Mikel Arteta, success or failure? - Merged thread.

[DB10GOONER]

Ernie you listed a load of players (Bellerin Luiz, AMN Mustafi Xhaka Elneny Willock Nelson Willian Pepe and Nketiah), but with the exception of bellend, every single one of those players is a back-up/squad player. If you want to compare players, try comparing our first choice players (I listed them above), with their first choice players and then try and make an argument as to how in gods green earth you would think that they have a better team than we do.
You rightly point out that they have a shit manager, but if we had a better manager than pep's cone boy we would be country miles ahead of them

Augie, Xhakatard is the first name on the team sheet EVERY game. Also debatable are Luiz and Maitland-Bendtner and Pillock who all have played more games than your normal squad / back up player..... I'd put us on about level with the chavs at present: a shit manager, a few decent players, and a whole pile of shit ones. Combining the best of both squads you could probably build a top 6 team at best - with a choice of shit manager.

[GoonerMuzz]

Ernie you listed a load of players (Bellerin Luiz, AMN Mustafi Xhaka Elneny Willock Nelson Willian Pepe and Nketiah), but with the exception of bellend, every single one of those players is a back-up/squad player. If you want to compare players, try comparing our first choice players (I listed them above), with their first choice players and then try and make an argument as to how in gods green earth you would think that they have a better team than we do.
You rightly point out that they have a shit manager, but if we had a better manager than pep's cone boy we would be country miles ahead of them

Augie, those listed are not really squad player though are they, with the exception of Mustafi and AMN the rest have played fairly regularly this season..... christ I'm not even sure who our 'first' team is this season the majority are so bad...... it's fine margins in terms of squad capability, if you're arguing a better manager could get more out of our squad then by the same logic a Allegri or Simeone could get more out of the Chavs too.

I have to repeat that I think our squad is woeful, and one of the worst I can remember even with the potential shown by the youngsters. We have no 'good' players, the bedrock that excellent teams are built around, not the world beating league players such as DB, TH, IW, TA etc but the stalwarts like Romford, Dixon, Petit, Gilberto those in their prime who did most things well without being the greatest, most of our current squad are either potential future players, has been over the hills or never will be's where are out 25-28 year old good solid players......

[augie]

Ok lads, let me put it another way - if we pick what should be our best 11 and their best 11, then we are streets better than them ...... it isnt even close. They continue to do the wenger school of recruitment ....... let's buy all attacking players whilst our defense is absolute dogshit. Even the attacking players they have bought (werner, pulisic, havertz) wouldnt get into our team ahead of saka, martinelli, laca and auba (as poor as he is playing).

[GoonerMuzz]

Now that i can discuss if only i could work out exactly who our best 11 is supposed to be and on what criteria we are basing it

[SteveO 35]

So here we are approaching the 'halfway' match against the bar codes, Arteta's 58th match as manager and where has it taken us? A slightly lower win rate than Emery, significantly higher loss rate and 11th in the table.

No trophy should ever be discounted and he deserves huge credit for the FA Cup last season given the matches we had to win to land the trophy - but for me it is a huge price to pay for what is undoubtedly a massive regression

The football is the most dire I can remember since the mid-90s, we've had our worst start to a season in 45 years, and whilst much has been made of the recent revival the last two performances against Newcastle in the cup, and Palace on Thursday, brought zero goals in 90 minutes against two teams who just sit and offer nothing........and there hasn't been any change to the balance of our squad to address that problem. For a man who speaks about "transitions" as often as he does, how he fails to see that every single central midfielder we have slows the game down to a walking pace is beyond me - I make us the easiest team to defend against. We don't have an aerial threat, we don't currently have a striker busting a gut to get on the end of crosses and we are relying on a kid in ESR to create everything through the middle.

If he fails to address the key issues in the January window - and if he's lucky enough to get a 4th window - then we will continue sliding further down the table

We are far better against the big teams who need to attack us, and we won the FA Cup. They are the only upsides as I see it

[GoonerMuzz]

So here we are approaching the 'halfway' match against the bar codes, Arteta's 58th match as manager and where has it taken us? A slightly lower win rate than Emery, significantly higher loss rate and 11th in the table.

No trophy should ever be discounted and he deserves huge credit for the FA Cup last season given the matches we had to win to land the trophy - but for me it is a huge price to pay for what is undoubtedly a massive regression

The football is the most dire I can remember since the mid-90s, we've had our worst start to a season in 45 years, and whilst much has been made of the recent revival the last two performances against Newcastle in the cup, and Palace on Thursday, brought zero goals in 90 minutes against two teams who just sit and offer nothing........and there hasn't been any change to the balance of our squad to address that problem. For a man who speaks about "transitions" as often as he does, how he fails to see that every single central midfielder we have slows the game down to a walking pace is beyond me - I make us the easiest team to defend against. We don't have an aerial threat, we don't currently have a striker busting a gut to get on the end of crosses and we are relying on a kid in ESR to create everything through the middle.

If he fails to address the key issues in the January window - and if he's lucky enough to get a 4th window - then we will continue sliding further down the table

We are far better against the big teams who need to attack us, and we won the FA Cup. They are the only upsides as I see it

Completely agree with the assessment of how we're playing currently but seriously stop beating the Emery was doing better drum, Emery was taking us backwards when he was sacked, he was not holding his own or improving things therefore you cannot compare the two. For all we know things could have ended up worse with Emery in charge than they did finally with Arteta last season, you cant prove a negative.

What I will say is Arteta should never have been appointed to a team that was getting worse week in week out and that had not seen any improvement under the caretaker manager, a team which had serious deficiencies in the squad, the clubs management and the ownership of the club, but he was appointed because of exactly who and what he is, a young inexperienced easily malleable coach who is less likely to rock the boat or to ask for too much.

Maybe Arteta should have been wise enough to realise the job was too much for him but in all honesty how many people would have turned down the opportunity to manage Arsenal in his position and with his limited knowledge and experience, quite simply he was naive and overconfident of his own abilities.

Whether we want to admit it or not a lot of the issues we have currently stem from before Arteta's appointment the problem is he has been unable because of his inexperience to address or resolve them, the long and the short is he needs to be replaced by experience and by someone with a strong will and who is ruthless, unfortunately that is exactly the type of Manager the Kroenkes, Vinai and in my opinion especially Edu dont want.

[begeegs]

I think that Arteta suffers a bit from what Emery did which is not having the players to play the system that they want. Not that it is an excuse as you are supposed to adapt to play a system which suits those players. We should be better off than we are now and at any other big club, they'd have sacked Arteta. Some of his football is turgid and that is especially true given that he is trying to play quick passing, quick transitions, etc. I think that you have to give him more time given that there were some green shoots over the XMas period and in a sense, I am just resigned to that happening regardless.

This summer, I'd like to see him sell Auba. I know that it won't be popular here, but I don't see the point of him in this system. I also don't see him selling Xhaka either. Once you get rid of Ceballos, you are left with Elneny and Partey. You'd have to promote a player or two and/or include Willock in that (I hope not - he will never be good enough).

Any way that you look at it, it will be a big summer for Arteta. I think that with some of those academy players breaking through this year that perhaps he could and should adopt a Red Bull Leipzig model and invest in talented young players if he wants this high energy system. If anything, those fat contracts for both Willian and Auba (and Ozil) would show the folly and huge risk/reward with ageing veterans.

[SteveO 35]

So here we are approaching the 'halfway' match against the bar codes, Arteta's 58th match as manager and where has it taken us? A slightly lower win rate than Emery, significantly higher loss rate and 11th in the table.

No trophy should ever be discounted and he deserves huge credit for the FA Cup last season given the matches we had to win to land the trophy - but for me it is a huge price to pay for what is undoubtedly a massive regression

The football is the most dire I can remember since the mid-90s, we've had our worst start to a season in 45 years, and whilst much has been made of the recent revival the last two performances against Newcastle in the cup, and Palace on Thursday, brought zero goals in 90 minutes against two teams who just sit and offer nothing........and there hasn't been any change to the balance of our squad to address that problem. For a man who speaks about "transitions" as often as he does, how he fails to see that every single central midfielder we have slows the game down to a walking pace is beyond me - I make us the easiest team to defend against. We don't have an aerial threat, we don't currently have a striker busting a gut to get on the end of crosses and we are relying on a kid in ESR to create everything through the middle.

If he fails to address the key issues in the January window - and if he's lucky enough to get a 4th window - then we will continue sliding further down the table

We are far better against the big teams who need to attack us, and we won the FA Cup. They are the only upsides as I see it

Completely agree with the assessment of how we're playing currently but seriously stop beating the Emery was doing better drum, Emery was taking us backwards when he was sacked, he was not holding his own or improving things therefore you cannot compare the two. For all we know things could have ended up worse with Emery in charge than they did finally with Arteta last season, you cant prove a negative.

What I will say is Arteta should never have been appointed to a team that was getting worse week in week out and that had not seen any improvement under the caretaker manager, a team which had serious deficiencies in the squad, the clubs management and the ownership of the club, but he was appointed because of exactly who and what he is, a young inexperienced easily malleable coach who is less likely to rock the boat or to ask for too much.

Maybe Arteta should have been wise enough to realise the job was too much for him but in all honesty how many people would have turned down the opportunity to manage Arsenal in his position and with his limited knowledge and experience, quite simply he was naive and overconfident of his own abilities.

Whether we want to admit it or not a lot of the issues we have currently stem from before Arteta's appointment the problem is he has been unable because of his inexperience to address or resolve them, the long and the short is he needs to be replaced by experience and by someone with a strong will and who is ruthless, unfortunately that is exactly the type of Manager the Kroenkes, Vinai and in my opinion especially Edu dont want.

I don't blame him for taking the job at all - any of us would wouldn't we, even if we knew deep down there were question marks over our respective experience? Your assessment is spot on - this is not a job for the faint hearted or the inexperienced. I think it must be one of the toughest jobs in English football right now. There is a bloated squad, full of shit that nobody wants, which needs trimming down and in the meantime those players won't be happy. We aren't a CL team and haven't been for some time so the very top players will not be drawn to playing for us. Wenger and Kroenke between also allowed a decade of decline to set in - a 4th place is everything culture which could be seen in all our teams from 2008 onwards. Don't reach for the stars, settle for something less exciting with less investment. in the meantime numerous other clubs owners ambitions overtook our own

For all of those reasons, this job needs someone with ideally 10 years+ experience - experience of dealing with conflict, turning around a losers mentality and managing upwards to an owner who will disappoint you at every turn. Emery wasn't the right man for that role, but far better suited than Freddie and in my opinion Arteta too. I wouldn't have had Emery in my top 3 choices for the role when it became available. Carlo Ancelotti would have been a better bet. Antonio Conte would be better, so too Rafa Benitez, Simeone, Allegri and probably a good few more.

My only point about Emery - rather than beat the drum that he was some kind of genius - is that whichever way you look at it, we haven't kicked on since he left. He left us in 8th and I agree that his last 10 games or so weren't up to the desired standard. However, with very exceptions I haven't seen anything since in the PL that makes me think we've arrested that decline and moving in the right direction - if anything the midfield is even weaker and the football more boring to watch. Arteta has made us harder to score against though - there is no doubt about that - but seemingly at the expense of everything else

Max Allegri to sort this mess out for me - but I don't see that happening. We've got a bloke in charge living the dream, who won't rock the boat and be over demanding, which is exactly what Kroenke wants

[goonersid]

So here we are approaching the 'halfway' match against the bar codes, Arteta's 58th match as manager and where has it taken us? A slightly lower win rate than Emery, significantly higher loss rate and 11th in the table.

No trophy should ever be discounted and he deserves huge credit for the FA Cup last season given the matches we had to win to land the trophy - but for me it is a huge price to pay for what is undoubtedly a massive regression

The football is the most dire I can remember since the mid-90s, we've had our worst start to a season in 45 years, and whilst much has been made of the recent revival the last two performances against Newcastle in the cup, and Palace on Thursday, brought zero goals in 90 minutes against two teams who just sit and offer nothing........and there hasn't been any change to the balance of our squad to address that problem. For a man who speaks about "transitions" as often as he does, how he fails to see that every single central midfielder we have slows the game down to a walking pace is beyond me - I make us the easiest team to defend against. We don't have an aerial threat, we don't currently have a striker busting a gut to get on the end of crosses and we are relying on a kid in ESR to create everything through the middle.

If he fails to address the key issues in the January window - and if he's lucky enough to get a 4th window - then we will continue sliding further down the table

We are far better against the big teams who need to attack us, and we won the FA Cup. They are the only upsides as I see it

Completely agree with the assessment of how we're playing currently but seriously stop beating the Emery was doing better drum, Emery was taking us backwards when he was sacked, he was not holding his own or improving things therefore you cannot compare the two. For all we know things could have ended up worse with Emery in charge than they did finally with Arteta last season, you cant prove a negative.

What I will say is Arteta should never have been appointed to a team that was getting worse week in week out and that had not seen any improvement under the caretaker manager, a team which had serious deficiencies in the squad, the clubs management and the ownership of the club, but he was appointed because of exactly who and what he is, a young inexperienced easily malleable coach who is less likely to rock the boat or to ask for too much.

Maybe Arteta should have been wise enough to realise the job was too much for him but in all honesty how many people would have turned down the opportunity to manage Arsenal in his position and with his limited knowledge and experience, quite simply he was naive and overconfident of his own abilities.

Whether we want to admit it or not a lot of the issues we have currently stem from before Arteta's appointment the problem is he has been unable because of his inexperience to address or resolve them, the long and the short is he needs to be replaced by experience and by someone with a strong will and who is ruthless, unfortunately that is exactly the type of Manager the Kroenkes, Vinai and in my opinion especially Edu dont want.

I don't blame him for taking the job at all - any of us would wouldn't we, even if we knew deep down there were question marks over our respective experience? Your assessment is spot on - this is not a job for the faint hearted or the inexperienced. I think it must be one of the toughest jobs in English football right now. There is a bloated squad, full of shit that nobody wants, which needs trimming down and in the meantime those players won't be happy. We aren't a CL team and haven't been for some time so the very top players will not be drawn to playing for us. Wenger and Kroenke between also allowed a decade of decline to set in - a 4th place is everything culture which could be seen in all our teams from 2008 onwards. Don't reach for the stars, settle for something less exciting with less investment. in the meantime numerous other clubs owners ambitions overtook our own

For all of those reasons, this job needs someone with ideally 10 years+ experience - experience of dealing with conflict, turning around a losers mentality and managing upwards to an owner who will disappoint you at every turn. Emery wasn't the right man for that role, but far better suited than Freddie and in my opinion Arteta too. I wouldn't have had Emery in my top 3 choices for the role when it became available. Carlo Ancelotti would have been a better bet. Antonio Conte would be better, so too Rafa Benitez, Simeone, Allegri and probably a good few more.

My only point about Emery - rather than beat the drum that he was some kind of genius - is that whichever way you look at it, we haven't kicked on since he left. He left us in 8th and I agree that his last 10 games or so weren't up to the desired standard. However, with very exceptions I haven't seen anything since in the PL that makes me think we've arrested that decline and moving in the right direction - if anything the midfield is even weaker and the football more boring to watch. Arteta has made us harder to score against though - there is no doubt about that - but seemingly at the expense of everything else

Max Allegri to sort this mess out for me - but I don't see that happening. We've got a bloke in charge living the dream, who won't rock the boat and be over demanding, which is exactly what Kroenke wants

Agree with most of that Stevo, but wont rock the boat??
Ozil, Guendopy, that bloke who was "scouting" I think "rocking the boat" has been something he hasnt shied from.
He's still a few bad results away from being back under serious pressure.
And I don't think he is the answer, but there's still a possibility I could be wrong.
I know you rated emery more than arteta, but Stevo, he simply didnt have the balls for the job, just as he didnt at PSG, he allowed the players to undermine him, the captaincy "vote" ?
Sorry for the lack of punctuation, I'm a bit pissed and my micro Sunday dinner has just pinged

[Nos89]

Look where Everton as a like for like comparison.

Arteta has a system he wants to play. The kids have shown how eefective it can be against chavs, brighton and west brom. However, palace, burnley, villa have shown how easy it is to defend. Arteta can coach them to death, however, he needs to have options. Currently, he subs like for like as options are limited. Like city when you haven't got a fit and scoring striker, the system of play fails. Since he dropped the FA cup, Auba hasn't been in any form at all. Lacazette has found a bit of form but we needs goals from saka, pepe, and vitally someone from our midfield to score. Willock gets in plenty of goalscoring positions but he cannot finish. Essentially, we need to find a player that not only has willocks energy, timing of runs into the box, but can score as well. Unless of course, willock starts hitting the back of the net, which, unfortunately I don't think he can do.

[gooner265]

Whatever you think of him you have to give Arteta credit for having the balls to get rid of Ozil. I don't think he would have gone if he had registered him and played him in the euro Cup, not many managers would have done that.
I just hope he's as ruthless in the summer , at least 3 of our deadwood have gone this month a promising start.

[augie]

Whatever you think of him you have to give Arteta credit for having the balls to get rid of Ozil. I don't think he would have gone if he had registered him and played him in the euro Cup, not many managers would have done that.
I just hope he's as ruthless in the summer , at least 3 of our deadwood have gone this month a promising start.

It was arteta that brought him back into the team in the first place ffs

[SteveO 35]

So here we are approaching the 'halfway' match against the bar codes, Arteta's 58th match as manager and where has it taken us? A slightly lower win rate than Emery, significantly higher loss rate and 11th in the table.

No trophy should ever be discounted and he deserves huge credit for the FA Cup last season given the matches we had to win to land the trophy - but for me it is a huge price to pay for what is undoubtedly a massive regression

The football is the most dire I can remember since the mid-90s, we've had our worst start to a season in 45 years, and whilst much has been made of the recent revival the last two performances against Newcastle in the cup, and Palace on Thursday, brought zero goals in 90 minutes against two teams who just sit and offer nothing........and there hasn't been any change to the balance of our squad to address that problem. For a man who speaks about "transitions" as often as he does, how he fails to see that every single central midfielder we have slows the game down to a walking pace is beyond me - I make us the easiest team to defend against. We don't have an aerial threat, we don't currently have a striker busting a gut to get on the end of crosses and we are relying on a kid in ESR to create everything through the middle.

If he fails to address the key issues in the January window - and if he's lucky enough to get a 4th window - then we will continue sliding further down the table

We are far better against the big teams who need to attack us, and we won the FA Cup. They are the only upsides as I see it

Completely agree with the assessment of how we're playing currently but seriously stop beating the Emery was doing better drum, Emery was taking us backwards when he was sacked, he was not holding his own or improving things therefore you cannot compare the two. For all we know things could have ended up worse with Emery in charge than they did finally with Arteta last season, you cant prove a negative.

What I will say is Arteta should never have been appointed to a team that was getting worse week in week out and that had not seen any improvement under the caretaker manager, a team which had serious deficiencies in the squad, the clubs management and the ownership of the club, but he was appointed because of exactly who and what he is, a young inexperienced easily malleable coach who is less likely to rock the boat or to ask for too much.

Maybe Arteta should have been wise enough to realise the job was too much for him but in all honesty how many people would have turned down the opportunity to manage Arsenal in his position and with his limited knowledge and experience, quite simply he was naive and overconfident of his own abilities.

Whether we want to admit it or not a lot of the issues we have currently stem from before Arteta's appointment the problem is he has been unable because of his inexperience to address or resolve them, the long and the short is he needs to be replaced by experience and by someone with a strong will and who is ruthless, unfortunately that is exactly the type of Manager the Kroenkes, Vinai and in my opinion especially Edu dont want.

I don't blame him for taking the job at all - any of us would wouldn't we, even if we knew deep down there were question marks over our respective experience? Your assessment is spot on - this is not a job for the faint hearted or the inexperienced. I think it must be one of the toughest jobs in English football right now. There is a bloated squad, full of shit that nobody wants, which needs trimming down and in the meantime those players won't be happy. We aren't a CL team and haven't been for some time so the very top players will not be drawn to playing for us. Wenger and Kroenke between also allowed a decade of decline to set in - a 4th place is everything culture which could be seen in all our teams from 2008 onwards. Don't reach for the stars, settle for something less exciting with less investment. in the meantime numerous other clubs owners ambitions overtook our own

For all of those reasons, this job needs someone with ideally 10 years+ experience - experience of dealing with conflict, turning around a losers mentality and managing upwards to an owner who will disappoint you at every turn. Emery wasn't the right man for that role, but far better suited than Freddie and in my opinion Arteta too. I wouldn't have had Emery in my top 3 choices for the role when it became available. Carlo Ancelotti would have been a better bet. Antonio Conte would be better, so too Rafa Benitez, Simeone, Allegri and probably a good few more.

My only point about Emery - rather than beat the drum that he was some kind of genius - is that whichever way you look at it, we haven't kicked on since he left. He left us in 8th and I agree that his last 10 games or so weren't up to the desired standard. However, with very exceptions I haven't seen anything since in the PL that makes me think we've arrested that decline and moving in the right direction - if anything the midfield is even weaker and the football more boring to watch. Arteta has made us harder to score against though - there is no doubt about that - but seemingly at the expense of everything else

Max Allegri to sort this mess out for me - but I don't see that happening. We've got a bloke in charge living the dream, who won't rock the boat and be over demanding, which is exactly what Kroenke wants

Agree with most of that Stevo, but wont rock the boat??
Ozil, Guendopy, that bloke who was "scouting" I think "rocking the boat" has been something he hasnt shied from.
He's still a few bad results away from being back under serious pressure.
And I don't think he is the answer, but there's still a possibility I could be wrong.
I know you rated emery more than arteta, but Stevo, he simply didnt have the balls for the job, just as he didnt at PSG, he allowed the players to undermine him, the captaincy "vote" ?
Sorry for the lack of punctuation, I'm a bit pissed and my micro Sunday dinner has just pinged

In terms of not rocking the boat Sid, I meant more with those above him rather than the players, because you're right.....he has clearly sidelined some of the more experienced players like Ozil and Sokratis which undoubtedly would have caused a stir. I also probably don't blame him for not rocking the boat with the owners in the way that say Maureen would......because he doesn't have the track record yet to back it up. I think that's the reason why Kroenke would never pick someone like Simeone or Allegri, as they just wouldn't put up with the lack of investment shit or people like Edu going over and above them

The captaincy vote that Emery allowed to happen was ridiculous, and I tell you now that after the Swiss Mong told everyone to fuck off, I was waiting to see if he restored to him to the team (and as captain)......and if he had done that, he'd have been finished in my eyes. As it happens, I think he dealt with that the right way in the end.

As for PSG - what a bunch of turd bags they are. I'm not sure who can handle Neymar - successive Brazil managers, Tuchel, Barcelona.......he just seems a divisive little c.unt, the likes of which nobody would want in their dressing room

Anyway.......I think we are all agreed that neither Arteta or Emery would be our first choice as manager......and probably neither in most people's top five, but I don't see a change coming any time soon

[gooner265]

Whatever you think of him you have to give Arteta credit for having the balls to get rid of Ozil. I don't think he would have gone if he had registered him and played him in the euro Cup, not many managers would have done that.
I just hope he's as ruthless in the summer , at least 3 of our deadwood have gone this month a promising start.

It was arteta that brought him back into the team in the first place ffs

Every new manager uses the players they have to start with then those not buying into their ideas quickly are dropped.

[augie]

Whatever you think of him you have to give Arteta credit for having the balls to get rid of Ozil. I don't think he would have gone if he had registered him and played him in the euro Cup, not many managers would have done that.
I just hope he's as ruthless in the summer , at least 3 of our deadwood have gone this month a promising start.

It was arteta that brought him back into the team in the first place ffs

Every new manager uses the players they have to start with then those not buying into their ideas quickly are dropped.

Let's be honest here and call it as it was ......... ozil was ousted after he refused to take a pay cut and everyone knows it. Arteta came in full in the knowledge that there was a crew of older players that undermined emery (rightly or wrongly) and he decided to kiss their arses early to get them back onside. I dont give arteta credit for doing what should have been done a long time ago, and anyway I suspect that it was the people above him who had enough of him with the pay cut refusal coming not long after the china fiasco