n6gooner wrote:bb - aw's inability (past and present) to manage strong characters is a separate point to the fact that, as a consequence, the door has always been closed to mentally strong ex-players who would have been able to influence the development (and loyalty) of new talent coming through
there's a big difference between prolonging a player's career and "turning it around". the latter suggests that when aw arrived adams, merson, etc were going downhill (on the pitch) whereas the former means they played for longer than they would have done had aw not come to afc. have you forgotten that ta5 was england skipper when aw arrived? hardly "washed up"
Before I say anything else can I just make clear that I'm not an AKB but admittedly maybe a rosetinter
I think I know what he's trying achieve, I think we all do maybe I'm just more patient than most altho I'm not known for my patience
there's no doubt he's made mistakes that have cost us (both as fans and as a club) dearly and some such as Augie, sorry mate, but you are the original
have been on his back for years!
I posted on a thread ages ago about it being obvious the balance of the team was unsuited to the current nature of the English game either thru lack of an English core identity, quality, character or just plain old physical strength or more likely a combination of all four but I still don't see how that demonstrates an inability or on AW's part to "handle strong characters", even tho I completely agree with the consensus that Cantona was the catalyst for the young Utd side, not only being hugely charismatic but according to Beckham an extremely diligent trainer!
Is Wenger misguided in his pursuit of an English Barca??? possibly, stubborn??? definitely, some may even say negligent and I couldn't dispute the evidence, but I can't think of a single player who AW froze out or constructively dismissed for anything other than football reasons which he could still easily do as countless other managers have done in dressing room power struggles even to players at the top of their game such as AF did to Nistlerooy and Stam???
Our player of the season and CAPTAIN, RvP even tho regarded as the brightest prospect in Dutch football winning their young player of the year award in 2002 was bought by AW for the bargain price of 2M a year later cos his manager van Marwijk couldn't handle him, so AW mentored him until that day he got himself sent off at Southampton and AW lost it on the touchline shouting at him for all to see as he walked down the tunnel and anyone who knows the player remembers that day as the turning point in his career so AW surely deserves the credit for the player he is today!
The major problem for us of course in the physical sense and one that can not be overestimated is that our players spend so much time on the treatment table that not only are we missing the few good players in a comparitively thin squad the first eleven hardly ever plays together and that in itself makes a massive difference, evidenced by the fact that the tightest defence in the league belongs to Newcastle cos their back 5 has been practically unchanged all season!
This why I posed the question before - would Barca win the EPL??? would they get the (over)protection they enjoy everywhere else how long before someone like Taylor or Shawcross crunched Messi??? would they be the same team if Xavi and Iniesta spent the entire winter on the treatment table, because of their relative diminutive stature?
AW came to England because he loves English football which is why he gets pissed off when pundits try and make out that he wants to outlaw tackling if he dares complain about us bein kicked off the park, the same hacks I might add who hailed Spain's victory over Holland's roughhouse approach to the WC final as a "victory for football"
However he probably does not appreciate the baggage that all too often comes with an English player as they are twice as expensive to buy and pay and yet there's hardly a week goes by without somethin in the papers about a homegrown player concerning drink, drugs, gambling, assault and all sorts of infidelity and sex scandals!
He transfer listed Merson cos he was seen as a lost cause which I don't think Merse has ever really forgiven us for, also Hartson partly for being overweight, Jermaine Pennant was moved on cos he was already on a warning from the club after he was disqualified for drink drivin, then while still banned (and pissed up again) wrapped a Merc, rumoured to be Ledley King's
round a lampost in the early hours one Sat mornin and done a runner, and it was a matchday to boot, Bentley was another Champagne Charlie not to mention AW basically blew 20M the day he bought Franny Jeffers and Richard Wright!
Even young Jack has been in the papers more recently than the rest of the squad put together gettin into scrapes after no doubt downing more booze in one nite than a professional track athlete would in an entire season, yet as we all know on the field he's the one player who can be relied on to do the shirt justice and has the guile and tenacity that we're cryin out for!
........... and therein lies AW's conundrum he is a purist, loves the flair and professionalism and price of the foreign player and it's also the transfer market he knows and probably preferred after getting his fingers burnt but the players he buys from all over the world do not or possibly cannot have the same camaraderie thru genuine friendship or affiliation with the club which homegrown players have naturally which is all to readily exposed when the going gets tough!
Therefore the cynics among us will say he knows the price of everything and the value of nothing, but you can see he's tryin to get English youngsters before they learn the way of the long ball and even longer nites, and teach them technique, to be comfortable on the ball which is one thing I don't think anyone on here disagrees about regarding the sad state of the English coaching system, and his vindication of course would be to have more Arsenal players in the national team than any other club after bein accused of xenophobia by the English media!
TH14 did a SKY interview recently in NY and admitted than when he first arrived in N5 he looked at Adams and Parlour etc. and thought to himself these guys are not athletes, yet come matchday their workrate and commitment put him to shame and it rubbed off on him, and it's true, for instance the L'pool vs Everton derby some of the foreign players getting stuck in as if they were born on the banks of the Mersey, no doubt influenced by Gerrard, Carragher et al and it is clear to see we have lost that
The current lack of English identity has left us wanting in the EPL but less so in Europe because it's a less physical game and those refs aren't afraid to send off an opposing player just cos he's famous and plays for England and our confidence is also shot which is fatal for the type of game we play, and we have displayed a worrying mentality where the players clearly
do not believe!
I was in the Diamond Club about 5 or 6 yrs ago when Bob Wilson opened the floor to questions for AW and I asked him would we ever be able to compete financially with ManU and he gave me one of his cryptic answers but when the guy after me asked him what he wanted to achieve with Arsenal without a moment's hesitation he looked the guy straight in the eye and said "win the Champion's League for the club" so again rightly or wrongly he no doubt is on a mission possibly to the detriment of our domestic league!
I don't think all is lost tho, we have at last a top drawer keeper, TV and Kos I think will eventually forge a partnership with Mert as back up, Sagna is as good as any right back in the league and young Jenkinson has impressed me, Gibbs is young but has potential (Cashley was always bein caught out until experience taught him positioning and when to bomb forward)
With Ramsey, Jack, Frimpong and Song we have the makings of an outstanding midfield cos I think Song while not necessarily capt. material is underrated and again this if they all stay fit and reach their full potential but it looks promising!
Upfront of course have RvP who's pure class, and glass, but maybe his luck will turn god knows he deserves it, in Gervinho we have someone who is strong, pacy, tricky, likes to take players on, is good at it and is not afraid to shoot and the Ox has again only potential but a lot of it - and he's English too so that's half a dozen homegrown players with real potential!
Shiiittt!!! just realised the length of this post
sorry lads it just came out, but I hope I'm forgiven, it has been a while, and for a Gooner not a very nice one at that
Just on your other point N6 why the quotation marks around "washed up" in reference to Adams??? I never did say nor would I, that Adams was finished as a player when AW took over
............
but would TA5 have scored the "that sums it all up" left footed volley after runnin the full length of the pitch goal against Everton to secure the league in AW's first full season in charge under GG or Rioch - I don't think so!
The importance of captain for most of us is that the person is a leader that team-mates will follow - he may not be the best player but is a player that can drag his team over the finishing line by bollocking them on occasions and cajoling them on other occasions and this is a point that wenger completely ignores or fails to grasp. The logical conclusion to draw from that is that wenger wants his players to listen to his voice and his voice only so he deals with that by refusing to sign any player that might offer any opinion that conflicts with his own
