Mikel Arteta, success or failure? - Merged thread.

[Clummo2019]

Like celebidee slag Jordan on a Saturday night I'm sandwiched right in the middle of this.....

I can see some improvement in our set up and in our spirit but nowhere near the turning a corner thing some are implying has been achieved.

We look harder to beat than under Dick's last 6 months but equally look less able to win than under Dick's first 6 months.

Our main problem is the playing squad. Too many are not good enough or past their best. Most top teams can carry one or two lesser players but not 4 or 5 starters that are not good enough.

What's the solution? Can't see the wigged avenger releasing 500million to buy in what we need and can't see 4 or 5 youth players stepping up and being capable of playing at that level.

Arteta (like Dick) has inherited an abattoir of a club 10 years in the building. That will not be rebuilt in a couple of months or even years.

The part highlighted in red is exactly what I have been saying - tiny improvements yes, but nowhere near what some are claiming

The part highlighted in blue is where I feel those that are championing arteta already are muddying the waters - yes only top teams can carry one or two lesser players, but Bournemouth, palace, leeds and Sheffield united are not top teams, and we absolutely should be beating those teams with the players we have available. Setting us up to be harder to beat against the chav and manure c.unts is fair enough, but then we have to be able to step up and take the game to the lesser teams that I mentioned, and he hasn't fixed that at all

But Augie sadly we are not a top team ourselves atm. We are a mid table team roughly at the same level as all but one of those that you mention.

BTW I'm certainly not championing Arteta in any way at all. I didn't want him first time around and didn't want him this time but it is what it is. There are enough small signs of improvement for me not to be so dismissive of him. The old adage in football is when you're trying to rebuild you first make yourselves harder to beat. I think we're heading in the right direction on that in spite of the sub standard personel at his disposal.

[Clash]

Like celebidee slag Jordan on a Saturday night I'm sandwiched right in the middle of this.....

I can see some improvement in our set up and in our spirit but nowhere near the turning a corner thing some are implying has been achieved.

We look harder to beat than under Dick's last 6 months but equally look less able to win than under Dick's first 6 months.

Our main problem is the playing squad. Too many are not good enough or past their best. Most top teams can carry one or two lesser players but not 4 or 5 starters that are not good enough.

What's the solution? Can't see the wigged avenger releasing 500million to buy in what we need and can't see 4 or 5 youth players stepping up and being capable of playing at that level.

Arteta (like Dick) has inherited an abattoir of a club 10 years in the building. That will not be rebuilt in a couple of months or even years.

Great post mate. This is absolutely spot on for me too!

A couple of areas have improved, some have remained the same or perhaps worsened slightly ... this is nowhere near enough to start digging out people for being too negative. Its way too soon for that and I can't do false optimism!

People are saying we need to accept the reality of our situation - well unfortunately the reality of our situation is still depressing and that's why the negativity will continue for the time being.

[OneBardGooner]

Yes, there are clear improvements, but it is going to be a long drawn out process, sad but effing true

I think Arteta has the goods to deliver if, IF he is given 3 seasons AND of course the financial backing to improve the team and dump the dead wood of which there is much.

Thing is there are those who Wallow in Negativity and who look for any excuse or reason (sometimes of their own mind's making) to slag someone off or berate another.

It is early days, but for me these early (slight) improvements just in the players effort and input tells me he Will do the job required. I mean how often have we seen our team come off the pitch whether winning, drawing or losing and know they have given their all and left everything on the pitch? Not there yet, but there is a marked difference, that difference is still not constant, but better than what we witnessed and had to endure before.

Player's like Martinelli, Genduozi (ish) and Saka can demonstrate to the old lags in the team - "This is how you do it and this is how to put in the effort"



#COYG

[augie]

Like celebidee slag Jordan on a Saturday night I'm sandwiched right in the middle of this.....

I can see some improvement in our set up and in our spirit but nowhere near the turning a corner thing some are implying has been achieved.

We look harder to beat than under Dick's last 6 months but equally look less able to win than under Dick's first 6 months.

Our main problem is the playing squad. Too many are not good enough or past their best. Most top teams can carry one or two lesser players but not 4 or 5 starters that are not good enough.

What's the solution? Can't see the wigged avenger releasing 500million to buy in what we need and can't see 4 or 5 youth players stepping up and being capable of playing at that level.

Arteta (like Dick) has inherited an abattoir of a club 10 years in the building. That will not be rebuilt in a couple of months or even years.

The part highlighted in red is exactly what I have been saying - tiny improvements yes, but nowhere near what some are claiming

The part highlighted in blue is where I feel those that are championing arteta already are muddying the waters - yes only top teams can carry one or two lesser players, but Bournemouth, palace, leeds and Sheffield united are not top teams, and we absolutely should be beating those teams with the players we have available. Setting us up to be harder to beat against the chav and manure c.unts is fair enough, but then we have to be able to step up and take the game to the lesser teams that I mentioned, and he hasn't fixed that at all

But Augie sadly we are not a top team ourselves atm. We are a mid table team roughly at the same level as all but one of those that you mention.

BTW I'm certainly not championing Arteta in any way at all. I didn't want him first time around and didn't want him this time but it is what it is. There are enough small signs of improvement for me not to be so dismissive of him. The old adage in football is when you're trying to rebuild you first make yourselves harder to beat. I think we're heading in the right direction on that in spite of the sub standard personel at his disposal.

We are not within a million miles off the top clubs but lets be honest, on paper our players are streets ahead of the likes of the 4 teams I mentioned - ability is only a part of any player and teams usefulness, but it is every managers job to get the maximum performance of every player under his control, and I cant remember the last time we can say we had that (certainly not in the last decade or so). We are comparing our players to our teams of old, but comparing our players to the teams we are now facing would give a better reflection of where we should be - I think most will acknowledge that we should be doing a lot better than we are (that's why emery was sacked), but doesn't that say that we have players better than those teams around us ?

[flash gunner]

Worst start as manager in the history of Arsenal

[rodders999]

Worst start as manager in the history of Arsenal

Worst post EVER

[OneBardGooner]

Worst start as manager in the history of Arsenal

Worst post EVER

Best reply to the Worst Post Ever!

[goonersid]

Arteta may or may not prove to be a success.
The hypocrisy of some on here though is astounding!
Arteta has inherited both Wenger and Emery’s mess!
Many now criticising Arteta, are the same people who deemed Emery blameless for last seasons failure, despite him bringing in 5 or so players, therefore only inheriting Wengers mess!
Not one single player in this squad has in anyway been scouted or recommended by Arteta. Yet he is slowly restoring some pride and self respect.
Top 4 is still possible, but if, over the next 3 or 4 lge games the gap gets bigger, but we are out of relegation danger, then he needs to prioritze the cup competitions for the remainder of the season.

[augie]

Arteta may or may not prove to be a success.
The hypocrisy of some on here though is astounding!
Arteta has inherited both Wenger and Emery’s mess!
Many now criticising Arteta, are the same people who deemed Emery blameless for last seasons failure, despite him bringing in 5 or so players, therefore only inheriting Wengers mess!
Not one single player in this squad has in anyway been scouted or recommended by Arteta. Yet he is slowly restoring some pride and self respect.
Top 4 is still possible, but if, over the next 3 or 4 lge games the gap gets bigger, but we are out of relegation danger, then he needs to prioritze the cup competitions for the remainder of the season.

You need to get yourself to an AA meeting sid - seriously I didn't think that there are drugs or alcohol that strong, that can make a guy that deluded

On a serious level though, emery wasnt blameless even though the players def sold him down the river - the team selection at home to palace last season when top 4 was there for us, the team selection and tactics away to the victims this season, are just two of the fcuk ups that spring to mind, but that doesnt deflect away from arteta's start either. He has won ONE league game since he became manager - just think of the opposition he has faced in those league games for a minute, and then tell me that he has done well.
Lets look at the players that have been brought in during emery's tenure - torreira, leno, douzi, lichsteiner, luiz, Ceballos, martinelli, Tierney and you tell me overall what the success rate has been with those players. Personally I am hesitant to give emery the credit for those transfers though, cos I still believe that we have a team above the manager who now identif and do the buying of players.

Anyway if we are talking about hypocrisy sid, how about you lay your cards on the table - how long into emery's reign before you turned against him ? You turned quicker than sour milk, even though you (and me) were one of the biggest campaigners to get rid of wenger cos he had the club in such a mess. I didn't want arteta. I still don't think he is the man for the job, but all I have been saying (and continue to say) is that some fans are stretching in their praise of arteta - that isn't being critical of arteta as much as it is critical of the fans. There are small signs of improvement, but we cant escape the fact that he has one league win in an easy run of fixtures, so lets be realistic when assessing this progress

[Jock Gooner]

I've maybe missed these posts claiming "major" improvements or "turning points" under Arteta

I have read a number of posts acknowledging some improvements in areas albeit still inconsistent and frequently crap.

Could somebody enlighten me please.

[xisstential]

Arteta may or may not prove to be a success.
The hypocrisy of some on here though is astounding!
Arteta has inherited both Wenger and Emery’s mess!
Many now criticising Arteta, are the same people who deemed Emery blameless for last seasons failure, despite him bringing in 5 or so players, therefore only inheriting Wengers mess!
Not one single player in this squad has in anyway been scouted or recommended by Arteta. Yet he is slowly restoring some pride and self respect.
Top 4 is still possible, but if, over the next 3 or 4 lge games the gap gets bigger, but we are out of relegation danger, then he needs to prioritze the cup competitions for the remainder of the season.

Both United & the Chavs are really poor with sub standard managers...….both whom I expect to be fired. The patience with the much loved former players, turned managers, will eventually run out with Ole first, probably this season, Fatty at the Chavs will follow at a later stage. The tots are no better and Mourhino's tenure will also end badly, sooner rather than later as it will no doubt be acrimonious and yet again his position will become untenable..

Having said all that, there is still not a chance in hell we will make Top 4. I still see Arteta outlasting the aforementioned managers though. We'll have to be rooted in the bottom 3 for weeks on end before our board took action and we are not falling into that zone. Not yet anyway.

[goonersid]

Arteta may or may not prove to be a success.
The hypocrisy of some on here though is astounding!
Arteta has inherited both Wenger and Emery’s mess!
Many now criticising Arteta, are the same people who deemed Emery blameless for last seasons failure, despite him bringing in 5 or so players, therefore only inheriting Wengers mess!
Not one single player in this squad has in anyway been scouted or recommended by Arteta. Yet he is slowly restoring some pride and self respect.
Top 4 is still possible, but if, over the next 3 or 4 lge games the gap gets bigger, but we are out of relegation danger, then he needs to prioritze the cup competitions for the remainder of the season.

You need to get yourself to an AA meeting sid - seriously I didn't think that there are drugs or alcohol that strong, that can make a guy that deluded

On a serious level though, emery wasnt blameless even though the players def sold him down the river - the team selection at home to palace last season when top 4 was there for us, the team selection and tactics away to the victims this season, are just two of the fcuk ups that spring to mind, but that doesnt deflect away from arteta's start either. He has won ONE league game since he became manager - just think of the opposition he has faced in those league games for a minute, and then tell me that he has done well.
Lets look at the players that have been brought in during emery's tenure - torreira, leno, douzi, lichsteiner, luiz, Ceballos, martinelli, Tierney and you tell me overall what the success rate has been with those players. Personally I am hesitant to give emery the credit for those transfers though, cos I still believe that we have a team above the manager who now identif and do the buying of players.

Anyway if we are talking about hypocrisy sid, how about you lay your cards on the table - how long into emery's reign before you turned against him ? You turned quicker than sour milk, even though you (and me) were one of the biggest campaigners to get rid of wenger cos he had the club in such a mess. I didn't want arteta. I still don't think he is the man for the job, but all I have been saying (and continue to say) is that some fans are stretching in their praise of arteta - that isn't being critical of arteta as much as it is critical of the fans. There are small signs of improvement, but we cant escape the fact that he has one league win in an easy run of fixtures, so lets be realistic when assessing this progress

I wouldn’t say I turned quicker than sour milk, I did have reservations after a few months and always said, that 6 months was long enough to judge his ability, on which imo he was already being found wanting.
Agreed, our results thus far with Arteta, aren’t great, but you can see a strategy and one which he is try to carry out with a disheartened squad which is entirely of others making!
If come next season, Arteta has added to the squad, but not dispensed with the likes of Mustafi and Xhaka? Then unless results are good, I will make judgement on him!
As for now, top 4 is possible, although unlikely, thats why he should prioritize afrer the next few games!

[Skooner]

I have to agree that although still glaring issues and results not being there the team have in general looked more organised and players appear to have an idea what their role is, which they didn't under Emery. And we have been working/pressing harder than before which is taking its toll on fitness levels which will take a while to correct. All of that was less true in the first 30 minutes against Chelsea and then weirdly got better after going down to 10 men.

We still have plenty of injuries at the back as well. Next seasons back line will be very telling, if everyone is fit you may well be seeing a back line of Bellerin, Chambers (Holding until Chambers is fit), Saliba and Tierney. If the likes of Mustafi/Luiz are getting a regular look in then I'll be a bit more concerned about Arteta's decision making.

[augie]

Arteta may or may not prove to be a success.
The hypocrisy of some on here though is astounding!
Arteta has inherited both Wenger and Emery’s mess!
Many now criticising Arteta, are the same people who deemed Emery blameless for last seasons failure, despite him bringing in 5 or so players, therefore only inheriting Wengers mess!
Not one single player in this squad has in anyway been scouted or recommended by Arteta. Yet he is slowly restoring some pride and self respect.
Top 4 is still possible, but if, over the next 3 or 4 lge games the gap gets bigger, but we are out of relegation danger, then he needs to prioritze the cup competitions for the remainder of the season.

You need to get yourself to an AA meeting sid - seriously I didn't think that there are drugs or alcohol that strong, that can make a guy that deluded

On a serious level though, emery wasnt blameless even though the players def sold him down the river - the team selection at home to palace last season when top 4 was there for us, the team selection and tactics away to the victims this season, are just two of the fcuk ups that spring to mind, but that doesnt deflect away from arteta's start either. He has won ONE league game since he became manager - just think of the opposition he has faced in those league games for a minute, and then tell me that he has done well.
Lets look at the players that have been brought in during emery's tenure - torreira, leno, douzi, lichsteiner, luiz, Ceballos, martinelli, Tierney and you tell me overall what the success rate has been with those players. Personally I am hesitant to give emery the credit for those transfers though, cos I still believe that we have a team above the manager who now identif and do the buying of players.

Anyway if we are talking about hypocrisy sid, how about you lay your cards on the table - how long into emery's reign before you turned against him ? You turned quicker than sour milk, even though you (and me) were one of the biggest campaigners to get rid of wenger cos he had the club in such a mess. I didn't want arteta. I still don't think he is the man for the job, but all I have been saying (and continue to say) is that some fans are stretching in their praise of arteta - that isn't being critical of arteta as much as it is critical of the fans. There are small signs of improvement, but we cant escape the fact that he has one league win in an easy run of fixtures, so lets be realistic when assessing this progress

I wouldn’t say I turned quicker than sour milk, I did have reservations after a few months and always said, that 6 months was long enough to judge his ability, on which imo he was already being found wanting.
Agreed, our results thus far with Arteta, aren’t great, but you can see a strategy and one which he is try to carry out with a disheartened squad which is entirely of others making!
If come next season, Arteta has added to the squad, but not dispensed with the likes of Mustafi and Xhaka? Then unless results are good, I will make judgement on him!
As for now, top 4 is possible, although unlikely, thats why he should prioritize afrer the next few games!

Sid, disheartened squad not of arteta's making - absolutely agree with that, and that was the main reason why emery HAD to go. What I will say again though, is a lot of the reason why that squad was unharmonious was that senior players made a real concerted effort to destabilise the manager and force the change they got - the fact that they have got a manager that they appear to be behind, makes it all the more frustrating that results wise we haven't improved despite them getting their way.

On a more general point, do you believe that our managers (be it emery, arteta or whoever) is in control of our transfer business ? Personally I think that post wenger the club decided to reign in the amount of power allowed to our manager, and instead gave the responsibility to people above the manager. Last season I felt that by and large mislintat decided our transfer business, but at the same time I looked at the purchases of luiz and guendouzi and think that emery picked them from his psg days. I look at purchases like martinelli and Ceballos and feel that they were purchases by edu and sanelhi, so I am wondering how much credit or blame our managers are entitled when our signings either succeed or fail

[goonersid]

Arteta may or may not prove to be a success.
The hypocrisy of some on here though is astounding!
Arteta has inherited both Wenger and Emery’s mess!
Many now criticising Arteta, are the same people who deemed Emery blameless for last seasons failure, despite him bringing in 5 or so players, therefore only inheriting Wengers mess!
Not one single player in this squad has in anyway been scouted or recommended by Arteta. Yet he is slowly restoring some pride and self respect.
Top 4 is still possible, but if, over the next 3 or 4 lge games the gap gets bigger, but we are out of relegation danger, then he needs to prioritze the cup competitions for the remainder of the season.

You need to get yourself to an AA meeting sid - seriously I didn't think that there are drugs or alcohol that strong, that can make a guy that deluded

On a serious level though, emery wasnt blameless even though the players def sold him down the river - the team selection at home to palace last season when top 4 was there for us, the team selection and tactics away to the victims this season, are just two of the fcuk ups that spring to mind, but that doesnt deflect away from arteta's start either. He has won ONE league game since he became manager - just think of the opposition he has faced in those league games for a minute, and then tell me that he has done well.
Lets look at the players that have been brought in during emery's tenure - torreira, leno, douzi, lichsteiner, luiz, Ceballos, martinelli, Tierney and you tell me overall what the success rate has been with those players. Personally I am hesitant to give emery the credit for those transfers though, cos I still believe that we have a team above the manager who now identif and do the buying of players.

Anyway if we are talking about hypocrisy sid, how about you lay your cards on the table - how long into emery's reign before you turned against him ? You turned quicker than sour milk, even though you (and me) were one of the biggest campaigners to get rid of wenger cos he had the club in such a mess. I didn't want arteta. I still don't think he is the man for the job, but all I have been saying (and continue to say) is that some fans are stretching in their praise of arteta - that isn't being critical of arteta as much as it is critical of the fans. There are small signs of improvement, but we cant escape the fact that he has one league win in an easy run of fixtures, so lets be realistic when assessing this progress

I wouldn’t say I turned quicker than sour milk, I did have reservations after a few months and always said, that 6 months was long enough to judge his ability, on which imo he was already being found wanting.
Agreed, our results thus far with Arteta, aren’t great, but you can see a strategy and one which he is try to carry out with a disheartened squad which is entirely of others making!
If come next season, Arteta has added to the squad, but not dispensed with the likes of Mustafi and Xhaka? Then unless results are good, I will make judgement on him!
As for now, top 4 is possible, although unlikely, thats why he should prioritize afrer the next few games!

Sid, disheartened squad not of arteta's making - absolutely agree with that, and that was the main reason why emery HAD to go. What I will say again though, is a lot of the reason why that squad was unharmonious was that senior players made a real concerted effort to destabilise the manager and force the change they got - the fact that they have got a manager that they appear to be behind, makes it all the more frustrating that results wise we haven't improved despite them getting their way.

On a more general point, do you believe that our managers (be it emery, arteta or whoever) is in control of our transfer business ? Personally I think that post wenger the club decided to reign in the amount of power allowed to our manager, and instead gave the responsibility to people above the manager. Last season I felt that by and large mislintat decided our transfer business, but at the same time I looked at the purchases of luiz and guendouzi and think that emery picked them from his psg days. I look at purchases like martinelli and Ceballos and feel that they were purchases by edu and sanelhi, so I am wondering how much credit or blame our managers are entitled when our signings either succeed or fail

I agree they don’t have total control on transfers, but I don’t believe that they would have no input or that they wouldn’t recommend players or have some sort of final say ie “no fucking way don’t sign that clown”
As you pointed out, Emery probably played a major part in signing Luiz, I also believe he signed that swiss pensioner who’s name has eluded me.
So yes I do believe they deserve some criticism when it goes wrong.
Don’t get me wrong Augie, I’m not an Arteta fan, but equally I’m not a critic either, because I don’t think he has done anything badly wrong since taking over(bar maybe still persisting with mustafi and xhaka) although xhaka has been slightly better of late and I mean slightly.
I also think he has a big shout to make soon on Ozil, as he’s still simply not performing.