'm thinking you watch too many of those conspiracy documentaries on Discovery channel buddy. :D :wink:

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Re: The 'I told you so' EU referendum - Officially the Worst Thread Ever

Postby nut flush gooner » Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:11 pm

What people like A11M11 peddle are ideological theories most of which aren’t true.

'Europe' alienates us all - as foretold 40 years ago
With chilling candour, a paper from a senior government official laid out the difficulties that Britain would face in the proposed Common Market.
The Greek disturbances and national strike are the most vehement expressions so far of Europeans’ political disaffection - 'Europe’ alienates us all – as foretold 40 years ago
The Greek disturbances and national strike are the most vehement expressions so far of Europeans’ political disaffection

By Christopher Booker

7:00PM BST 28 Apr 2012

All across Europe, from riots in Greece to those protest votes for Marine Le Pen and George Galloway, we see signs of how alienated people now feel from the “political class” which rules over our lives, out of touch with the rest of us, without meaningful opposition, no longer responsive to any democratic control. I am reminded of a document I discovered in the National Archives at Kew in January 2002, when sifting through papers released under the 30-year rule relating to Britain’s negotiations to join the Common Market. It was a confidential 1971 memorandum, clearly written by a senior Foreign Office official, headed “Sovereignty and the Community”.

With chilling candour, this paper (from FCO folder 30/1048) predicted that it would take 30 years for the British people to wake up to the real nature of the European project that Edward Heath was about to take them into, by which time it would be too late for them to leave. Its author made clear that the Community was headed for economic, monetary and fiscal union, with a common foreign and defence policy, which would constitute the greatest surrender of Britain’s national sovereignty in history. Since “Community law” would take precedence over our own, ever more power would pass to this new bureaucratic system centred in Brussels – and, as the role of Parliament diminished, this would lead to a “popular feeling of alienation from government”.

It would therefore become the duty of politicians “not to exacerbate public concern by attributing unpopular measures… to the remote and unmanageable workings of the Community”. Politicians of all parties should be careful to conceal the fact that controversial laws originated in Brussels. By this means it might be possible to preserve the illusion that the British government was still sovereign, “for this century at least” – by which time it would no longer be possible for us to leave.

In other words, here was a civil servant advising that our politicians should connive in concealing what Heath was letting us in for, not least in hiding the extent to which Britain would no longer be a democratic country but one essentially governed by unelected and unaccountable officials.

One way to create an illusion that this system was still democratic, this anonymous mandarin suggested, would be to give people the chance to vote for new representatives at European, regional and local levels. A few years later, we saw the creation of an elected European Parliament – as we see today a craze for introducing elected mayors, as meaningless local figureheads.


You seem to be happy to believe a leaked Yellowhammer document from a civil servant with a possible axe to grind or
this genuine one from the national archives .
It wasn't a civil servant who rang Rees Mogg up it was a Doctor who was involved in producing the report.

Rees Mogg accused him of scaremongering.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GeZGDaU5Uk

I want you to watch that video above. Listen to what this woman is saying carefully, whether she is a remainer or leaver is irrelevant. She is a wealth creator and a tax payer. She is specifically saying that investment in her business cannot take place in the UK if we have a hard Brexit. And that in lay mans terms means she has to hire workers elsewhere to conduct business in the EU. Multiply this many times over for businesses in all sectors across our economy. As usual, Rees Mogg papers over the facts in his replies.

I am sorry this is not wishy-washy ideologies that you have cut and pasted as above, this is real world stuff.

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Herd
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Re: The 'I told you so' EU referendum - Officially the Worst Thread Ever

Postby Herd » Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:55 am

What people like A11M11 peddle are ideological theories most of which aren’t true.

'Europe' alienates us all - as foretold 40 years ago
With chilling candour, a paper from a senior government official laid out the difficulties that Britain would face in the proposed Common Market.
The Greek disturbances and national strike are the most vehement expressions so far of Europeans’ political disaffection - 'Europe’ alienates us all – as foretold 40 years ago
The Greek disturbances and national strike are the most vehement expressions so far of Europeans’ political disaffection

By Christopher Booker

7:00PM BST 28 Apr 2012

All across Europe, from riots in Greece to those protest votes for Marine Le Pen and George Galloway, we see signs of how alienated people now feel from the “political class” which rules over our lives, out of touch with the rest of us, without meaningful opposition, no longer responsive to any democratic control. I am reminded of a document I discovered in the National Archives at Kew in January 2002, when sifting through papers released under the 30-year rule relating to Britain’s negotiations to join the Common Market. It was a confidential 1971 memorandum, clearly written by a senior Foreign Office official, headed “Sovereignty and the Community”.

With chilling candour, this paper (from FCO folder 30/1048) predicted that it would take 30 years for the British people to wake up to the real nature of the European project that Edward Heath was about to take them into, by which time it would be too late for them to leave. Its author made clear that the Community was headed for economic, monetary and fiscal union, with a common foreign and defence policy, which would constitute the greatest surrender of Britain’s national sovereignty in history. Since “Community law” would take precedence over our own, ever more power would pass to this new bureaucratic system centred in Brussels – and, as the role of Parliament diminished, this would lead to a “popular feeling of alienation from government”.

It would therefore become the duty of politicians “not to exacerbate public concern by attributing unpopular measures… to the remote and unmanageable workings of the Community”. Politicians of all parties should be careful to conceal the fact that controversial laws originated in Brussels. By this means it might be possible to preserve the illusion that the British government was still sovereign, “for this century at least” – by which time it would no longer be possible for us to leave.

In other words, here was a civil servant advising that our politicians should connive in concealing what Heath was letting us in for, not least in hiding the extent to which Britain would no longer be a democratic country but one essentially governed by unelected and unaccountable officials.

One way to create an illusion that this system was still democratic, this anonymous mandarin suggested, would be to give people the chance to vote for new representatives at European, regional and local levels. A few years later, we saw the creation of an elected European Parliament – as we see today a craze for introducing elected mayors, as meaningless local figureheads.


You seem to be happy to believe a leaked Yellowhammer document from a civil servant with a possible axe to grind or
this genuine one from the national archives .
It wasn't a civil servant who rang Rees Mogg up it was a Doctor who was involved in producing the report.

Rees Mogg accused him of scaremongering.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GeZGDaU5Uk

I want you to watch that video above. Listen to what this woman is saying carefully, whether she is a remainer or leaver is irrelevant. She is a wealth creator and a tax payer. She is specifically saying that investment in her business cannot take place in the UK if we have a hard Brexit. And that in lay mans terms means she has to hire workers elsewhere to conduct business in the EU. Multiply this many times over for businesses in all sectors across our economy. As usual, Rees Mogg papers over the facts in his replies.

I am sorry this is not wishy-washy ideologies that you have cut and pasted as above, this is real world stuff.
Jesus flush you use question time the most pro remain and rigged program in history to make your point.
When will you learn that you can make anything sound like fact if you dress it up right.

nut flush gooner
Posts: 2869
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:23 am

Re: The 'I told you so' EU referendum - Officially the Worst Thread Ever

Postby nut flush gooner » Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:27 pm

What people like A11M11 peddle are ideological theories most of which aren’t true.

'Europe' alienates us all - as foretold 40 years ago
With chilling candour, a paper from a senior government official laid out the difficulties that Britain would face in the proposed Common Market.
The Greek disturbances and national strike are the most vehement expressions so far of Europeans’ political disaffection - 'Europe’ alienates us all – as foretold 40 years ago
The Greek disturbances and national strike are the most vehement expressions so far of Europeans’ political disaffection

By Christopher Booker

7:00PM BST 28 Apr 2012

All across Europe, from riots in Greece to those protest votes for Marine Le Pen and George Galloway, we see signs of how alienated people now feel from the “political class” which rules over our lives, out of touch with the rest of us, without meaningful opposition, no longer responsive to any democratic control. I am reminded of a document I discovered in the National Archives at Kew in January 2002, when sifting through papers released under the 30-year rule relating to Britain’s negotiations to join the Common Market. It was a confidential 1971 memorandum, clearly written by a senior Foreign Office official, headed “Sovereignty and the Community”.

With chilling candour, this paper (from FCO folder 30/1048) predicted that it would take 30 years for the British people to wake up to the real nature of the European project that Edward Heath was about to take them into, by which time it would be too late for them to leave. Its author made clear that the Community was headed for economic, monetary and fiscal union, with a common foreign and defence policy, which would constitute the greatest surrender of Britain’s national sovereignty in history. Since “Community law” would take precedence over our own, ever more power would pass to this new bureaucratic system centred in Brussels – and, as the role of Parliament diminished, this would lead to a “popular feeling of alienation from government”.

It would therefore become the duty of politicians “not to exacerbate public concern by attributing unpopular measures… to the remote and unmanageable workings of the Community”. Politicians of all parties should be careful to conceal the fact that controversial laws originated in Brussels. By this means it might be possible to preserve the illusion that the British government was still sovereign, “for this century at least” – by which time it would no longer be possible for us to leave.

In other words, here was a civil servant advising that our politicians should connive in concealing what Heath was letting us in for, not least in hiding the extent to which Britain would no longer be a democratic country but one essentially governed by unelected and unaccountable officials.

One way to create an illusion that this system was still democratic, this anonymous mandarin suggested, would be to give people the chance to vote for new representatives at European, regional and local levels. A few years later, we saw the creation of an elected European Parliament – as we see today a craze for introducing elected mayors, as meaningless local figureheads.


You seem to be happy to believe a leaked Yellowhammer document from a civil servant with a possible axe to grind or
this genuine one from the national archives .
It wasn't a civil servant who rang Rees Mogg up it was a Doctor who was involved in producing the report.

Rees Mogg accused him of scaremongering.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GeZGDaU5Uk

I want you to watch that video above. Listen to what this woman is saying carefully, whether she is a remainer or leaver is irrelevant. She is a wealth creator and a tax payer. She is specifically saying that investment in her business cannot take place in the UK if we have a hard Brexit. And that in lay mans terms means she has to hire workers elsewhere to conduct business in the EU. Multiply this many times over for businesses in all sectors across our economy. As usual, Rees Mogg papers over the facts in his replies.

I am sorry this is not wishy-washy ideologies that you have cut and pasted as above, this is real world stuff.
Jesus flush you use question time the most pro remain and rigged program in history to make your point.
When will you learn that you can make anything sound like fact if you dress it up right.
Question time has as many remainers as leavers in the audience. As I said to A11M11 ignore that, listen to what the businesswoman is saying with honesty and sincerity. If you don't get that you never will get what we are facing.

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Herd
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Re: The 'I told you so' EU referendum - Officially the Worst Thread Ever

Postby Herd » Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:57 pm

Dog dog and thrice Doh. How do you know if she was genuine answer you don't . She's most likely a plant but you like the gullible public take these people at face value. Question time had been relentlessly plugging remain . Look it again and what she actually said ,shes avoiding doing biz in the uk because of brexit ???? Brexit hasn't happened ffs . It's a crock which gullible people like you swallow whole every time

A11M11
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Re: The 'I told you so' EU referendum - Officially the Worst Thread Ever

Postby A11M11 » Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:07 pm

Question time with a plant in the audience getting to be chosen to ask a question especially when Rees Mogg was on the panel . Whatever next ?
As for the good Doctor, despite the assurances from both sides of channel that there will be ways to continue medical supplies, he deliberately went for the sensational citing body bags .He stuck his hat in the ring and did not appreciate the answer.
Now conspiracy theories! What I posted is based on fact . It’s based on a quote ,accept it or not the EU will not stop until they control everything

A11M11
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Re: The 'I told you so' EU referendum - Officially the Worst Thread Ever

Postby A11M11 » Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:12 am

Actually I often watch question time , I open a nice bottle of Red , a Tempranillo or Merlot and try to fathom the workings of the minds of the brainwashed remainers .
I noticed that after this weeks plant read his diatribe about not knowing the facts when Ian Dale tried to reply he was shut down immediately in case he destroyed the argument.
It is said that a dog learns more sniffing another dog than humans do watching the BBC.

Gunner Rob
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Re: The 'I told you so' EU referendum - Officially the Worst Thread Ever

Postby Gunner Rob » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:03 am

Actually I often watch question time , I open a nice bottle of Red , a Tempranillo or Merlot and try to fathom the workings of the minds of the brainwashed remainers .
I noticed that after this weeks plant read his diatribe about not knowing the facts when Ian Dale tried to reply he was shut down immediately in case he destroyed the argument.
It is said that a dog learns more sniffing another dog than humans do watching the BBC.
I don't suppose you would ever consider yourself to be brainwashed ?

A11M11
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Re: The 'I told you so' EU referendum - Officially the Worst Thread Ever

Postby A11M11 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:30 am

Morning Rob ,
NO!
My position on the situation has been borne out of years of personal experience . Initially I saw the merits of a European free trade area but realised it was the carrot hiding the stick of unified Europe behind it.
Political union is not a good idea , it creates an Empire and as history has shown Empires come tumbling down as the people get fed up with the corruption.
That is one good thing that has come out of this whole debacle , the people have realised just how inept and corrupt our own political system is .
Brexit is an opportunity to put the brakes on this whole one world objective and to make people more accountable for their actions . Whenever you get a large political block you always get an elite group running it ( I got a typo there it came out as ruining it ) prophetic Eh ?
London is a financial powerhouse , it calls the shots where other regions of the country go backwards . I would not want to curtail it's progress because it's important . You might argue that you can't live without money . I would argue that you should not depend on other countries for your water , food and energy .
I travel the country a lot , when I visit London I see a place which does not relate to many other parts , but these parts are just as important , they need their own localised voice and going further away is not the answer.

Gunner Rob
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Re: The 'I told you so' EU referendum - Officially the Worst Thread Ever

Postby Gunner Rob » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:55 am

Morning Rob ,
NO!
My position on the situation has been borne out of years of personal experience . Initially I saw the merits of a European free trade area but realised it was the carrot hiding the stick of unified Europe behind it.
Political union is not a good idea , it creates an Empire and as history has shown Empires come tumbling down as the people get fed up with the corruption.
That is one good thing that has come out of this whole debacle , the people have realised just how inept and corrupt our own political system is .
Brexit is an opportunity to put the brakes on this whole one world objective and to make people more accountable for their actions . Whenever you get a large political block you always get an elite group running it ( I got a typo there it came out as ruining it ) prophetic Eh ?
London is a financial powerhouse , it calls the shots where other regions of the country go backwards . I would not want to curtail it's progress because it's important . You might argue that you can't live without money . I would argue that you should not depend on other countries for your water , food and energy .
I travel the country a lot , when I visit London I see a place which does not relate to many other parts , but these parts are just as important , they need their own localised voice and going further away is not the answer.
so basically you want to get out of the EU because you think London has become too powerful ?
well if Brexit happens, I am sure that London will be fine (increased tourism for example due to the collapsing pound)

however the fascists now in charge in the UK care much less for the rest of the UK than the EU.
Some of the poorer regions in the UK have received substantial EU funding over the years, they will get nothing from this Tory government in the future.

I do rather fear that you have been brainwashed into thinking that the EU are the bad guys - ever stopped to consider how the UK government is currently acting ? funny how the other 27 EU countries are all fine working together.

A11M11
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Re: The 'I told you so' EU referendum - Officially the Worst Thread Ever

Postby A11M11 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:56 am

Strangely Rob if you actually read what I wrote you would see that I appreciate London and what it does .

" I would not want to curtail it's progress because it's important "

As for E.U giving grants you should ask yourself where they get the money to be so bountiful.

" they need their own localised voice and going further away is not the answer. "

Is that not a call to change the way things are run , to change the way capital expenditure is allocated ?

And they are not fascists , you use the word far too easily , obviously you have never seen the results of Moseley , Franco and Salizar and the way they treated their people . At least here we can have these conversations . In Franco's Spain we would have disappeared long ago just ask Puigdemont and Junqueras .

Gunner Rob
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Re: The 'I told you so' EU referendum - Officially the Worst Thread Ever

Postby Gunner Rob » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:18 am

After taking over the Reichstag with the Enabling Act of 1933, Adolf Hitler's first acts were to remove all political opponents, surrounding himself with only 'yes men', and Prorogue parliament, thus establishing his dictatorship.

Boris Johnson will Prorogue Parliament in the UK this evening, he removed his political opponents last week.
This is now getting very serious.

A11M11
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Re: The 'I told you so' EU referendum - Officially the Worst Thread Ever

Postby A11M11 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:01 pm

And yet it was only this January that the E.U passed legistation to silence what they described as fake news on social media.
I don't think our public libraries are in danger of going up in flames quite yet. Unless of course someone wants to build a few houses on the site.


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