Mikel Arteta, success or failure? - Merged thread.

[SteveO 35]

Read what you wrote above but put it in the context of Wenger and how pleased you were when he was sacked. And you WERE please, weren’t you? I was because it was long overdue!

Did that mean you felt sacking Wenger was going to be a magic wand? Did you bollocks so why assume those who wanted Emery out thought it would be?

Were you not chuffed when the board finally got shot of Wenger? I bloody was!

Don’t be a hypocrite. The way you’ve written on here about Wenger and Arteta is just as bad as anything I’ve read by others on Emery, so why rub it in so much?

Mate, Arsene Wenger was here for 22 years......and for much of the last 10, and certainly all of the last 5, practically every single person on this forum wanted him out. Of course we were chuffed! It was like Groundhog Day season after season - a man clearly past his sell by date, doing the same things year in, year out and hoping that one day it might change. Pretty much the definition of insanity. I'd say after that many years all of us were rightfully chuffed, wouldn't you? There comes a time when you have to try something different.

However, I said (and many agreed at the time) that whoever was inheriting that cluster fuck after all those years surely needed at least 2 years (and four full windows) to sort that out. Now clearly if they did a Frank de Boer and couldn't buy a point, 2 years (even 1 year) would be too long. But can we honestly say that a season and a third, when you finished 5th (higher than Wenger's last season) and had one dodgy run when we dropped to 8th......was sackable form, only a third way through the first season. Not for me, sorry. If Emery had carried on finishing 8th or lower after two full years and not sorting out the squad, I'd have been joining all those wanting him out too.

How you can compare the reaction to the sacking of a manager after a decade of underachievement versus 15 months of the new man is beyond me - particularly when you yourself would have been one of the more well reasoned posters who would have understood the shit storm that was being inherited.

Having said all that though, you'd have often found me here saying that whilst it was ok sacking Wenger, the biggest c.unt at the club was (and still is) the owner and I chased off a few of the Red Action cocks on here that gave it the large against Usmanov whilst shamelessly backing the takeover from this c.unt. So, yes I was happy Wenger went for 10 years of under achievement but that delight won't come close to how I'll celebrate if Stan Kroenke sells up

No, your point is that the fans were delighted because they thought sacking emery was a magic wand.

I’m calling bullshit on that view

The point I’m making is that you didn’t think sacking Wenger was a magic wand either, so why are you so convinced our fanbase thought sacking emery was a magic wand?

Thanks for telling me what point I'm making

I didn't mention anything about Wenger - you brought his name up, and I've given you a clear reason as to the differences involved. I never once said sacking Wenger was a magic wand, quite the opposite. However, given 10 years of making the same mistakes I think we were entitled to think someone might improve upon that. There was hope, people were fatigued. However, I didn't understand the same rationale being applied to a guy who had been here for 15 months, finished 5th, had fuck all to spend, and got us to the EL final. However, after just 15 months so many people were delighted to see the back of him, they must have assumed there would be a 'magic wand' effect.......otherwise why be so happy?

Oh my fucking god, you’re trolling me ffs I give up.

From the man who actually quoted me to start with and told me what point I was making, lol

Go and have a shandy and calm yourself down man! FFS

[GoonerMuzz]

SteveO i understand some of your points but you obsessively defend Emery against being sacked when he was taking us down the table with no signs of improvement, that is why he was sacked, it is why i personally wanted rid of him because i saw no signs of improvement in the second season, even with the 22 game unbeaten run we were incredibly lucky in many of those games and were, week in week out, conceding goals and chances and even more defensively fragile than we had been under Wenger.

As an example of his mismanagement, it was he who obsessively picked Xhaka no matter how many goals he costs us across Emery's tenure and contrary to some people's somewhat skewed view of events rehabilitated Xhaka into the team, not Freddie and not Arteta, it was Emery who brought him back into training with the first team squad after a spell with the under 23s, then gave him his first substitute appearance and finally his first team start. Xhaka played more times for Emery than anyone other than PEA and Mustafi. That in itself was grounds for sacking him in exactly the same way that Arteta should be sacked for continuing to play Xhaka.

There were excellent reasons from my point of view to sack Emery, not one of those was his difficulty in speaking English and i feel exactly the same with Arteta. The difference being Emery was sackable for the club, Arteta will take considerably more to remove as his appointment suits the club perfectly and without fans in the ground there is very little pressure on him or the club

[SteveO 35]

SteveO i understand some of your points but you obsessively defend Emery against being sacked when he was taking us down the table with no signs of improvement, that is why he was sacked, it is why i personally wanted rid of him because i saw no signs of improvement in the second season, even with the 22 game unbeaten run we were incredibly lucky in many of those games and were, week in week out, conceding goals and chances and even more defensively fragile than we had been under Wenger.

As an example of his mismanagement, it was he who obsessively picked Xhaka no matter how many goals he costs us across Emery's tenure and contrary to some people's somewhat skewed view of events rehabilitated Xhaka into the team, not Freddie and not Arteta, it was Emery who brought him back into training with the first team squad after a spell with the under 23s, then gave him his first substitute appearance and finally his first team start. Xhaka played more times for Emery than anyone other than PEA and Mustafi. That in itself was grounds for sacking him in exactly the same way that Arteta should be sacked for continuing to play Xhaka.

There were excellent reasons from my point of view to sack Emery, not one of those was his difficulty in speaking English and i feel exactly the same with Arteta. The difference being Emery was sackable for the club, Arteta will take considerably more to remove as his appointment suits the club perfectly and without fans in the ground there is very little pressure on him or the club

Emery made some grave mistakes granted - picking Xhaka continuously was one of them, but not as big as the captaincy vote which actually ended up with that mong being given the job permanently. That was shocking, absolutely awful and inexplicable. Playing Mustafi would be another

Personally, I think the assessment of the 22 game run is really harsh. Sure, there was some good fortune......over that number of games every team gets a bit of luck. By the same token every time a team loses, they can argue some bad luck. That 22 game run came when he and the team were under enormous pressure - he'd just been appointed and his first two games were City (thats the 100 points version!) and the Chavs away where our record was abysmal for years. I think he deserves a little bit of credit for the run that followed don't you?

However, I don't think we'll see a manager get us as close to the top four for some time unless there's a change of owner and some serious investment. Balancing out the Xhaka and Mustafi stuff, he also brought Saka through, Martinelli, Leno, and signed Tierney but was seriously unlucky not to have him available for most of his tenure. There was some good stuff too !

I just wish the club had the balls to have appointed neither and have a time machine and head back to the days before Wenger's contract extensions when the likes of Pep and Klopp were available. Failing that can we have Max Allegri please ??!!

[g88ner]

Mate, Arsene Wenger was here for 22 years......and for much of the last 10, and certainly all of the last 5, practically every single person on this forum wanted him out. Of course we were chuffed! It was like Groundhog Day season after season - a man clearly past his sell by date, doing the same things year in, year out and hoping that one day it might change. Pretty much the definition of insanity. I'd say after that many years all of us were rightfully chuffed, wouldn't you? There comes a time when you have to try something different.

However, I said (and many agreed at the time) that whoever was inheriting that cluster fuck after all those years surely needed at least 2 years (and four full windows) to sort that out. Now clearly if they did a Frank de Boer and couldn't buy a point, 2 years (even 1 year) would be too long. But can we honestly say that a season and a third, when you finished 5th (higher than Wenger's last season) and had one dodgy run when we dropped to 8th......was sackable form, only a third way through the first season. Not for me, sorry. If Emery had carried on finishing 8th or lower after two full years and not sorting out the squad, I'd have been joining all those wanting him out too.

How you can compare the reaction to the sacking of a manager after a decade of underachievement versus 15 months of the new man is beyond me - particularly when you yourself would have been one of the more well reasoned posters who would have understood the shit storm that was being inherited.

Having said all that though, you'd have often found me here saying that whilst it was ok sacking Wenger, the biggest c.unt at the club was (and still is) the owner and I chased off a few of the Red Action cocks on here that gave it the large against Usmanov whilst shamelessly backing the takeover from this c.unt. So, yes I was happy Wenger went for 10 years of under achievement but that delight won't come close to how I'll celebrate if Stan Kroenke sells up

No, your point is that the fans were delighted because they thought sacking emery was a magic wand.

I’m calling bullshit on that view

The point I’m making is that you didn’t think sacking Wenger was a magic wand either, so why are you so convinced our fanbase thought sacking emery was a magic wand?

Thanks for telling me what point I'm making

I didn't mention anything about Wenger - you brought his name up, and I've given you a clear reason as to the differences involved. I never once said sacking Wenger was a magic wand, quite the opposite. However, given 10 years of making the same mistakes I think we were entitled to think someone might improve upon that. There was hope, people were fatigued. However, I didn't understand the same rationale being applied to a guy who had been here for 15 months, finished 5th, had fuck all to spend, and got us to the EL final. However, after just 15 months so many people were delighted to see the back of him, they must have assumed there would be a 'magic wand' effect.......otherwise why be so happy?

Oh my fucking god, you’re trolling me ffs I give up.

From the man who actually quoted me to start with and told me what point I was making, lol

Go and have a shandy and calm yourself down man! FFS

you’re intentionally pretending to miss every point I try and make. I like a healthy or heated debate but to miss every point like that is a pisstake. No way is that unintentional. I’m not usmartin or some other freak so don’t troll me like that, that’s not why I joined the forum.

[Bob Bayliss]

Everyone needs to calm down and get behind Arteta as he is going nowhere.

There have been positives this year and despite this week we are still averaging over 2 points a game since Christmas.
The defence has improved - we have the 3rd best defence in the PL, and when we are at full strength I think we can be competitive with most teams.
There is a good young core of British players coming through, led by Saka. Pepe is finally showing some ability and I think Partey can be good, he just needs some time.

This is a freak season - there are too many matches and it is showing, but all teams are affected.
It’s why I was ok with us throwing the FA Cup this season - we have nothing left to prove in that competition anyway.

Arteta will continue to make mistakes, but it makes no sense constantly firing managers either.

Sorry, but I won't get behind someone who is palpably out of his depth in the job and give the cowards who run the club an easy time for failing to install an experienced, proven manager along with a generous transfer budget which he can be trusted to spend well.

It may be a challenging season but, as you say, all teams are affected. So to try to offer that up as some kind of mitigation for an Arsenal team that has lost more matches than won is embarrassing.

As for "constantly firing managers" - we are the polar opposite of Chelsea, way too indulgent for way too long.

[SteveO 35]

No, your point is that the fans were delighted because they thought sacking emery was a magic wand.

I’m calling bullshit on that view

The point I’m making is that you didn’t think sacking Wenger was a magic wand either, so why are you so convinced our fanbase thought sacking emery was a magic wand?

Thanks for telling me what point I'm making

I didn't mention anything about Wenger - you brought his name up, and I've given you a clear reason as to the differences involved. I never once said sacking Wenger was a magic wand, quite the opposite. However, given 10 years of making the same mistakes I think we were entitled to think someone might improve upon that. There was hope, people were fatigued. However, I didn't understand the same rationale being applied to a guy who had been here for 15 months, finished 5th, had fuck all to spend, and got us to the EL final. However, after just 15 months so many people were delighted to see the back of him, they must have assumed there would be a 'magic wand' effect.......otherwise why be so happy?

Oh my fucking god, you’re trolling me ffs I give up.

From the man who actually quoted me to start with and told me what point I was making, lol

Go and have a shandy and calm yourself down man! FFS

you’re intentionally pretending to miss every point I try and make. I like a healthy or heated debate but to miss every point like that is a pisstake. No way is that unintentional. I’m not usmartin or some other freak so don’t troll me like that, that’s not why I joined the forum.

FFS man - have you got some serious case of paranoia today or something? I actually like your style of posting on here - its pretty well reasoned and balanced, and I don't put you in the same bracket as us marty or whatever he was called!

I made an initial point that a lot of people thought sacking Emery was a magic wand - I stand by it. I admitted afterwards I'd overstated it at 90%.

You then made a point about me delighting in Wenger's sacking as if it was a magic wand. I answered it.

Point out what point you actually want addressing and I'll do my best! I can't guarantee you'll like the answer or agree with it - more than likely not - but what point are you actually making here?? I haven't got a scooby doo why you're bringing Wenger into the equation

[Nos89]

I was expecting an upturn in our performance's once Ozil and his posse were moved out the club. Admittedly, the first 47 minutes against wolves were the best we've played this season. However, to lose that game and now against villa is disappointing. It really is down to the manager now. We'll see what he's got but he persists with players who are not delivering.
We can't be that reliant on a left back. If we are, the club is seriously in trouble.

[SteveO 35]

I was expecting an upturn in our performance's once Ozil and his posse were moved out the club. Admittedly, the first 47 minutes against wolves were the best we've played this season. However, to lose that game and now against villa is disappointing. It really is down to the manager now. We'll see what he's got but he persists with players who are not delivering.
We can't be that reliant on a left back. If we are, the club is seriously in trouble.

Exactly - can you ever remember a time in our history when we've missed a full back so badly?! I know I can't

I always feel sorry for a right footer playing left back - it looks unnatural and its harsh on Cedric, but the fact is that he was bloody dreadful in the first half and directly to blame for the goal. We fucked off Kolasinac - no grumbles there, but to not sign another left back (even a second grader like Bertrand) was unforgivable especially as Tierney has a poor injury record. Really left us in the shit now in both full back positions. And for those that claim Xhaka and Saka are cover options, I remind them that this is the Arsenal.......not fucking Gillingham. If you want our best attacking wide player covering LB or a plodding donkey who should have been put down playing there, then words fail me!

[Gunner Rob]

Everyone needs to calm down and get behind Arteta as he is going nowhere.

There have been positives this year and despite this week we are still averaging over 2 points a game since Christmas.
The defence has improved - we have the 3rd best defence in the PL, and when we are at full strength I think we can be competitive with most teams.
There is a good young core of British players coming through, led by Saka. Pepe is finally showing some ability and I think Partey can be good, he just needs some time.

This is a freak season - there are too many matches and it is showing, but all teams are affected.
It’s why I was ok with us throwing the FA Cup this season - we have nothing left to prove in that competition anyway.

Arteta will continue to make mistakes, but it makes no sense constantly firing managers either.

Sorry, but I won't get behind someone who is palpably out of his depth in the job and give the cowards who run the club an easy time for failing to install an experienced, proven manager along with a generous transfer budget which he can be trusted to spend well.

It may be a challenging season but, as you say, all teams are affected. So to try to offer that up as some kind of mitigation for an Arsenal team that has lost more matches than won is embarrassing.

As for "constantly firing managers" - we are the polar opposite of Chelsea, way too indulgent for way too long.

Yes this week has been a setback but i still maintain there has been an improvement in recent weeks.
We are much better than back in November.
The defence is looking better than it has for years - now to improve going forward.
We will have a better balance once Tierney is back. There is still the potential for a strong finish to the season.

[SteveO 35]

Everyone needs to calm down and get behind Arteta as he is going nowhere.

There have been positives this year and despite this week we are still averaging over 2 points a game since Christmas.
The defence has improved - we have the 3rd best defence in the PL, and when we are at full strength I think we can be competitive with most teams.
There is a good young core of British players coming through, led by Saka. Pepe is finally showing some ability and I think Partey can be good, he just needs some time.

This is a freak season - there are too many matches and it is showing, but all teams are affected.
It’s why I was ok with us throwing the FA Cup this season - we have nothing left to prove in that competition anyway.

Arteta will continue to make mistakes, but it makes no sense constantly firing managers either.

Sorry, but I won't get behind someone who is palpably out of his depth in the job and give the cowards who run the club an easy time for failing to install an experienced, proven manager along with a generous transfer budget which he can be trusted to spend well.

It may be a challenging season but, as you say, all teams are affected. So to try to offer that up as some kind of mitigation for an Arsenal team that has lost more matches than won is embarrassing.

As for "constantly firing managers" - we are the polar opposite of Chelsea, way too indulgent for way too long.

Yes this week has been a setback but i still maintain there has been an improvement in recent weeks.
We are much better than back in November.
The defence is looking better than it has for years - now to improve going forward.
We will have a better balance once Tierney is back. There is still the potential for a strong finish to the season.

To be honest though Rob, if it was worse than November we'd be battling relegation. Honestly, I don't think you could pick a worse point in our recent history, so improving upon that was an absolute given. To be mid table approaching two thirds of the way through the season is nothing short of shambolic. Have we regressed so much that we're taking an improvement as meaning being on par with Leeds in their first season in the PL for 16 years.

It would need to be the mother of all runs to finish in the top seven - we're currently five points off that having played three games more.

If we risk key players in the league games then he sure as hell deserves everything coming his way.

If he's man enough to prioritise the EL and pick his strongest side for that, then he'll give himself the basis for a strong finish. We are not consistent enough, and don't have a good enough squad to produce the PL run that would get us top 7..........so its all down to the choices he makes from this point

[Nos89]

SteveO the lowering of standards began in the summer of 2006.
We have a significantly better squad now than anytime between 2008-2015. It's been a steady decline.
It simply highlights the quality of the manager in charge and the mentality of players at the club. It's interesting on Walcott's recent reflection on players accepting 4th was enough.
Arteta has been schooled by a manager who doesn't accept anything less than being top.
The kroenkes have overseen that decline, and accepted it, which is totally unacceptable to me. That's killed the club mentality, and probably why they keep our champion winning ex-players away. Freddie has that mentality and wasn't given the opportunity because he could not accept the attitude and acceptance of our current position. Tierney has that champion winning mentality. Luiz has that mentality too, and I think he'll become an excellent coach.
Arteta's biggest challenge is changing that attitude around the club, and he needs more people around him with that way of thinking. Currently, he is losing that battle with the players.

[SteveO 35]

SteveO the lowering of standards began in the summer of 2006.
We have a significantly better squad now than anytime between 2008-2015. It's been a steady decline.
It simply highlights the quality of the manager in charge and the mentality of players at the club. It's interesting on Walcott's recent reflection on players accepting 4th was enough.
Arteta has been schooled by a manager who doesn't accept anything less than being top.
The kroenkes have overseen that decline, and accepted it, which is totally unacceptable to me. That's killed the club mentality, and probably why they keep our champion winning ex-players away. Freddie has that mentality and wasn't given the opportunity because he could not accept the attitude and acceptance of our current position. Tierney has that champion winning mentality. Luiz has that mentality too, and I think he'll become an excellent coach.
Arteta's biggest challenge is changing that attitude around the club, and he needs more people around him with that way of thinking. Currently, he is losing that battle with the players.

Can't disagree with that - the pathetic, lily livered sale of Ashley Cole for cry baby Gallas + £5m was the perfect signal for every team that they could pull our pants down and nick our best players and it carried on for years to come. I could kind of get it for a few years after the stadium move, especially as Chelsea and then City were throwing around the kind of dosh we'd never seen before. However, it has been plain to see for at least the second part of Kroenke's era that the balance sheet has been in good nick - they've made millions from property, the stadium debt was minimal and we had year after year of Champions League income. Through a complete lack of ambition we allowed clubs like Liverpool, Spurs and Leicester to overtake us, when they had absolutely zero financial advantage - unforgiveable.

Arteta even sounded like Wenger yesterday - apparently, we dominated the game in every department. Well actually mate we had 3 shots on target and they had 8, and from where I was sitting they looked much more like scoring on the break than we did playing our 1930s tip tap. Xhaka's free kick was the only heart stopping moment Martinez had. Wenger used to come out with this cobblers when we had 66% possession, but if you've got players like Bellerin, Pepe and others who can't cross to save their lives and spunk key positions, then the stat is absolutely worthless.

I haven't heard Walcott's comments, but it's plain for all to see that the top 4 became the sole extent of the club's ambition for a decade and the scenes of joy at Newcastle when we celebrated 4th like we'd won the league was as embarrassing as it gets.

Appointing a novice with no managerial experience is just the latest in the Kroenke list of failures. Take Everton and their new owners. Duncan Ferguson actually did a bloody decent job as caretaker and was a club legend.......did they take the easy path and appoint him? Did they fuck - they appointed a bloke who has won everything in the game and probably paying him 5x what Ferguson would have demanded. Look at the two clubs now......

[augie]

Everyone needs to calm down and get behind Arteta as he is going nowhere.

There have been positives this year and despite this week we are still averaging over 2 points a game since Christmas.
The defence has improved - we have the 3rd best defence in the PL, and when we are at full strength I think we can be competitive with most teams.
There is a good young core of British players coming through, led by Saka. Pepe is finally showing some ability and I think Partey can be good, he just needs some time.

This is a freak season - there are too many matches and it is showing, but all teams are affected.
It’s why I was ok with us throwing the FA Cup this season - we have nothing left to prove in that competition anyway.

Arteta will continue to make mistakes, but it makes no sense constantly firing managers either.

Sorry, but I won't get behind someone who is palpably out of his depth in the job and give the cowards who run the club an easy time for failing to install an experienced, proven manager along with a generous transfer budget which he can be trusted to spend well.

It may be a challenging season but, as you say, all teams are affected. So to try to offer that up as some kind of mitigation for an Arsenal team that has lost more matches than won is embarrassing.

As for "constantly firing managers" - we are the polar opposite of Chelsea, way too indulgent for way too long.

Yes this week has been a setback but i still maintain there has been an improvement in recent weeks.
We are much better than back in November.
The defence is looking better than it has for years - now to improve going forward.
We will have a better balance once Tierney is back. There is still the potential for a strong finish to the season.

We beat newcastle, brighton, the baggies and a chav team capitulating to the point that their fat golden boy was about to get the tin tack, plus we drew with a dogshite manure team and a shit palace team with both games at home - lets put this improvement into context please. Also in december we got turned over by the scum (again ), by burnley (at home ) and by everton - all of a sudden the improvement since november isnt so great

[Redarmy]

Arteta decision making as stated many times previously is suspect as described by Pedro from Le Grove:

Willian has contributed absolutely nothing to Arsenal this season. When you are chasing a game like yesterday, with the wind fully in your sales, against a team of athletes, what is the logic behind bringing on a player that has no pace, little ability to move around players, with the body language of someone that’s been asked to join a pub team as a ringer when they’re walking the dog over Hackney Marshes.

Arteta directly influenced the game on saturday....he is lost...he is bigging up Xaha when the guy is imobile and whose passing is erratic
what happened to Sailba???
why has bellerins form gone through the floor
why did they start so slow against villa??

[Arsenal Till I Die]

Roberto Martinez-lite isn't going to make us any better than we are now. No matter how many times we pick up the odd result, the lack of experiences shines through.

If we go 1-0 down in games, we're fucked.