Adebayor's (Football Focus) Interview

As we're unlikely to see terraces again at football, this is the virtual equivalent where you can chat to your hearts content about all football matters and, obviously, Arsenal in particular. This forum encourages all Gooners to visit and contribute so please keep it respectful, clean and topical.
MT
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Post by MT »

hatemanu99, excellent counter and I think we are finding a common ground but... I urge you refer to your point regarding unsustainable business models, here we share the same view, It is a travesty that clubs are allowed to run beyond there means (Chelsea) and Mr Wenger is a strong opponent of this and I support him for it... This leads nicely to my main point, one that is driving the real fans out of love with the game. That where has the need for these unsustainable models come from? Wage bills that are crippling clubs in the hope that they can grab their share of the CL pie, agents must share the blame for this as the real power brokers are an elite club who could be accused of monopolising the player market, I do take pride in the fact that Mr Wenger has tried to stand up to these oligarchs but he is being crushed by a weak governing body who only want to line their pockets.
Honestly I think that Adebayor does have the potential to be a world class player but I do not like the man (from what I have seen on the pitch and in TV interviews) and I do want him to leave AFC. I think that he is in the same vein as Cole, Smith (Alan of Leeds) and the rest of the players who say one thing (AS "I will never play for Man U") and do another. I also believe that any one who demands the type of money these players do should have the shoulders to match their wallets and shouldn’t be surprised when they are booed; the market that pays them is the same that boos.
There was something of the Fred the Shred in Adebayors argument in the BBC. Some footballers could be the banking crisis personified

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Redexpress
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Post by Redexpress »

The question I get from all this is, where is the line between criticism and support? Is there one?

Whatever about fans booing, leaving early, or just not turning up (some have suggested the Stoke game will be a quiet affair), surely the club chairman shouldn't just rubbish supporters for having a critical point of view. It's all getting a bit stalinesque.

Wenger and the club are a victim of their own success at the moment. The new stadium was hailed a as a brave new dawn, with a "shift in the balance of power". Unfortunately the balance is swinging the opposite way to what we had been hoping for.

Surely Wenger cant jump ship after what has been, publicly, the first real whiff of discontent from the fans. As for Adebayor, I have shouted the words "useless lazy c**t" at my telly enough for one lifetime.

hatemanu99
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Post by hatemanu99 »

MT: an articulate and very well thought out point.
I must say I can't disagree with you. But are there many players in world football who truly care about the club they play for? They are few and far between. Gerrard and Carragher, and Maldini. off the top of my head. Shearer I guess we can count too. I think Terry would leave Chelsea at the drop of a hat should they become less of a force. Giggs, Scholes and Neville owe their loyalty to Fergie (after 20 years of hating they guy I have to admit he's the best manager we are likely to have seen in our lives) not necessarily to United as a club I think.
Cashley proved you can bring up a local kid who supported the club as a boy, put him in an outstanding team that wins the league unbeaten and misses out on the Champions League by a whisker (even though he didn't really deserve to take Flamini's place for the final), and he'll still leave for more money.
Be honest, and obviously I don't know what line of work you're in; but if you moved abroad to an employer who really kick-started your career and who you felt you owed a lot to, and a competitor then offered you double the money to do exactly the same job somewhere else; would you go?
It doesn't matter how much you earn, double what you earn now is a lot more. Players are human. The very top earners in my profession earn more or less the same as players, and they have been known to move firms (and no I'm not a banker) for more money. Our careers last 30-40 years (20-40% of which for those top earners are at those top wages), footballers play for 10 years maybe a bit more.
A lot of players come from poor backgrounds and always have done, particularly our African boys. I'm sure Ade does a lot back home in Togo to help those less fortunate than him. He very much looks up to Kanu for his charity work (and hence wanted his number 25 shirt). Just because he doesn't love Arsenal as much as us doesn't mean he's a total ar5ehole as a person.
It's not the same as back when players were from round the area and would booze with the same fans they used to stand on the terraces with.
Our job as fans is to support the team, yes criticism is fair and we are entitled to express our opinions. But what some of our fans have resorted to is really unnecessary and counter-productive.
Liverpool won the Champs League and got to another final with frankly an average team. Rafa's tactics are often more astute than Wenger's, particularly in Europe, but can anyone say their fans aren't an absolute shining example? 3-0 down in the final, most of us lot would have been on the plane home. Those guys sang even louder and Liverpool came back. That must have had a huge impact on that comeback. Amazing doesn't even begin to describe it. United in '99 against Munich. When has a team responded so well when their fans have left (I've just remembered my mate leaving the Lane when City came back to win 4-3 with 10 men, but these are freak incidents!)? Leaving early and booing can only be detrimental to the team.

MT
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Post by MT »

hatemanu99, the money argument, I concede your point as a matter of fact but the game isn’t about money, how many bankers played at corporate finance or mergers and acquisitions as boys?
So do you empathise with the sub prime traders or exec's at the now state owned banks that we support (they also give millions to charity with the added incentive of a 40% tax break)? At least these men chose their professions because of greed, to pander to argument of "you would do the same" is to accept that 'our' game has been infiltrated by the I want my cake and eat it brigade.
My point is that yes players can demand whatever they want but they should be man enough to accept the (sometimes) moral indignation that accompanies their requests.
Have a look at the link below, I'm sure you've already seen it, many a true word said in jest.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0smWRttp3ls

hatemanu99
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Post by hatemanu99 »

Haven't seen that before - brilliant!
Yeah but the game IS about money now, we can't change that, probably ever. The game isn't 'our' game any more than it is the next man's.
I don't empathise with bankers. They are very smart people who made obscene amounts of money for their employers and eventually got out of their depth, but the majority of what they did, in the early years anyway, allowed western society to prosper to the extent it has. Yes they chose their profession and trained hard to get there, but wouldn't any of them give it up to be a football/baseball/basketball player? It's not relevant to say they didn't play corporates as children. They do a job and get paid. And now they really are suffering the moral indignation of it, even though most of them had nothing to do with it.
You and I would love to get paid to play football, but if we did it would be our job, and we'd maximise what we got out of it to get the best possible deal.
I guess what we're agreeing on is that society has become far too materialistic. I don't really believe anyone wouldn't have their cake and eat it. Cynical perhaps.
We've made our point to Ade and the boys now, we should get over it and get behind them all for next season.

MT
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Post by MT »

How is the point made? Ade blames the fans and Wenger is flirtin around the idea of going to Madrid (allegadley). To now get behind Ade would make us impotent hypocrites when clubs/players/managers stop holding fans to ransom with emotional blackmail I.E. Fan upset, Fan expresses this through only medium they know boo or question manager, Fan is told he is a disgrace doesnt love club etc. Then the point will have been made.
Also you contradict you're previous point about sustainable business model, not to sound agressive but pick a side and stay there.

hatemanu99
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Post by hatemanu99 »

We live in a world ruled by money. I don't condone unsound business practice but we have to accept that the game is about money now. My opinion itself isn't contradictory; it's contradicted by the reality of how things are. I don't like it any more than you do but we can't change it. I wouldn't pay someone a sum I thought was over the odds and which could be a detriment to my business, but I would try and get my employer to pay me as much as I can get. If you can honestly say you would gladly accept a lower wage than your direct peers because you didn't want the business to be unsustainable then please send me your CV!
Well I'm off to renew my season ticket. I believe the best way to express your discontent is to not renew yours. That is making a real stand. To pay (a lot of) money and then come and be negative and/or leave early is the biggest contradiction you can make. It's not like buying a dud TV and asking for your money back, or paying for a bad meal and complaining.
I'd love to have the atmosphere of Anfield or St James' Park. Unfortunately it looks like that is a pipe dream.

Step
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Post by Step »

I've wanted rid of him since last Summer.

If AC prepared to part with £30M (as rumour has it) lets bite their hand off or take £20M plus Flamini.

I have not sung Ade's name since his disgraceful attitude towards Arsenal last Summer and that won't change.

Added to that he is a pretty poor palyer who doesn't put the effort in and needs 10 chances to have a chance of converting 1.

Carlos Tevez anyone???

MT
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Post by MT »

St james park or Anfield please... jump on the media bandwagon... how is leaving early (as an expression of my disgust for the teams lack of effort) a contradiction of my view point, where did I say I left early anyhow, not renewing my season ticket would be a moot gesture as the waiting list is 8 years long.
I do suggest that the fans take a more vigilant stance. I have not swayed from my position once whereas you vilifie the 3 above us and then support the very people who are turning us into the same type of club... dont you see that?

bigreddave
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Post by bigreddave »

GET HIM OUT NOW! Lazy, one footed over paid mercenary. :evil:

hatemanu99
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Post by hatemanu99 »

I was at uni at newcastle and went to about 20 games in 3 years - the atmosphere is great. The Board crippling a club with debt and the fans giving their support are mutually exclusive. Two totally separate things. If/when Kroenke takes over will you go and support someone else if he puts us in debt (and by all means boo if that happens)? Of course not, football is tribal by nature and your support for your team transcends how the club is run or who it employs. Liverpool aren't run soundly (in my opinion) but their supporters are fantastic. I'd like our support to be the same, not our club. I vilified Chelsea fans and I stick by that.
Leaving early is like going to the theatre and berating the actors and leaving; and then going back the next week to the same performance and doing the same - it just doesn't make any sense. You've chosen to pay for something, and then not consumed the product. How about you just throw money in the bin. If you don't enjoy it, don't go. Any rational human being would realise that. "A moot gesture" indeed, exactly my point about not risking missing the good times. Presumably you hate Labour and Conservative but won't vote Liberal because you think it's a 'wasted vote'? The same counter-intuitive argument. The waiting list is 8 years long because there are plenty of people who would support the team through bad times.
You've not swayed from your position but your reasoning is unsound. Fair enough boo the Board/Manager etc if they are ruining the club, but we have a future. We haven't been able to win anything because the 3 above us have so much more money at their disposal. That will change in time. Wenger is the only manager in the world who could steer us in this direction and maintain our status as a big 4 team. Too many people have been spoiled by the good years and expect there never to be a blip.

MT
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Post by MT »

hatemanu99, I am not a consumer and the fact that equate buying a season ticket with buying a theatre ticket hence the passion and love involved is the same discredits you and you're argument.
Have Liverpool never booed a manager/team http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/ ... -21206417/
What about Newcastle http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/footbal ... 578832.stm
If we have a foreign owner who pumps money in like Manu or Chelsea will you tar yourself with the same brush?
Hypocrite

hatemanu99
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Post by hatemanu99 »

We'll just have to agree to disagree. Of course other fans boo managers/teams, just nowhere near to the same extent we do, and they certainly don't leave the ground at the slightest hint that.......lo and behold.....we might not win a game.
If you don't think you're consuming a product then your whole rationale is rendered illogical, you appear to live in some sort of fantasy world. This is 2009 not 1971, football is a business and we the punters are its consumers. Everyone involved is in it for the money (even Abramovich and the City owners believe they will make gains longer-term), the players just happen to be lucky enough to be of the required standard to play at this level.
You carry on booing and shaming the rest of us by leaving early. When Wenger leaves and takes our best players with him cos he's had enough of this nonsense from idiots like yourselves, it will be interesting to see a) how the team fares and b) how many 'fans' still attend games knowing it will be a long while before we win anything again. Wenger is the best manager this club has ever had, and that is an indisputable fact.

MT
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Post by MT »

hatemanu99, you have not addressed any of my arguments and assume that I boo/leave early because your argument is weak.
I have never said Wenger is not the best manager the club has had or that he should leave.
I have said that the FANS have been lead to support what is now a business and that the players we have are not deserving of the wages they are paid (our wage bill is bigger than Liverpools) now this has now been realised by a large contingent of fans and they are not willing to stand for it so they express their feelings vocally or by leaving rather than following blindly, my argument is that these fans have a genuine point of view and should be listened to.
Wenger asked to be judged at the end of the season, now he ask's for 2 years (which he said after the CL final) how long before he asks for 5 years.
I do hope I am wrong though.

hatemanu99
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Post by hatemanu99 »

I'm not sure you even know what your point is any more. I haven't asumed anything about you, but you have maintained you have a right to boo and leave early, which is where we disagree.
Of course you have the right to, but my point is that booing and leaving early is counter-productive if you want your team to do well.
As I said, and again this is key to where we disagree, the best form of expressing your discontent is not to purchase/consume the product. There are other avenues, albeit perhaps less obvious, without causing detriment to the team on the pitch. Booing is not only counter-productive, but completely ineffective. Most managers you would think have the self-respect not to bow to fans' demands, but more than any Wenger, the most stubborn manager in the world! Supporting a team I guess is blindly following it, but if the fans were the best people to run a club by dictating who plays and who doesn't, why have a manager? Fans over the years have generally been discontented when they have got a manager who clearly hasn't been good enough from the outset. That is understandable. Wenger has surely earned enough respect and trust to be able to run the team his way? I just feel the dissenters have been spoiled by the good years and should be more patient. The new stadium has dictated that we shouldn't be able to compete until it is paid off, so in reality what Wenger has done in the interim is remarkable.
Great manager that he is, would Fergie have done what Wenger has on this budget? Not a hope in hell. It took him 13 years to get to a Champions League final with the most financial resource of any club in world football. 7 or 8 years to win the league. He's bought some absolute dross too, and paid a lot more than we did for Cygan or Stepanovs.
I wholeheartedly agree that some players aren't good enough and are clearly paid too much, but many are very young still and must improve with time. I also agree Ade deserved the early season booing given his wage demands, but can't we give him the chance to make amends? He seems to have committed now, but I guess time will tell. If he stays are we going to boo him till he leaves? Even if he gets back to his 07/08 form? That's what I can't accept - the fickleness. I fully believe Wenger will turn things round and vindicate the last few years. It's a longer term project that people don't appreciate, they just want success right now (even though relatively speaking we have been successful).
Overall I'm more frustrated that Arsenal fans in general are so quiet, and that's why the fact that the only noises I hear are booing annoys me even more. There's never a great atmosphere at home. Apart from the first 5 minutes against United til Park scored.
I think I've addressed your points, and I do respect your right to voice your dissatisfaction, you just haven't attempted to understand mine.
PS. Please stop writing "you're" when you mean "your". It's really annoying.

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