It's all a load of Cannonballs in here! This is the virtual Arsenal pub where you can chat about anything except football. Be warned though, like any pub, the content may not always be suitable for everyone.
QuartzGooner wrote:But Israeli forces are not operating in Gaza on a permanent basis, only on anti terrorist missions.
Gaza was handed over to the Palestinians two years ago.
If you want to know about heartless repression, read up on the Egyptian rule of Gaza prior to 1967.
The West Bank?
What country is it?
Jordan gave it up in 1980.
They do not want it.
Who is Israel occupying it from?
Look you obviously have your opinions and your entitled to them. If you wish to believe the Palestinians and Palestine are mythical entities like the unicorn that don't really exist then go ahead.
The history of the region is very well documented, if you want answers to the "questions" you pose then I recommend you consult your local library, because I'm certainly not going to waste my time stating the obvious to the willfully ignorant. I consider this issue too important to be discussed in such a flippant manner with someone who's view are so obviously entrenched and impervious to rational argument.
Caped..you have extrapolated my supposed views from my previous post but not been privy to my full views on this subject on the 9/11 post last month.
I do not regard the Palestinians as a mythical entity, and you are bang out of order to call me ignorant when I have spent a lot of time involved in this subject.
You have not provided a single shred of evidence for your views that my argument is irrational, you have not argued your case.
Cus Geezer does not agree with me on the Israel/Arab conflict, but at least he provides what he regards as evidence and a view of history that relates to events.
I do not agree with his hardline Socialist (perhaps even Marxist?) interpretation of history, but at least it provides a framework for discussion.
What IS the case is that Palestinian national identity is a much more recent phenomenon than the millennia old Jewish national identity (which is eternally immersed in the land of Israel).
There is obviously a need for a solution to the situation of Palestinians in refugee camps in Lebanon, Jordan and Syria, and the populations in Gaza and the West Bank.
There is a country called Jordan. It, like Israel, was carved out of the British Mandate of Trans Jordan.
23% of the land was to the West of the Jordan River, the rest to the East of it.
That 77% of the land was given to the Palestinians.
The land West of the river was split between Jews and Arabs.
So the Jews were given just a half, of a quarter, of our biblical homeland!
Yet everyone seems to have a problem with us having that tiny sliver of land.
A land with no oil, that was up until 80 years ago covered in malarial ridden swamps!
IF THEY HAVE TO THEY WILL KICK ANYONES ASS IF THEY DONT GET THEIR FEET ON THE GROUND. AND I SUPPORT THAT.
Sadly their own asses haven't remained intact either.
In justice I trust, in America I hold deep suspicion.
Thats your view of USA, but i'm ready to day for this stars and stripes, any time, any day, and anywhere. For me they are peace keapers, and the price for peace is high your picture explains a lot.
Crossing oceans to start a war with a nation that has never attacked them or threatened to - you have a funny definition of the word 'peace keeper'.
And that picture is not the price ofr peace - it's the price of war mongering and a failed neo-colonial venture.
QuartzGooner wrote:Caped..you have extrapolated my supposed views from my previous post but not been privy to my full views on this subject on the 9/11 post last month.
I do not regard the Palestinians as a mythical entity, and you are bang out of order to call me ignorant when I have spent a lot of time involved in this subject.
You have not provided a single shred of evidence for your views that my argument is irrational, you have not argued your case.
Cus Geezer does not agree with me on the Israel/Arab conflict, but at least he provides what he regards as evidence and a view of history that relates to events.
I do not agree with his hardline Socialist (perhaps even Marxist?) interpretation of history, but at least it provides a framework for discussion.
What IS the case is that Palestinian national identity is a much more recent phenomenon than the millennia old Jewish national identity (which is eternally immersed in the land of Israel).
There is obviously a need for a solution to the situation of Palestinians in refugee camps in Lebanon, Jordan and Syria, and the populations in Gaza and the West Bank.
There is a country called Jordan. It, like Israel, was carved out of the British Mandate of Trans Jordan.
23% of the land was to the West of the Jordan River, the rest to the East of it.
That 77% of the land was given to the Palestinians.
The land West of the river was split between Jews and Arabs.
So the Jews were given just a half, of a quarter, of our biblical homeland!
Yet everyone seems to have a problem with us having that tiny sliver of land.
A land with no oil, that was up until 80 years ago covered in malarial ridden swamps!
I'm aware of your views, I've heard them expressed many times before.
I disagree with your conclusion that a more ancient cultural link to a region trumps entirely the rights of a people who have lived there for a mere 1,300 years. We are unlikely to persuade each other to change our minds so instead perhaps we can end this conversation with some dignity.
QuartzGooner wrote:Caped..you have extrapolated my supposed views from my previous post but not been privy to my full views on this subject on the 9/11 post last month.
I do not regard the Palestinians as a mythical entity, and you are bang out of order to call me ignorant when I have spent a lot of time involved in this subject.
You have not provided a single shred of evidence for your views that my argument is irrational, you have not argued your case.
Cus Geezer does not agree with me on the Israel/Arab conflict, but at least he provides what he regards as evidence and a view of history that relates to events.
I do not agree with his hardline Socialist (perhaps even Marxist?) interpretation of history, but at least it provides a framework for discussion.
What IS the case is that Palestinian national identity is a much more recent phenomenon than the millennia old Jewish national identity (which is eternally immersed in the land of Israel).
There is obviously a need for a solution to the situation of Palestinians in refugee camps in Lebanon, Jordan and Syria, and the populations in Gaza and the West Bank.
There is a country called Jordan. It, like Israel, was carved out of the British Mandate of Trans Jordan.
23% of the land was to the West of the Jordan River, the rest to the East of it.
That 77% of the land was given to the Palestinians.
The land West of the river was split between Jews and Arabs.
So the Jews were given just a half, of a quarter, of our biblical homeland!
Yet everyone seems to have a problem with us having that tiny sliver of land.
A land with no oil, that was up until 80 years ago covered in malarial ridden swamps!
I'm aware of your views, I've heard them expressed many times before.
I disagree with your conclusion that a more ancient cultural link to a region trumps entirely the rights of a people who have lived there for a mere 1,300 years. We are unlikely to persuade each other to change our minds so instead perhaps we can end this conversation with some dignity.
It can end with dignity, but the notion that the Palestinians have been forcibly dispossesed of their land is not one I agree with, nor is the notion that they have had their rights "trumped".
QuartzGooner wrote:Caped..you have extrapolated my supposed views from my previous post but not been privy to my full views on this subject on the 9/11 post last month.
I do not regard the Palestinians as a mythical entity, and you are bang out of order to call me ignorant when I have spent a lot of time involved in this subject.
You have not provided a single shred of evidence for your views that my argument is irrational, you have not argued your case.
Cus Geezer does not agree with me on the Israel/Arab conflict, but at least he provides what he regards as evidence and a view of history that relates to events.
I do not agree with his hardline Socialist (perhaps even Marxist?) interpretation of history, but at least it provides a framework for discussion.
What IS the case is that Palestinian national identity is a much more recent phenomenon than the millennia old Jewish national identity (which is eternally immersed in the land of Israel).
There is obviously a need for a solution to the situation of Palestinians in refugee camps in Lebanon, Jordan and Syria, and the populations in Gaza and the West Bank.
There is a country called Jordan. It, like Israel, was carved out of the British Mandate of Trans Jordan.
23% of the land was to the West of the Jordan River, the rest to the East of it.
That 77% of the land was given to the Palestinians.
The land West of the river was split between Jews and Arabs.
So the Jews were given just a half, of a quarter, of our biblical homeland!
Yet everyone seems to have a problem with us having that tiny sliver of land.
A land with no oil, that was up until 80 years ago covered in malarial ridden swamps!
I'm aware of your views, I've heard them expressed many times before.
I disagree with your conclusion that a more ancient cultural link to a region trumps entirely the rights of a people who have lived there for a mere 1,300 years. We are unlikely to persuade each other to change our minds so instead perhaps we can end this conversation with some dignity.
It can end with dignity, but the notion that the Palestinians have been forcibly dispossesed of their land is not one I agree with, nor is the notion that they have had their rights "trumped".
QuartzGooner wrote:Caped..you have extrapolated my supposed views from my previous post but not been privy to my full views on this subject on the 9/11 post last month.
I do not regard the Palestinians as a mythical entity, and you are bang out of order to call me ignorant when I have spent a lot of time involved in this subject.
You have not provided a single shred of evidence for your views that my argument is irrational, you have not argued your case.
Cus Geezer does not agree with me on the Israel/Arab conflict, but at least he provides what he regards as evidence and a view of history that relates to events.
I do not agree with his hardline Socialist (perhaps even Marxist?) interpretation of history, but at least it provides a framework for discussion.
What IS the case is that Palestinian national identity is a much more recent phenomenon than the millennia old Jewish national identity (which is eternally immersed in the land of Israel).
There is obviously a need for a solution to the situation of Palestinians in refugee camps in Lebanon, Jordan and Syria, and the populations in Gaza and the West Bank.
There is a country called Jordan. It, like Israel, was carved out of the British Mandate of Trans Jordan.
23% of the land was to the West of the Jordan River, the rest to the East of it.
That 77% of the land was given to the Palestinians.
The land West of the river was split between Jews and Arabs.
So the Jews were given just a half, of a quarter, of our biblical homeland!
Yet everyone seems to have a problem with us having that tiny sliver of land.
A land with no oil, that was up until 80 years ago covered in malarial ridden swamps!
I'm aware of your views, I've heard them expressed many times before.
I disagree with your conclusion that a more ancient cultural link to a region trumps entirely the rights of a people who have lived there for a mere 1,300 years. We are unlikely to persuade each other to change our minds so instead perhaps we can end this conversation with some dignity.
It can end with dignity, but the notion that the Palestinians have been forcibly dispossesed of their land is not one I agree with.
You've made that clear, once again such events are well documented within and outside Israel by everyone from Haganah, Irgun and Lehi veterans, to British forces stationed there at the time, to the new Israeli historians like Avi Shalim and Benny Morris but I'm sure we're civilised enough to agree to diasgree.
KAQAK wrote: IRAQ: SADAM WAS THE LEADER OF AN TERRORIST REGIME WHO TERRORIZED SINCE YEARS OTHER NATIONS WITHIN IRAQ EVEN MADE CHEMICAL EXPERIMENTS IN THEM
Yes KAQAK - Saddam did this with AMERICA'S FULL CONSENT!!!!!!!
Between 1978 and 1990 Iraq under Saddam and the USA were STAUNCH ALLIES!!!!
This was when Saddam carried out the vast majority of the atrocities in Iraq.
Other instances - the CIA overthrowing a democratically elected left leaning government in Chile in September 11th 1973 and installing staunch montarist General Pinochet - one of the worst human rights abusers of the 20th Century
Overthrowing a democratically elected secular government in Iran in 1953 who wished to nationalise it's own oil fields at the expense of Western oil companies and installing the despotic Shah and the SAVAK secret police - serious human rights abusers. Are you going to wake up to the fact that just because Kosovo did OK out of US intervention, the US are not altruistic upholders of freedom and human rights?
Ask yourself why the bulldozer is demolishing a home?
For a game?
No.
Likelehood is it was the home of a terrorist's family, or used by Hamas as a hideout. It was in Nablus, a hotbed of terrorism and a cradle of suicide bombers.
Rachel Corrie was misguided. She felt strongly about something but went about her protests in a reckless way.
The organisation she was allied to has been charged with aiding terrorist activity...it is not some neutral "peace and love" movement.
It is not advisable to go into Gaza in the way she did. It is a dangerous place.
If you feel strongly about the Iraq war, would you go into the front line unarmed waving "peace flags"??
