The worst fans in the world?

[6OONER PETE]

What right do us so called fans have to question Wenger?

Er...isn't that part of being a football fan. It certainly is if you've supported Arsenal for forty years. Some of the posts on here seem to think that anyone who finds fault with Wenger somehow isn't a true fan.
We all know that Wenger is the best manager we have ever had.New training ground,new stadium,attractive football, trophies. But that doesn't mean we now have to blindly go along with all the decisions he makes now.
Wenger has made mistakes. Not replacing Flamini; playing Eboue as some silky skilled midfielder when at best he is cover at fullback ( I agree it is wrong to boo any player however); not selling Adebayor (article says there's not too much fault in him!!!!); not starting Arshavin in the cup semi-final.
My biggest worry about Wenger,however, is that he only seems to know one way of playing. Short passing to feet. That's his game plan.If it doesn't work we're stuck.Teams know how to play against us now. We get fouled a lot but do we make the most of the free kicks? No, instead of putting the ball into the box we pass it sideways 2 yards. We never seemed to have worked on dead ball situations, either defending or attacking.
He's also the only manager that knows before kick off how he is going to use his substitutes. Take Theo off with 20 minures to go!!!
We have "played football that others only dream of" .......yes but not much this season.
Us fans that criticise Wenger also find his after match comments more and more bizarre.
I've criticised Wenger but I'm still Arsenal through and through. You are allowed to find fault and still be 100% Arsenal.

[Skooner]

Frankly I don’t take much notice of these articles any more, there is clearly differing views about the state of the club across the fan base but apparently because I don’t class Wenger as the God almighty I don’t really count. Oh well, I’ll just keep going to the matches, putting my money where my mouth, showing support as much as I can but also showing disapproval when things happen I disagree with (I don’t boo players but have booed very occasionally at the end of a match).

We all want the club to be successful, it’s just that at the moment, people disagree about what success is and how we should be going about achieving it.

[pep123]

Well said. We all bleed red but some people think they have a few more pints of blood than others.

[denismajik]

There seems to be a lack of loyalty to both the team and the coach.
We haven`t won anything cos were not good enough. To be able to compete with chelski and mancs we need the investment they can provide and thats that, simple.
To boo a player is a pretty crappy thing to do considering their performances in other seasons was pretty good.(Eboue in his first seasons),even Thierry had crap games.We`ve been hit by woeful injury problems but we still managed to end 4th if we hadn`t lost Cesc and Theo games would of had a different outcome. As for not replacing flamini we didn`t need to, the players have been here all the time but had no chance of playing together at a consistent level.We`ve got Arshavin who made an instant impact and if the team can be held together for next season and the players bought by The Prof are of the desired quality then Game On. Those who watched Barcelona dismantle the mancs thats Wengers aim we`ve seen it in glimpses but this teams young
But on a lighter note senderos in a milan shirt

[Skooner]

There seems to be a lack of loyalty to both the team and the coach.
We haven`t won anything cos were not good enough. To be able to compete with chelski and mancs we need the investment they can provide and thats that, simple.
To boo a player is a pretty crappy thing to do considering their performances in other seasons was pretty good.(Eboue in his first seasons),even Thierry had crap games.We`ve been hit by woeful injury problems but we still managed to end 4th if we hadn`t lost Cesc and Theo games would of had a different outcome. As for not replacing flamini we didn`t need to, the players have been here all the time but had no chance of playing together at a consistent level.We`ve got Arshavin who made an instant impact and if the team can be held together for next season and the players bought by The Prof are of the desired quality then Game On. Those who watched Barcelona dismantle the mancs thats Wengers aim we`ve seen it in glimpses but this teams young
But on a lighter note senderos in a milan shirt

I think Arsenal fans are loyal and have backed the team/coach longer than a lot of other clubs fans would have. Of course there is the corporate element to the new ground who are demanding champagne moments every week but that’s a minority.

I completely disagree about replacing Flamini, I don’t think Arsenal have missed any one player more than him during Wengers reign. Why? Not because he was the best player we have ever had but we didn’t replace him and had no like for like player. I’ll never accept Denilson is a quality defensive midfielder (in my mind he is more of a poor mans Fabregas) and Song looks more comfortable at centre back.

People who point to the clubs lack of funds only need to look at the wage bill of around £100m a year and think again. Can we compete on transfer fees with Chelsea and City, no, do we overpay as yet unproven players yes. The likes of Eboue, Denilson, Bentdner etc aren’t terrible players but they wouldn’t get anything like the money they are on with us anywhere else. They’ve done nothing to earn it yet. When they win the league of CL then I’ll be more than happy to give them all a bumper pay rise.

For what this group of players have achieved the wage bill should be something like 25% lower (no particular reason for that figure, just illustrating that it should substantially lower than it currently is). This would free up another £20m/£25m a year to use in the transfer market.

[Exiled-Gooner]

I go with Skooner and Gooner Pete,but i also like to ask the author of this post WHEN can we complain??As a fan i think i got every right to complain if i don't think THE ARSENAL are playing well!!or that the manager or the board are not doing the right things with my team.The first 7 yrs wenger gave us trophies and football that was out of this world and in 40 odd yrs supporting this club it was manna from heaven believe you me but we had the chance to push on from that glorious 2003/04 season BUT wenger and the board didn't take that chance!!!!

As pointed out our wage bill considering the players on show is a bit of a piss take compared to our 3 many rivals(not that shit from down the road)as in the last 4 yrs these 3 have WON trophies while we have stagnated and if nothing is done during the summer it be same as last season.

[tel]

Sometimes I feel as though I no longer support a football club but instead have joined some sort of weird cult. It's as if some of our " fans" are completly brainwashed by Wenger and think those of us who dare question dear leader are idiots.

As exiled said our fans have been far more tolerant than any other club I can think of in the same position. To question our loyalty therefore is bollocks to be honest with you.

[denhaaggooner]

Irespect most peoples views most of the time but to try and say adebyebye is good !!!! i dont care if he doesnt score 30 goals a season i only care about someone playing with passion , helping out in defence when your needed ,someone who looks drained at the end of 90 minutes someone who looks utterly down when we lose and he does not fit the bill in my opinion he should never wear an arsenal shirt again . hey but thats just mine !

[henrygregg]

I almost admire the author of this articles faith and unquestioning support of Wenger.
You sound like his son defending him in the school playground!
Fair enough you love him and he is indeed our greatest ever manager.

However, your failure to see anything wrong with adebayors performances disqualify your credibility.
Either your sight is impaired or you do not have a season ticket and have been watching him on youtube.

Because Adebayor has been an absolute disgrace. Forget the goals - he doesn't run around!
I've seen sunday leaguers put in more effort!

Its like you turning up to the office, opening a can of stella and putting your feet up on the desk!

What right do I have to criticise? I am a fan. I care. That is what gives me the right.
You want unquestioning faith join a monastery.

[hatemanu99]

"I think Arsenal fans are loyal and have backed the team/coach longer than a lot of other clubs fans would have."

"...our fans have been far more tolerant than any other club I can think of in the same position."

Like who? Spurs? Villa? Even the circus at Newcastle? To say "we are more tolerant" when tens of thousands of us have left a game with more than half an hour to go is ludicrous. There are 16 other teams in the Premier League who almost never win anything, ever. That they still have any fans left at all makes them a lot more "tolerant" than us. The other 3 have at least 10 times more money than us (although I do agree we could cut our wage bill). In terms of being a 'big club', we have no right over Liverpool or United to win anything. They're much bigger than us and always will be. We've overachieved for years under Wenger. By that definition Liverpool must be the most tolerant fans in the world. Chelsea are a fad and once Abramovich is bored they'll be a second tier club again.

Even Fergie had a rough patch a few years back when they hadn't won the league. Ok they won the cup but they were well short of where they should/would expect to be considering they are the biggest club in the world. I don't recall their fans - the same ones we all mock for being plastic and not being from Manchester - behaving like some of our guys.

It's absolutely right that we should voice our displeasure at the lack of success but booing the team and leaving during the game cannot help at all.

And to those who say the club hasn't moved forward since 04........we have a new stadium to compete with any in the world, and a final and a semi in Europe is better than the club has achieved in its entire history. Plus we really should have won the league last year. To do what we have while moving to a new stadium is astonishing if you actually stopped and thought about other clubs' achievements in the same position. Get some perspective.

We'll win the Champions League by 2012 in my opinion. And I'm sure the league before that. Wenger's done a hell of a lot more in his first 13 years than Fergie did. Fergie is widely considered the greatest manager ever. Let's see what Wenger has done by the end of his career.......

[djhdjh]

Please say you have not just compared Arsenal fans concerned after 4 years without a trophy from a position of great strength but still supportive broadly of their manager's right to remain to Newcastle fans who demand a manager sacked after 9 months having moved them forward?

Cut the crap about them having "10 times more money" as well. Our revenues are higher than Chelsea and Liverpool and not that far off Manchester United. Of course they are all funding from different sources other than revenue but it's not adding up to 10 times more. Hyperbole just demonstrates a lack of understanding of why people are concerned. And don't call Liverpool bigger than us. As the Premier London club in brand terms we have a major edge on them in terms of club size that they will never bridge unless we decline further.

As for your comments about Fergie, well after 4 years there without trophies the fans wanted him out and had banners saying so and I certainly remember whining even in the period you mention that more than matched this, although they were still more competitive than us. After 4 years our fans go on marches to support Wenger.

The club has moved forward off the pitch in the intervening period but on it we have slipped from being Invincible to a very distant 4th. Some decline was probably inevitable but the scale of it has been alarming and is doubly so with Man City poised to offer a genuine threat to the top 4 in the long term for the first time anyone has since Robson left Newcastle.

As for your comments on Ferguson. He came to United in 1986. 13 years on they were the biggest club in the world, having been an also-ran in the English game next to Liverpool and Everton when he arrived, and had just won the Treble. Clearly Wenger had the problem of Ferguson established and in his way to make his task much more difficult but to say it's "a hell of a lot more" that Wenger has achieved is unfortunately wrong IMO, although that in no way belittles the transformation Wenger has allowed the club to make.

So in conclusion Wenger could resign now and be right up there with Chapman for our greatest ever manager and I think every Arsenal fan without exception would laud his achievements but the reality is that like every other manager he has made mistakes and has made some quite fundamental ones which need correcting and fans are well within their rights to point them out with due respect to him.

[NBN]

As has said before if you are treated like customers then you will behave like customers.

We were moved to the concrete bowl (which the writer describes as 'fabulous'??????) with promises of big money signings to rival Chelsea and Man United, it was seen by many supporters as a neccesary evil. Where are these signings and the sucesses? This is what fans have a problem with and in my opinion it is totally justified. Or we could just bury or heads in the sand and say that everthing rosy whilst the board are busy filling their pockets and destroying the history of our great club.

[hatemanu99]

djhdjh - fair points re Fergie although I do think Wenger is right up there with him comparing the same stages of their careers.

Fair enough comparison of our league position since 04 but you've neglected the fact we have moved forward a long way in Europe.

I'd urge you to take a closer look at the financials, our revenues are slightly lower than Chelsea and over £50m lower than United, probably more in the last season. United and Liverpool have much higher commercial revenue streams which reflects their vastly superior global fan base (which is what I'm basing Liverpool being bigger than us on mainly, but they do also have much more history in terms of trophies). Possibly even Chelsea's commercial revenue is higher so i'm not sure our brand is technically the biggest in London any more.

The biggest difference though is in the business models. We have a debt to service and this is securitised against our main income stream ie gate receipts. Therefore we have AT LEAST 10 times less cash to spend. I really believe we'll reap the benefit of this longer term policy in years to come.

I've always said it's absolute right that we express displeasure, but I think it can be done in less destructive ways than booing the team on the pitch and leaving early.

[djhdjh]

The reason I said we had higher revenues than Chelsea is because we have had less on-field success. Maybe I'm wrong but I'd stake a lot that if you took out the effects of prize money and TV revenue and so-on from additional Champions League rounds, which is a transient thing, we would be ahead of them. Ditto United, take out that and I think it would be a lot closer.

I see that this can be a slightly daft way of looking at things (you could say that take out the Champions League money and we're maybe on a level with someone else like Villa for example, although I doubt that is actually the case due to our stadium revenue) but the trouble is that otherwise you can say we had weak finances but this has actually occurred through not being good enough on the field rather than something which is not controllable by the on-field side of the club. Since the clubs being compared all compete in the same 4 competitions it makes sense to me, although no doubt to no-one else.

We have got better in Europe and there's no doubt that Arsene has made some progress in terms of tailoring his principles enough to make us more efficient in Europe, although I think that the introduction of the straight knockout phase with 16 left has helped us along with the decline in quality of the other European Leagues.

In terms of the finances I still think we are long-term set up to be a bigger club than Liverpool. Their new stadium will never get the revenues ours does (although that is largely thanks to our greater ability to exploit the corporate market in London which may compromise other non-financial issues) and the London base will help with other financial issues as well as long as we remain in the top 4. As for Chelsea, their commercial revenues have again risen with success, it says a fair amount that Emirates were prepared to leave them for us about which is the more desirable brand to be associated with.

I agree with you that when this debt gets paid off theoretically we are in a lovely financial position (in about 15 years time), although the Highbury money looks like being a lot lower than expected and this is a real worry for the short to medium term. Trouble is if we drop out of the top 4 we will be in real trouble as that will hit virtually every revenue stream at the club and account for a lot of money directly as well. The board are far too blase about this possibility in the face of Man City I feel and need to realise that investment is required to stem that possibility at all costs. I still don't accept that the financial gap to spend is 10 times larger. We're close on wages to United and ahead of Liverpool. Transfer fees it is a problem but I still suspect there is a reluctance to spend rather than simply not having the money. We were prepared to pay £15 million to get Arshavin without bringing similar money in so there has to be a certain amount there. It's a lot less than United have been spending for sure but still not as big as you are claiming.

However the key point I would make is this: you may well be right on the financial elements, you certainly seem more well informed than me on it. But the bottom line is that there are fundamental problems in our team which can be corrected with little net cost once players who are patently not good enough or not interested are removed. Wenger has failed to address these problems adequately. Therefore I take real issue with people like you and the writer of the original article lambasting fans (and comparing us with Newcastle and the worst fans in the world) for daring to point these issues out when they patently exist and threaten what is a very precarious financial situation by threatening to knock us out of the top 4.

I'm leaving it there because I'm boring and relatively ill-informed for this discussion.

[JakeN13]

The two problems I got with Wenger, which goes hand in hand really, is that

1 He's not a winner. One thing people said about him before he came to England was that he's a manager that always is the second best, unfortunately that's been true. He's won titles, yes, but he's not maintained the suceess. Even a winner can lose a battle but what makes him a winner is that he always bounces back because he doesn't accept defeat.

2 If he's bought a player he will stick by him no matter how poor he is and even accept it if he doesn't give 100% for the club. He will find excuses for anything. If he spent half as much energy on his own players performances as he does on the ref, especially the 4th offical, we would be much better off. I think it's lead to players not even repecting him anymore because they know they will get away with anything. Fergie chucked Keane after he stepped over the line, Wenger probably baked Gallas a cake and asked him to please never be so silly again.

Saying all this, It's sad to hear people calling for his head. He's a man who works day and night for the club. He has made us a top four club with more good memories than most other clubs over the last 10 years. The economy is proabbaly more stable than any other club's in England and whatever I perosonally think about our new stadium we manage to get 60 000 people in there nearly every game.

I'm extremly confident Wenger will get it right again, just like he did in 98 and 02 after people had been doubting him and saying he'd lost it but will he maintain it for a few years this time? I hope so...even him must learnb from his mistakes eventually.