The Enigma Stadium

[AA23Northbank]

This team may not have had the investment some fans want in, but it is of most importance for us to live within our means and look to the Emirates Stadium as reducing the debt before we can make top-class, expensive signings. Wenger has done wonders in the transfer market, flogging Adebarndoor for £25 million and getting TV in for £10 mil while selling Toure for £16 mil were masterstrokes in my opinion, and finding players such as Diaby and Song who have immense potential. We do need a new goalkeeper, a back-up centre half and we're quite likely to get Chamakh on the free (who, in my opinion, looks quick and sharp and is good in the air) but we should give the midfield more time. Diaby has improved immensely and hopefully Eastmond will get more opportunities. To the fans who want us to spend more now and revamp our squad completely, I say this: look at Man U, look at Liverpool and look at Pompey. Man U and Liverpool are in serious debt due to living beyond their means in the search for trophies (United's debt from the Glazer takeover excaberated by signing the likes of Berbatov, Anderson, Carrick, Nani and flops like Tosic) and Pompey may have won more trophies than us since '06, but they're financially ruined. Give this team and AW time, it only needs tweaking, we've done remarkably well this season to have lasted this long in the title race with so many injuries, keep the faith and sing up for The Arsenal!

So many flaws in your post -

1. Diaby has not improved immensely and I will stake my life that he will never make it as an Arsenal player - the guy has no football brain whatsoever, is as inconsistent as the weather and is a lazy fcuker If your and wenger's masterplan is built around diaby then we are seriously fcuked

2. Wenger has done wonders in the market ? Some yes but it is wenger that continues to leave this squad threadbare every fcuking season - track back to any of wenger's soundbites at this stage or the end of the last 3 seasons and you will without doubt hear him referring to our injury lists but yet at no stage has he ever made strides to increase the size of the squad. The kudo's you have given him for selling greedybayor and kolo are misplaced cos he himself admitted that the fans drove greedybollox out while it was gallas that forced his hand over kolo.

3. You cite manure and point to buy's like barbietov, nani etc but choose to ignore buys like shrek, ronaldo and van der sar and also choose to admit that in these dark times where they are financially fcuked they were/are going for their 4th league title in a row and were champions of europe only 2 years ago.

4. How much more time do you want to give wenger and this team ? We stayed in the title race for as long as we did this season cos the other contenders were as bad as we were. This team does not require "tweaking" - it requires a major injection of talent not potential. It also requires a first choice centre back cos gallas is as good as gone - fcuk it if you can't see where the players are not good enough at this stage then it is pointless me trying to tell you

Behind Alex Song, Diaby has been the most improved player of the season. I'm not saying we should build a team around him, but he does have a future at the club and I think he'll continue to improve. Getting £25 million for Greedybayor was brilliant work, and who cares that Kolo went? Gallas has had a very good season following his shocker the previous year and IMO deserves a new contract. United are going to struggle in the next few years as the debt our good friend Malcolm loaded on the club and their initial spending spree takes its toll, they may need to cash in on their most valuable asset (Shrek) and when he's not in the team, they are shite. And look at Liverpool, the buys they made (Aquilani, Babel, Riera) and the debt Gillet and Hicks loaded on the club, they can't even afford to sack their own manager ffs!
We have made strides to improve and I hope we can keep improving next season. I agree that some players need to be jettisoned (Denilson, Silvestre and sadly Eduardo as he's lost confidence), but our current business model is fine, the squad is improving and with the additions of a new GK, new CB, maybe give Eastmond some game time in the centre of midfield, and probably Chamakh coming in, I can see us challenging again next season.

[charliegeorgewhocanhitem]

We were conned end of If we'd still been at Highbury with David Dein still there we'd still have beeen competing wth our biggest rivals instead of becoming the new t*******m, lightweighters who fold completely when up against big rivals. Fuck the new ground, it's a curse and a weight around our very feeble necks. Next season? a replay of the last four unless we buy a few players who are'nt 16 year olds from ****** Leone/Ganbia/Ivory Coast/Venezuala/Nepal etc,etc.etc,etc
Not planning my "retirement" yet but I'm coming towards the twilight years of my "career" at the Arse I guess, 51 and not getting any younger so the best of luck to you youngens, never get fooled into hating any other club more than the fucking **** and remember that when confronted with the fuckers home or away. Stand up, defend our great club in whatever way you deem necessary and be proud of who and what you are knowing that you're a superior breed Above all remember our proud history, maybe we'll make some at the new place but give me the "Old Girl" any day. My day is over tho, I accept that, up to a new generation to keep up our proud traditions, just hope you all know about them and are prepared to defend them as we did. Ok, sad old man's rant over No matter how much I whinge and moan and go on about the "old days", it's coz I love "The Arsenal" and will til the day I die

[SteveO 35]

We were conned end of If we'd still been at Highbury with David Dein still there we'd still have beeen competing wth our biggest rivals instead of becoming the new t*******m, lightweighters who fold completely when up against big rivals. Fuck the new ground, it's a curse and a weight around our very feeble necks. Next season? a replay of the last four unless we buy a few players who are'nt 16 year olds from ****** Leone/Ganbia/Ivory Coast/Venezuala/Nepal etc,etc.etc,etc
Not planning my "retirement" yet but I'm coming towards the twilight years of my "career" at the Arse I guess, 51 and not getting any younger so the best of luck to you youngens, never get fooled into hating any other club more than the fucking y**s and remember that when confronted with the fuckers home or away. Stand up, defend our great club in whatever way you deem necessary and be proud of who and what you are knowing that you're a superior breed Above all remember our proud history, maybe we'll make some at the new place but give me the "Old Girl" any day. My day is over tho, I accept that, up to a new generation to keep up our proud traditions, just hope you all know about them and are prepared to defend them as we did. Ok, sad old man's rant over No matter how much I whinge and moan and go on about the "old days", it's coz I love "The Arsenal" and will til the day I die

Fucking hell.....I've found someone of a like mind. That's great for me but not so sure for you Charlie

[flash gunner]

We were conned end of If we'd still been at Highbury with David Dein still there we'd still have beeen competing wth our biggest rivals instead of becoming the new t*******m, lightweighters who fold completely when up against big rivals. Fuck the new ground, it's a curse and a weight around our very feeble necks. Next season? a replay of the last four unless we buy a few players who are'nt 16 year olds from ****** Leone/Ganbia/Ivory Coast/Venezuala/Nepal etc,etc.etc,etc
Not planning my "retirement" yet but I'm coming towards the twilight years of my "career" at the Arse I guess, 51 and not getting any younger so the best of luck to you youngens, never get fooled into hating any other club more than the fucking y**s and remember that when confronted with the fuckers home or away. Stand up, defend our great club in whatever way you deem necessary and be proud of who and what you are knowing that you're a superior breed Above all remember our proud history, maybe we'll make some at the new place but give me the "Old Girl" any day. My day is over tho, I accept that, up to a new generation to keep up our proud traditions, just hope you all know about them and are prepared to defend them as we did. Ok, sad old man's rant over No matter how much I whinge and moan and go on about the "old days", it's coz I love "The Arsenal" and will til the day I die

The best post in the history of this forum

[charliegeorgewhocanhitem]

We were conned end of If we'd still been at Highbury with David Dein still there we'd still have beeen competing wth our biggest rivals instead of becoming the new t*******m, lightweighters who fold completely when up against big rivals. Fuck the new ground, it's a curse and a weight around our very feeble necks. Next season? a replay of the last four unless we buy a few players who are'nt 16 year olds from ****** Leone/Ganbia/Ivory Coast/Venezuala/Nepal etc,etc.etc,etc
Not planning my "retirement" yet but I'm coming towards the twilight years of my "career" at the Arse I guess, 51 and not getting any younger so the best of luck to you youngens, never get fooled into hating any other club more than the fucking y**s and remember that when confronted with the fuckers home or away. Stand up, defend our great club in whatever way you deem necessary and be proud of who and what you are knowing that you're a superior breed Above all remember our proud history, maybe we'll make some at the new place but give me the "Old Girl" any day. My day is over tho, I accept that, up to a new generation to keep up our proud traditions, just hope you all know about them and are prepared to defend them as we did. Ok, sad old man's rant over No matter how much I whinge and moan and go on about the "old days", it's coz I love "The Arsenal" and will til the day I die

Fucking hell.....I've found someone of a like mind. That's great for me but not so sure for you Charlie

The more "old schoolers" the better as far as I'm concerned mate Hate the way our club and football in general has gone but accept I can't stop "progress"

[charliegeorgewhocanhitem]

We were conned end of If we'd still been at Highbury with David Dein still there we'd still have beeen competing wth our biggest rivals instead of becoming the new t*******m, lightweighters who fold completely when up against big rivals. Fuck the new ground, it's a curse and a weight around our very feeble necks. Next season? a replay of the last four unless we buy a few players who are'nt 16 year olds from ****** Leone/Ganbia/Ivory Coast/Venezuala/Nepal etc,etc.etc,etc
Not planning my "retirement" yet but I'm coming towards the twilight years of my "career" at the Arse I guess, 51 and not getting any younger so the best of luck to you youngens, never get fooled into hating any other club more than the fucking y**s and remember that when confronted with the fuckers home or away. Stand up, defend our great club in whatever way you deem necessary and be proud of who and what you are knowing that you're a superior breed Above all remember our proud history, maybe we'll make some at the new place but give me the "Old Girl" any day. My day is over tho, I accept that, up to a new generation to keep up our proud traditions, just hope you all know about them and are prepared to defend them as we did. Ok, sad old man's rant over No matter how much I whinge and moan and go on about the "old days", it's coz I love "The Arsenal" and will til the day I die

The best post in the history of this forum

Would'nt go that far but thanks

[flash gunner]

We were conned end of If we'd still been at Highbury with David Dein still there we'd still have beeen competing wth our biggest rivals instead of becoming the new t*******m, lightweighters who fold completely when up against big rivals. Fuck the new ground, it's a curse and a weight around our very feeble necks. Next season? a replay of the last four unless we buy a few players who are'nt 16 year olds from ****** Leone/Ganbia/Ivory Coast/Venezuala/Nepal etc,etc.etc,etc
Not planning my "retirement" yet but I'm coming towards the twilight years of my "career" at the Arse I guess, 51 and not getting any younger so the best of luck to you youngens, never get fooled into hating any other club more than the fucking y**s and remember that when confronted with the fuckers home or away. Stand up, defend our great club in whatever way you deem necessary and be proud of who and what you are knowing that you're a superior breed Above all remember our proud history, maybe we'll make some at the new place but give me the "Old Girl" any day. My day is over tho, I accept that, up to a new generation to keep up our proud traditions, just hope you all know about them and are prepared to defend them as we did. Ok, sad old man's rant over No matter how much I whinge and moan and go on about the "old days", it's coz I love "The Arsenal" and will til the day I die

The best post in the history of this forum

Would'nt go that far but thanks

Ok Nearly the best post in the history of this forum

but seriously youve hit the nail on the head, it worries the fuck out of me that modern day gooners dont hate sp*rs much anymore the chavs or united are more hated and are happy to watch beautiful but ultimately fruitless football in a soul-less bowl while they buy their white and blue shirts

Boasting about the quality of football but winning fuck all was always sp*rs fucking line when i ribbed them as a youngster growing up in a scum town

[xDAVEYx]

We were conned end of If we'd still been at Highbury with David Dein still there we'd still have beeen competing wth our biggest rivals instead of becoming the new t*******m, lightweighters who fold completely when up against big rivals. Fuck the new ground, it's a curse and a weight around our very feeble necks. Next season? a replay of the last four unless we buy a few players who are'nt 16 year olds from ****** Leone/Ganbia/Ivory Coast/Venezuala/Nepal etc,etc.etc,etc
Not planning my "retirement" yet but I'm coming towards the twilight years of my "career" at the Arse I guess, 51 and not getting any younger so the best of luck to you youngens, never get fooled into hating any other club more than the fucking y**s and remember that when confronted with the fuckers home or away. Stand up, defend our great club in whatever way you deem necessary and be proud of who and what you are knowing that you're a superior breed Above all remember our proud history, maybe we'll make some at the new place but give me the "Old Girl" any day. My day is over tho, I accept that, up to a new generation to keep up our proud traditions, just hope you all know about them and are prepared to defend them as we did. Ok, sad old man's rant over No matter how much I whinge and moan and go on about the "old days", it's coz I love "The Arsenal" and will til the day I die

The best post in the history of this forum

Would'nt go that far but thanks

bloody love it

[charliegeorgewhocanhitem]

The best post in the history of this forum[/quote]


Would'nt go that far but thanks [/quote]

Ok Nearly the best post in the history of this forum

but seriously youve hit the nail on the head, it worries the fuck out of me that modern day gooners dont hate sp*rs much anymore the chavs or united are more hated and are happy to watch beautiful but ultimately fruitless football in a soul-less bowl while they buy their white and blue shirts

Boasting about the quality of football but winning fuck all was always sp*rs fucking line when i ribbed them as a youngster growing up in a scum town[/quote]

The deluded **** *word censored* thought they were so clever but every time we'd turn their team over because we had players who were more dedicated to the cause and would fight to the bitter end, allied to the undoubted skill we had, give me Rocastle over the likes of fucking hoddle, waddle and the other poncey twats they had at the time anyday. Awful to think that others now think of us in the same way that we thought of the lightweight twats then

[Champagne Charlie]

I thought moving away from Highbury was Dein/Wenger's brainchild?

And i'm sure it was Dein who lobbied strongly for us to play our "home" CL games at Wembley? Hmmm

And if memory serves Dein tried to brainwash everyone with moving to and renting Wembley...

And it was definitely Dein who introduced us to the fat ruskie...

It was certainly him what was at the forefront of the bond scheme. I wonder how well off those folks are what bought into the 10 year offer? I know a few folks who aren't. had to loan their ST cos they couldn't afford the bill. No mention of preferential rates for those who bought into the dream all those years ago.

But then he did bring us our most successful manager.

And I also miss the 'Old Girl'
I miss Percy Daltons
I miss the Band
I miss that woman who always sung at home games
I miss looking at the NB in full voice

[safcftm]

Villa, Sunderland and sp**s are all being artificially subsidised, like Bolton and Wigan. They are getting investment directly from board members/owners - something that we don't/have not had. It is us, the fans, who generate the funds available.

is the right answer. I cant speak about the other 2 clubs, but SAFC have got Ellis Short (american billionaire bloke) who has bought the club over and invested a shit load of his own money in it. Recently he converted some of his own money into a share, meaning that there are now 2 shares in SAFC and he owns them both. This is effectively like giving SAFC a loan although it is beneficial for us because, unlike with abramovich at chelsea etc, ellis short cant just say "i want the money i loaned you back", it is tied up in the club and the only way he can get his money back is if he sells the share for the same or more money than he "bought" it for. The only way this will happen is if the share is worth more due to the team performing better in the league, so he needs to continue investing.

Hence, he is bankrolling us at no risk to the club. This is great for us, but it is almost unique and not many clubs have someone who is effectively bankrolling the club at no risk to the club itself. Its good and risk free for us, but it is artificial. If FIFA brought in a rule where transfer fees and wages had to be a percentage of turnover, we'd be fucked

Also, you are looking at net spend. When we came up we had shit players (we still have some like!) and so when we sold them we got fuck all for them, and were having to buy better players in (gordon- 9 million, bent 10 million rising to 16). As a result it is not surprising that the net spend is more than at a big club who has assets that are worth similar amounts to the players they would hope to bring in

Also, in terms of money available to spend on players, there is the new ground factor. We moved into our ground a fair while ago and the big difference is that the emirates (according to the admittedly not always reliable wikipedia) cost £390m to construct. Somehow we managed to get the stadium of light constructed for £23m (obviously the land value is considerably less in sunderland)

I dont think it is too surprising that arsenal dont yet have big money available to spend, but i think the way they seemed to sell the move to the stadium (suggesting they would still be able to compete from the off for big money signings) is a bit off. I would assume the plan is to restrict investment in the playing squad now and, as long as CL money keeps coming in, pay off the stadium quickly and then aim to have a very successful, sustainable period.

Not sure about the exact figures regarding arsenals turnover etc, but it seems a relatively sensible (albeit frustrating for the fans) plan. Abramovich could get bored any time and fuck chelsea up, man united are already plunging into debt thanks to the glaziers- it looks like arsenal should have a brighter future than those two at least, in the medium to long term, if things continue as they are

[marcengels]

Villa, Sunderland and sp**s are all being artificially subsidised, like Bolton and Wigan. They are getting investment directly from board members/owners - something that we don't/have not had. It is us, the fans, who generate the funds available.

is the right answer. I cant speak about the other 2 clubs, but SAFC have got Ellis Short (american billionaire bloke) who has bought the club over and invested a shit load of his own money in it. Recently he converted some of his own money into a share, meaning that there are now 2 shares in SAFC and he owns them both. This is effectively like giving SAFC a loan although it is beneficial for us because, unlike with abramovich at chelsea etc, ellis short cant just say "i want the money i loaned you back", it is tied up in the club and the only way he can get his money back is if he sells the share for the same or more money than he "bought" it for. The only way this will happen is if the share is worth more due to the team performing better in the league, so he needs to continue investing.

Hence, he is bankrolling us at no risk to the club. This is great for us, but it is almost unique and not many clubs have someone who is effectively bankrolling the club at no risk to the club itself. Its good and risk free for us, but it is artificial. If FIFA brought in a rule where transfer fees and wages had to be a percentage of turnover, we'd be fucked

Also, you are looking at net spend. When we came up we had shit players (we still have some like!) and so when we sold them we got fuck all for them, and were having to buy better players in (gordon- 9 million, bent 10 million rising to 16). As a result it is not surprising that the net spend is more than at a big club who has assets that are worth similar amounts to the players they would hope to bring in

Also, in terms of money available to spend on players, there is the new ground factor. We moved into our ground a fair while ago and the big difference is that the emirates (according to the admittedly not always reliable wikipedia) cost £390m to construct. Somehow we managed to get the stadium of light constructed for £23m (obviously the land value is considerably less in sunderland)

I dont think it is too surprising that arsenal dont yet have big money available to spend, but i think the way they seemed to sell the move to the stadium (suggesting they would still be able to compete from the off for big money signings) is a bit off. I would assume the plan is to restrict investment in the playing squad now and, as long as CL money keeps coming in, pay off the stadium quickly and then aim to have a very successful, sustainable period.

Not sure about the exact figures regarding arsenals turnover etc, but it seems a relatively sensible (albeit frustrating for the fans) plan. Abramovich could get bored any time and fuck chelsea up, man united are already plunging into debt thanks to the glaziers- it looks like arsenal should have a brighter future than those two at least, in the medium to long term, if things continue as they are

Good answer safctm. A couple of things:

Some people feel that not even the money saved through high earning players leaving, or through money generated in player sales, is being used (or made available).

I think it all comes down to AW. The board are happy that he is there, in that they will use him for as long as they can in reducing the debt - as they know they would be under pressure from a new manager. I think that due to Wenger's personal rubber stamp and involvement in the stadium, that he feels he needs to be ultra cautious.

Finally, the cynics among us believe this is going the way of repaying the stadium quickly, making it more attractive for outside investors to buy the club, making a small fortune for the shareholders, and potentially lumping us with a man u/scouse situation.

[charliegeorgewhocanhitem]

I thought moving away from Highbury was Dein/Wenger's brainchild?

And i'm sure it was Dein who lobbied strongly for us to play our "home" CL games at Wembley? Hmmm

And if memory serves Dein tried to brainwash everyone with moving to and renting Wembley...

And it was definitely Dein who introduced us to the fat ruskie...

It was certainly him what was at the forefront of the bond scheme. I wonder how well off those folks are what bought into the 10 year offer? I know a few folks who aren't. had to loan their ST cos they couldn't afford the bill. No mention of preferential rates for those who bought into the dream all those years ago.

But then he did bring us our most successful manager.

And I also miss the 'Old Girl'
I miss Percy Daltons
I miss the Band
I miss that woman who always sung at home games
I miss looking at the NB in full voice

Dein would have preferred to stay and develop Highbury but once that was thwarted he certainly was at the forefront of the move to the spacebowl. Nobody who ran the club at the time can be absolved from blame and yes Dein had his faults and was very unpopular around the time of the bond scheme nonsense but the fact remains that he and Wenger worked well together when it came to team affairs and I don't think it's a coincidence that Wenger has seemed more and more clueless since they went their seperate ways.
I miss the green hut behind the NB
I miss the singing copper, Alex Morgan
I miss Avenell Road on a match day.
I miss the feeling and history of the place, hope the new tennants are being haunted by the angry ghost of Herbert Chapman
I miss the togetherness of being packed onto a crowded NB or CE terrace and the camaraderie and friendships that brought about. Never going to happen at the spacebowl unless you want to discuss the fucking x factor and how early you'll have to leave the game to catch the start of it with your new neighbour

[SteveO 35]

I thought moving away from Highbury was Dein/Wenger's brainchild?

And i'm sure it was Dein who lobbied strongly for us to play our "home" CL games at Wembley? Hmmm

And if memory serves Dein tried to brainwash everyone with moving to and renting Wembley...

And it was definitely Dein who introduced us to the fat ruskie...

It was certainly him what was at the forefront of the bond scheme. I wonder how well off those folks are what bought into the 10 year offer? I know a few folks who aren't. had to loan their ST cos they couldn't afford the bill. No mention of preferential rates for those who bought into the dream all those years ago.

But then he did bring us our most successful manager.

And I also miss the 'Old Girl'
I miss Percy Daltons
I miss the Band
I miss that woman who always sung at home games
I miss looking at the NB in full voice

For the record.......

Dein suggested Wembley because he was financially astute enough to recognise that following the experiment in the CL games that we had sufficient support to fill out the place and could have secured an operating lease on the facility which would not have saddled the club with a debt of more than 4x EBITDA; a debt that has since the club unable to compete with "England's elite", let alone "Europe's elite". Please tell me what exactly is wrong with that.....and please use rational arguments instead of "Arsenal playing in Brent, what a disgrace, never in my day" Hill Wood type arguments

He tripled the commercial revenue of the club

He has partnered with the Russian who has greater personal wealth than the dubious Kroenke and who has published a dossier that you could do with reading

And the bond scheme you refer to is generally the one where most investors sold their bonds downstream for about 10x the original price

[VforVictory]

Increased revenue is needed to meet the debt.

It leaves money over for transfers, but not the vast amounts that Chelsea and Man City have, that much is clear by transfer patterns since we moved stadium.

As for paying off debt ahead of schedule, it could be as you suggest, to work towards a share price increase, or at least to make a sale a more attractive proposition to potential buyers.
I guess that in a sale, a reduced debt is a more tangible factor than player value?

It can also just be good housekeeping, because the interest rates on the debt are now higher than interest rates on savings.

Can you name a time when rates on debt were lower than rates on savings? That is how banks make money!

Stadium loan was fixed rate.

So rising interest rates for savings can be higher than the loan repayment interest rates.

Right now interest rates are so low I can understand why the club seem to be paying the stadium loan off as fast as possible, despite the negative impact it has on transfers.