Arsene Wenger - What Stage Are You At?

[Steve_I]

Would be interested to know just how much longer you think he needs to 'turn it around' and how many more years without success would it take for you to come to the conclusion 'Wenger's time had expired'?

I'm afraid I don't know the answer to that question. If I believed, however, that it was all his fault then, no doubt, my 'stage' would have possibly been 4.

[augie]

Would be interested to know just how much longer you think he needs to 'turn it around' and how many more years without success would it take for you to come to the conclusion 'Wenger's time had expired'?

I'm afraid I don't know the answer to that question. If I believed, however, that it was all his fault then, no doubt, my 'stage' would have possibly been 4.

Doesnt have to be all his fault but he is the one that signs the players, he is the one that picks the team, he is the one that decides the tactics, he is the one who recommends new contracts for the shite players and he is the one that continually fails to motivate the players when they are going out to represent OUR CLUB - maybe it would be easier for you to blame the board for all that but that is just a bullshit opt out and you know it

[mikeyb772001]

I hate the man with every fibre of my body. He is fraud, a wanker and a liar

A cretin that should leave our club at all costs

[Bradywasking]

I went for 4. I want change of manager at my club and a change of ambitions, but I cannot forget what Wenger done for Arsenal and for football. It would have been better that he be remembered for his contribution pre-2008 .That would only be possible if the man himself realises his time is up and he should move on. That would be my wish, but it's not what I believe will happen.
I think that most Arsenal fans would still like the man to go with dignity, but he has to go or the slide will become unstoppable. Not of Newcastle proportions but maybe of Liverpool proportions.
I cannot understand the pundits ,like ESPN on Saturday, going out of their way to support him. When he was successful and bringing a new breed of football and fitness to England the media hated him . He was ridiculed by the media as much as praised. The biggest sign of how much his stock and Arsenal's stock has fallen in recent years is the fact that the media and Fergie pity him rather than hate him.

[northbank123]

There's obviously always been a lot of respect from Ferguson towards him and now they're not in direct rivalry Ferguson can express that. Plus, as he's worked 30+ years in professional management then Ferguson is one of the few people on the planet qualified to comment on Wenger, he knows if he keeps telling him how well he's doing with the resources then Wenger's ego will continue to be contented by 4th place!

[augie]

I went for 4. I want change of manager at my club and a change of ambitions, but I cannot forget what Wenger done for Arsenal and for football. It would have been better that he be remembered for his contribution pre-2008 .That would only be possible if the man himself realises his time is up and he should move on. That would be my wish, but it's not what I believe will happen.
I think that most Arsenal fans would still like the man to go with dignity, but he has to go or the slide will become unstoppable. Not of Newcastle proportions but maybe of Liverpool proportions.
I cannot understand the pundits ,like ESPN on Saturday, going out of their way to support him. When he was successful and bringing a new breed of football and fitness to England the media hated him . He was ridiculed by the media as much as praised. The biggest sign of how much his stock and Arsenal's stock has fallen in recent years is the fact that the media and Fergie pity him rather than hate him.

That is, I suspect, how most fans feel but the simple fact is that the guy has absolutely no intention of stepping down.....ever Is it cos he has total belief in his ability to turn things around cos if so he is totally deluded. Is it cos he knows that he wont be given as much free reign elsewhere and would not be able to work with anyone unless given total control ? Maybe it is because he is afraid that he will never have the success elsewhere that he has enjoyed here in the past ? That notion isnt as far out as you might think - he knows that past successes has bought him god like status with many Gooners which has shielded him from the anger that he would face if he was performing like this at a different club That would bring much pressure to succeed and we are all too aware that the guy doesnt like to be questioned and would never want to be labelled a failure

[LeftfootlegendGooner]

2.......Just because I think it's too one sided and I don't like bullies

I all seriousness though if people on here think that someone like Moyes is gonna take us to the next level are imo wanting someone who they enjoy listening to in post match interviews rather than his managerial/coaching skills, I mean what european experience does he have.

We can change the manager every year but with the current board and owner I believe nothing will change regards transfer fees.

[LeftfootlegendGooner]

I went for 4. I want change of manager at my club and a change of ambitions, but I cannot forget what Wenger done for Arsenal and for football. It would have been better that he be remembered for his contribution pre-2008 .That would only be possible if the man himself realises his time is up and he should move on. That would be my wish, but it's not what I believe will happen.
I think that most Arsenal fans would still like the man to go with dignity, but he has to go or the slide will become unstoppable. Not of Newcastle proportions but maybe of Liverpool proportions.
I cannot understand the pundits ,like ESPN on Saturday, going out of their way to support him. When he was successful and bringing a new breed of football and fitness to England the media hated him . He was ridiculed by the media as much as praised. The biggest sign of how much his stock and Arsenal's stock has fallen in recent years is the fact that the media and Fergie pity him rather than hate him.

That is, I suspect, how most fans feel but the simple fact is that the guy has absolutely no intention of stepping down.....ever Is it cos he has total belief in his ability to turn things around cos if so he is totally deluded. Is it cos he knows that he wont be given as much free reign elsewhere and would not be able to work with anyone unless given total control ? Maybe it is because he is afraid that he will never have the success elsewhere that he has enjoyed here in the past ? That notion isnt as far out as you might think - he knows that past successes has bought him god like status with many Gooners which has shielded him from the anger that he would face if he was performing like this at a different club That would bring much pressure to succeed and we are all too aware that the guy doesnt like to be questioned and would never want to be labelled a failure

I really can't agree with that mate, he is a total pro and all this total control thing is just lazy made up in a playground bollox to further slap the bloke about the face

If we are to criticise him lets do it on his results and performances rather than "alleged" magalomaniac characteristics.

Of course he is in charge......cos he is in charge

Ego.......every player and manager in the top flight has an ego, shit most players and managers on hackney marshes has got an ego

[I still Exiled-Gooner]

After 2007/08 i was a 4 as he didn't get the 2/3 players needed to take us that next step and win the P/L that the whole footballing fraternity was yelling about but instead we got Silvestre !!!!! and so his legacy would be untarnished BUT.......for the last 3 seasons,like Reb,he's has got to go.

After that pile of crap against Villa and blatant disrespect he shows fans who question him,combined with the constant pathetic excuses for continuing failure he is quickly erasing the great legacy he created from 1997-2006.

[flash gunner]

In years to come Wenger im sure will be remembered highly by Arsenal fans but its gone too far for me now i am beginning to hate him now and i cant imagine anything changing my mind over time

[spendsum4uckingmoney]

I'm at the stage now where I just don't care. In 2005 I was absolutely depressed at how bad we were in the league (finished 4th last day of the season when spurs only had to win to overtake us). Now I just think its an innevitability. Last season I didn't feel anything. A part of me thuoght 'why am I not so angry/depressed by this season?' It's because it just felt like an innevitability. It's got to the point where I can hardly be bothered watching highlights of Arsenal games. We play boring football. There isn't a single world class player in the team. The owners make me feel sick as the club is just a cash cow for them. In short: I don't care anymore.

Wenger, as much as I respect what he did early millenium and to a degree keeping us in the top 4, he's lost the plot and IMO the dressing room. The players he buys are absolutely average at best.

Gervinho-average headless chicken who was hardly an unknown or cheap
Giroud- same
Podolski- hardly an unknown and wasn't exactly cheap (11m + 100k a week)
Santos- awful
Rosicky- awful
Ramsey- average
Walcott- hasn't progressed enough
Arshavin-hardly cheap or an unknown- he was like the man of euro 2008
Santi-same


This is un fucking believeable. The Wenger of early millenium was signing world classplayers and on the cheap. I know the game has gotten more expensive but bargains still exist.

I hate what this club has become. There is no fucking ambition whatsoever and Wenger has to take blame. If Diaby was English he would of been out of this club well before now but as usual we go in light. The 08 season was just puzzling not replacing Flaimini, Gilberto or Diarra. Last season was simply negligent.

I hate the football we play too. I don't like this tippy tappy football. I hate the way we are losing great players. Surely this is all evidence of Wenger losing the plot.

[mikeyb772001]

I'm at the stage now where I just don't care. In 2005 I was absolutely depressed at how bad we were in the league (finished 4th last day of the season when spurs only had to win to overtake us). Now I just think its an innevitability. Last season I didn't feel anything. A part of me thuoght 'why am I not so angry/depressed by this season?' It's because it just felt like an innevitability. It's got to the point where I can hardly be bothered watching highlights of Arsenal games. We play boring football. There isn't a single world class player in the team. The owners make me feel sick as the club is just a cash cow for them. In short: I don't care anymore.

Wenger, as much as I respect what he did early millenium and to a degree keeping us in the top 4, he's lost the plot and IMO the dressing room. The players he buys are absolutely average at best.

Gervinho-average headless chicken who was hardly an unknown or cheap
Giroud- same
Podolski- hardly an unknown and wasn't exactly cheap (11m + 100k a week)
Santos- awful
Rosicky- awful
Ramsey- average
Walcott- hasn't progressed enough
Arshavin-hardly cheap or an unknown- he was like the man of euro 2008
Santi-same


This is un fucking believeable. The Wenger of early millenium was signing world classplayers and on the cheap. I know the game has gotten more expensive but bargains still exist.

I hate what this club has become. There is no fucking ambition whatsoever and Wenger has to take blame. If Diaby was English he would of been out of this club well before now but as usual we go in light. The 08 season was just puzzling not replacing Flaimini, Gilberto or Diarra. Last season was simply negligent.

I hate the football we play too. I don't like this tippy tappy football. I hate the way we are losing great players. Surely this is all evidence of Wenger losing the plot.

Wenger is at fault for all of it. He is part of the board, the old cretin picked the fucking board ffs!!!

Until that old fraud wanker leaves nothing will change. Wenger is a mixture of aids and cancer ripping us apart and I hate the man. In fact I despise him so much I would relish the day he leaves or gets sacked. (not that it can happen as he decides everything)

Felt great singing “you don’t know what you’re doing” at the top of my voice Saturday. I just hope wenger suffers more abuse like that in the future and also more abuse from the media. Felt great watching that old *word censored* look like a clown live on tv

[Steve_I]

Doesnt have to be all his fault but he is the one that signs the players, he is the one that picks the team, he is the one that decides the tactics, he is the one who recommends new contracts for the shite players and he is the one that continually fails to motivate the players when they are going out to represent OUR CLUB - maybe it would be easier for you to blame the board for all that but that is just a bullshit opt out and you know it

This is only true if one accepts all the arguments behind your premise. i.e. that the current situation is worse than can be expected of a club in our position with our resources and methodology and that that methodoligy is wrong

Being able to write my opinion off as a 'bullshit option' is only possible because the assumption is made that all previous arguments that agree with your side of the debate and go against mine, are correct.

I'm aware that hereabouts I'm on a losing side of the 'debate' before I even start but I do not necessarily side with the view that we are in dire straits but are, in fact, not in an awful position at all. Frustrating yes, infuriating yes, disappointing yes, but not the end of the world and certainly not in a state that means we get rid of a very competent manager. (if we were managerless and Arsene had never managed us but was available with his current record but from a different club, we'd be wanting him - is a view of mine)

I have seen posts that say such as "this is what the AKBs say but that is because blah blah blah and therefore wrong: fact" Once that fact is decided upon, tho it is not actually a fact but an opinion, the original argument becomes moot and therefore irrelevant in the eyes of most.

The problem is that most statements on either side of the argument that go along the lines of blah blah blah blah blah: fact - are actually NOT indeed, facts: FACT!

[northbank123]

Steve_I, on the dire straits thing two points:

1) Depends what you view as dire straits. Since moving we've put in one real challenge for the PL that imploded within the space of a few games, we've scraped through to one CL semi where we were thoroughly embarrassed by a team that were outclassed in the final, we reached one FA Cup semi-final in which we were significantly out-thought and outbattled, and we blew our one genuine chance at silverware against relegation fodder. Nobody in their right mind can say we're going in the right direction as our best players have left at an alarming rate, we're further and further off the top and haven't got a hope in hell of winning the CL and tbh the FA Cup because it always gets shelved. Meanwhile, despite all this talk about financial prosperity our wage bill has spiralled out of control and we're in a cycle of giving lucrative contracts to injury-prone underachievers and then being saddled with them for years. Might not be battling relegation but many quite legitimately hold the view that considering the squad we held in 2004 and 2005 we are indeed in dire straits as we've no hope of going forward.

2) Even if you don't buy that, we're at a point of perpetually hanging-on to our coveted 4th place and consistently closer to the likes of Everton and Spurs than City and United. This might be the sum of your ambition (and indeed the club's) but I personally want more. What has Wenger showed in the last 4-5 years to justify faith in him somehow turning it round?

On another note, you say that Augie's views are based on anybody first accepting the premise behind his argument as correct. True for almost any argument. What's really frustrating though is that if you try and debate with a Wenger supporter their view pretty much invariably boils down to "well he was a world class manager 8 years ago, look at all his achievements, of course he knows best". Imagine trying to use logic to reason with somebody that holds that view.

[g88ner]

if we were managerless and Arsene had never managed us but was available with his current record but from a different club, we'd be wanting him - is a view of mine)

Just out of interest, which current record are you referring to?

Are you including 1998-2006 in that? or concentrating on the matter at hand i.e. the alarming decline over recent seasons?

Because if you turn your agrument on it's head, and ask if Wenger had left after the Champions League final in 2006 and was replaced by a manager (lets call him John Smith) who then went on to win nothing for the next 6 years, replaced all of our experienced players with a youth project that didn't really work, oversaw a staggering decline in quality, a decline in defensive stability (we conceded a whopping 49 last season! - and not much better in the 3 previous seasons either), and had overseen an 8-2 defeat at Old Trafford, as well as having the worst start to a season in 17 years last year, and worst start in 18 years this season, would you still be happy to retain him as manager?

And what if we'd gone from signing gems like Henry, Pires, Anelka, Cesc, RvP, Vieira, etc. (all pre-2006) and instead 'John Smith' was bringing through (and endlessly playing) players of lesser talent and lesser character, would you be ok with that?

And what if, together with this staggering decline, our entertainment value had also plummeted at the same rate as our ticket prices went up? and what if he was tactically naive, and spent most of the games berating the 4th official, and talking nonsense in interviews? what if he'd insisted on getting players like Bendtner, Denilson, Chamakh, Squillaci, Almunia, etc. on long contracts that make them dead-weights... and what if he over-relied on injury prone players that constantly handicapped us when they inevitably spend months on the sidelines? and what if he'd removed any sign of leadership from the team? and... ah, you get the idea.

Personally, I think people are [understandably] unable to seperate the great Wenger from the John Smith bloke but for me, he used to be top quality champagne, bubbling and fizzing away in all his glory... now he's a flat, watered down, pint of John Smith's