CoronaVirus / Adolf Putin / The Apocalypse etc

As we're unlikely to see terraces again at football, this is the virtual equivalent where you can chat to your hearts content about all football matters and, obviously, Arsenal in particular. This forum encourages all Gooners to visit and contribute so please keep it respectful, clean and topical.
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the playing mantis
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Re: CoronaVirus Latest

Post by the playing mantis »

goonertux wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 8:31 am
GoonerMuzz wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 1:07 am
British people are *word censored*, we want freedom and liberty and then whine when the government takes it away, when they give it back we take the piss, they take it away again we moan like bitches..... ffs this isn't rocket science, it is a communicable disease, avoid other people as much as possible and the infection dies off, but oh no we have to go to the pub/restaurant/gym/social venue/meet family etc etc :roll:

We're in this shit because every man and his dog went out of their way to muddle a very simple message and succeded, what was so difficult to understand about, wash hands, wear masks when appropriate and socially distance as much as possible. But oh no, so many people just had to do what they want because the government was wrong to tell them how to live their lives..... we reap what we sow and we can blame the powers that be all we want but we are all individually and collectively responsible for this situation :roll:
Muzz, you contradict your argument so many times. The Govt message has never been clear. They have moved the goalposts so many times, following the science when it suited , but mainly keeping their paymasters happy. From the beginning they have fucked it up. Cheltenham to keep the racing world happy, Johnson denying it exists, then the promise of a World leading track and trace that ended up as 12 BILLION of our money spunked against the wall. If we were supposed to keep distant, then why ‘Eat out to Help out?’ .

wash your hands, make space, limit mixing, etc rocket science, so difficult to understand.

thick as pig shit people and selfishness is the problem we have now. its common sense what to do in a disease like this, but some folk need the gov to tell them how to wipe their arses it seems.

nfg sums it up well. people need to start taking responsibility and not hide behind the mixed message and gov said i could do it excuses. the gov are lost, but the people dont give a shit either. the first lockdown was a novelty to many, but the entitled got bored and started flouting it. now the same twats just use the govs incompetence as an excuse for their own dont care attitudes.

Clash
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Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:46 pm

Re: CoronaVirus Latest

Post by Clash »

Remembrance Sunday - the day we salute the ones who made the ultimate sacrifice so future generations could live in relative freedom.

And what does our weak, fearful and spineless generation do with that freedom? Give up them away because of corrupt government lies and the media driven hysteria over a slightly different strain of respiratory disease. A rebranded seasonal flu.

Pathetic and gutless.

Everyone of us should be ashamed!

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TeeCee
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Re: CoronaVirus Latest

Post by TeeCee »

Clash, unfortunately it’s ideals like yours that are the big problem. The whole ‘it’s just like flu’ argument is not only pathetic, it’s idiotic, unintelligent and wrong.

For example, between 2014 and 2019, there has been between 11000 and 28000 deaths related to flu each year in the UK. From March to November this year there’s just under 50,000 corona deaths already. The mortality rate for Covid is more than 40 times higher than the flu. Studies are now showing that 7 out of 10 people coming out of hospital after Covid are suffering long term issues related to Covid.
It’s a different disease, much more deadly than flu and the spread has been made much worse because of fuckwits who claim it doesn’t exist! :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Clash
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Re: CoronaVirus Latest

Post by Clash »

TeeCee flu is a respiratory disease that in extreme cases can kill people (as is pneumonia and asthma) so I cannot see why it is so idiotic, pathetic, etc. to compare it with another respiratory disease that in extreme cases, kills people,

What is so much worse about covid-19 that meant we needed to shut the country down not once but twice? First time round maybe, but we now know that in general covid kills the same groups of people that flu does and that it is seasonal. So what’s the big difference? The number of deaths? The long term effects? The cases spreading?

If we look at the figures with more scrutiny (and acknowledge that taking the unprecedented and ruthless step of kicking sick elderly people out of hospital and putting them into to Care Homes in with the group of people most vulnerable to infection contributed significantly to the death total), then they’re comparable. Some sources still claim flu deaths are outnumbering COVID. It depends how you define it bit if people insist on saying there are 50,000 coronavirus deaths (which is extremely vaguely defined I might add) and that these are not just re-categorised from other causes, then they need to explain why flu disappeared for the first time ever. Because what is not happening is the usual numbers of flu deaths plus an additional 50,000 Covid-19 deaths.

The long-covid argument carries weight but it is nothing particularly new. It can take up to 6 months to recover from pneumonia. I do accept many that have not died from covid will suffer though … however there are also serious long term effects of heart disease, strokes, cancer, suicide - the numbers of which will increase significantly because of the lockdown measures. Approximately 27 million hospital appointments have been cancelled this year. How many hundreds of thousands will suffer from the consequences of that in the future? Either from lack of treatment or not getting the crucial early diagnosis that would have saved them? And with billions being spent on tests and vaccines for a mostly healthy population, what other areas of health will face huge pay cuts? The money has to come from somewhere!

As for the cases, other respiratory illnesses have never been tested the way COVID has or given the same extensive news coverage so these numbers are not being run parallel to anything that would give them some context. ''There's been a surge in Oldham'' the news blasts out! Yeah there was bound to be when you've just opened a test centre there! And what does cases mean anyway? Most people who test positive are not even sick. The test isn’t reliable enough either. Until recently I knew just one person who tested positive. I now know two … but the second person got their result before he had even got round to doing the test. This sort of thing fills me with no confidence.

We now have the data that tells us that in the main, only a small group of already sick people are at risk from, what history will show, is a not particularly noteworthy flu-type virus. It also tells us all the first lock-down achieved was to delay both deaths and herd immunity. At the beginning long established science was initially followed but then Communist Ferguson came along and with yet another of his absurd predictions and it provoked widespread panic. The the hugely questionable death toll was reported on a daily basis. Questionable because it failed to distinguish the crucial detail of how many died ‘’from’’ the virus rather than just "with" it.

I am not denying the virus exists or suggesting we ignore it completely but I cannot help thinking the reaction to this whole thing is manufactured and that that the real agenda is to take away more of our freedoms and privacy in a way we'll consent to! And all, as it turns out, for one of the least dangerous pandemics mankind ever had to face.

Our compliance might seem reasonable and responsible in the short term … but long term there will be a price to pay (financially, physically, emotionally, spiritually, etc.) and there will be no going back. The more we comply, the further they will go. At the moment it might sound like I am being a paranoid moron but there are certain things that need to be stopped before they go too far or before it’s too late.

What’s next? Regular vaccines (because viruses mutate), digital health certificates, permanent and tougher restrictions on travel, an end to cash transactions? Today the propaganda is even warning about the dangers of domestic pets spreading the virus.

I am not looking forward to the next decade or the future much that’s for sure. And that’s why I posted what I did on Remembrance Sunday. Our generation, by consenting to the freedom of future generations being eroded before they’ve even been born, are doing the exact opposite to what those we wear the poppy for did for us.

Redarmy
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Re: CoronaVirus Latest

Post by Redarmy »

Clash wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 2:02 pm
TeeCee flu is a respiratory disease that in extreme cases can kill people (as is pneumonia and asthma) so I cannot see why it is so idiotic, pathetic, etc. to compare it with another respiratory disease that in extreme cases, kills people,

What is so much worse about covid-19 that meant we needed to shut the country down not once but twice? First time round maybe, but we now know that in general covid kills the same groups of people that flu does and that it is seasonal. So what’s the big difference? The number of deaths? The long term effects? The cases spreading?

If we look at the figures with more scrutiny (and acknowledge that taking the unprecedented and ruthless step of kicking sick elderly people out of hospital and putting them into to Care Homes in with the group of people most vulnerable to infection contributed significantly to the death total), then they’re comparable. Some sources still claim flu deaths are outnumbering COVID. It depends how you define it bit if people insist on saying there are 50,000 coronavirus deaths (which is extremely vaguely defined I might add) and that these are not just re-categorised from other causes, then they need to explain why flu disappeared for the first time ever. Because what is not happening is the usual numbers of flu deaths plus an additional 50,000 Covid-19 deaths.

The long-covid argument carries weight but it is nothing particularly new. It can take up to 6 months to recover from pneumonia. I do accept many that have not died from covid will suffer though … however there are also serious long term effects of heart disease, strokes, cancer, suicide - the numbers of which will increase significantly because of the lockdown measures. Approximately 27 million hospital appointments have been cancelled this year. How many hundreds of thousands will suffer from the consequences of that in the future? Either from lack of treatment or not getting the crucial early diagnosis that would have saved them? And with billions being spent on tests and vaccines for a mostly healthy population, what other areas of health will face huge pay cuts? The money has to come from somewhere!

As for the cases, other respiratory illnesses have never been tested the way COVID has or given the same extensive news coverage so these numbers are not being run parallel to anything that would give them some context. ''There's been a surge in Oldham'' the news blasts out! Yeah there was bound to be when you've just opened a test centre there! And what does cases mean anyway? Most people who test positive are not even sick. The test isn’t reliable enough either. Until recently I knew just one person who tested positive. I now know two … but the second person got their result before he had even got round to doing the test. This sort of thing fills me with no confidence.

We now have the data that tells us that in the main, only a small group of already sick people are at risk from, what history will show, is a not particularly noteworthy flu-type virus. It also tells us all the first lock-down achieved was to delay both deaths and herd immunity. At the beginning long established science was initially followed but then Communist Ferguson came along and with yet another of his absurd predictions and it provoked widespread panic. The the hugely questionable death toll was reported on a daily basis. Questionable because it failed to distinguish the crucial detail of how many died ‘’from’’ the virus rather than just "with" it.

I am not denying the virus exists or suggesting we ignore it completely but I cannot help thinking the reaction to this whole thing is manufactured and that that the real agenda is to take away more of our freedoms and privacy in a way we'll consent to! And all, as it turns out, for one of the least dangerous pandemics mankind ever had to face.

Our compliance might seem reasonable and responsible in the short term … but long term there will be a price to pay (financially, physically, emotionally, spiritually, etc.) and there will be no going back. The more we comply, the further they will go. At the moment it might sound like I am being a paranoid moron but there are certain things that need to be stopped before they go too far or before it’s too late.

What’s next? Regular vaccines (because viruses mutate), digital health certificates, permanent and tougher restrictions on travel, an end to cash transactions? Today the propaganda is even warning about the dangers of domestic pets spreading the virus.

I am not looking forward to the next decade or the future much that’s for sure. And that’s why I posted what I did on Remembrance Sunday. Our generation, by consenting to the freedom of future generations being eroded before they’ve even been born, are doing the exact opposite to what those we wear the poppy for did for us.
Whilst agreeing with most but not all of above, have to say its a brilliant detailed and well reasoned response

nut flush gooner
Posts: 4010
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:23 am

Re: CoronaVirus Latest

Post by nut flush gooner »

Clash wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 2:02 pm
TeeCee flu is a respiratory disease that in extreme cases can kill people (as is pneumonia and asthma) so I cannot see why it is so idiotic, pathetic, etc. to compare it with another respiratory disease that in extreme cases, kills people,

What is so much worse about covid-19 that meant we needed to shut the country down not once but twice? First time round maybe, but we now know that in general covid kills the same groups of people that flu does and that it is seasonal. So what’s the big difference? The number of deaths? The long term effects? The cases spreading?

If we look at the figures with more scrutiny (and acknowledge that taking the unprecedented and ruthless step of kicking sick elderly people out of hospital and putting them into to Care Homes in with the group of people most vulnerable to infection contributed significantly to the death total), then they’re comparable. Some sources still claim flu deaths are outnumbering COVID. It depends how you define it bit if people insist on saying there are 50,000 coronavirus deaths (which is extremely vaguely defined I might add) and that these are not just re-categorised from other causes, then they need to explain why flu disappeared for the first time ever. Because what is not happening is the usual numbers of flu deaths plus an additional 50,000 Covid-19 deaths.

The long-covid argument carries weight but it is nothing particularly new. It can take up to 6 months to recover from pneumonia. I do accept many that have not died from covid will suffer though … however there are also serious long term effects of heart disease, strokes, cancer, suicide - the numbers of which will increase significantly because of the lockdown measures. Approximately 27 million hospital appointments have been cancelled this year. How many hundreds of thousands will suffer from the consequences of that in the future? Either from lack of treatment or not getting the crucial early diagnosis that would have saved them? And with billions being spent on tests and vaccines for a mostly healthy population, what other areas of health will face huge pay cuts? The money has to come from somewhere!

As for the cases, other respiratory illnesses have never been tested the way COVID has or given the same extensive news coverage so these numbers are not being run parallel to anything that would give them some context. ''There's been a surge in Oldham'' the news blasts out! Yeah there was bound to be when you've just opened a test centre there! And what does cases mean anyway? Most people who test positive are not even sick. The test isn’t reliable enough either. Until recently I knew just one person who tested positive. I now know two … but the second person got their result before he had even got round to doing the test. This sort of thing fills me with no confidence.

We now have the data that tells us that in the main, only a small group of already sick people are at risk from, what history will show, is a not particularly noteworthy flu-type virus. It also tells us all the first lock-down achieved was to delay both deaths and herd immunity. At the beginning long established science was initially followed but then Communist Ferguson came along and with yet another of his absurd predictions and it provoked widespread panic. The the hugely questionable death toll was reported on a daily basis. Questionable because it failed to distinguish the crucial detail of how many died ‘’from’’ the virus rather than just "with" it.

I am not denying the virus exists or suggesting we ignore it completely but I cannot help thinking the reaction to this whole thing is manufactured and that that the real agenda is to take away more of our freedoms and privacy in a way we'll consent to! And all, as it turns out, for one of the least dangerous pandemics mankind ever had to face.

Our compliance might seem reasonable and responsible in the short term … but long term there will be a price to pay (financially, physically, emotionally, spiritually, etc.) and there will be no going back. The more we comply, the further they will go. At the moment it might sound like I am being a paranoid moron but there are certain things that need to be stopped before they go too far or before it’s too late.

What’s next? Regular vaccines (because viruses mutate), digital health certificates, permanent and tougher restrictions on travel, an end to cash transactions? Today the propaganda is even warning about the dangers of domestic pets spreading the virus.

I am not looking forward to the next decade or the future much that’s for sure. And that’s why I posted what I did on Remembrance Sunday. Our generation, by consenting to the freedom of future generations being eroded before they’ve even been born, are doing the exact opposite to what those we wear the poppy for did for us.
Comparing COVID19 with the Flu as a respiratory disease is about the only similarity you could really make. Its a bit like saying Cannabis and Crack Cocaine are illegal drugs, when you know one will fuck you up a lot more than the other big time. By the same token the common Cold is coronavirus.

COVID19 is a novel virus that has jumped from bats to humans. Thats what makes it so dangerous because we are literally learning as we go along. This disease causes a lot of secondary issues including blood clotting, heart attacks and strokes amongst other things as well as the cytokine storms/ARDs that are common with respiratory infections. It is more importantly much more infectious than the flu with a much higher infection fatality rate. Thats why the comparisons shouldn't be made. If we allow COVID to go unchecked through the population hundreds of thousands will die.

We are already up to 70,000 deaths, I reference ONS stats and don't believe the official govt figures which were revised downwards a few months ago. The 28 day rule for recording covid deaths is utterly retarded, Kate Garraways husband has been in a coma for months. If he dies his death will not be recorded as COVID, how can that be right?

There are two ways to combat infection spread, lock down hard and early which we failed to do twice, or get the population embracing social distancing and mask wearing, Again something we aren’t doing enough of. The government literally have a few weeks to sort out track and trace and as a population we have to self isolate when its clear we can be a risk to others. If we don't then watch those death rates rise. The vaccine cant come soon enough.

Check this link out for COVID19 deaths vs Flu. This was from last winter as well, I expect that flu deaths will be negligible compared with COVID19 this winter given the huge flu vaccination program.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... august2020

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OneBardGooner
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Re: CoronaVirus Latest

Post by OneBardGooner »

There was still a No Necked, Over-tattoed, skid mark of an idiot kicking off outside the large Tesco's near me yesterday because he was told he HAD TO wear a Mask...

I mean? W . T. F ???

The Police turned up within a minute and he soon shut the fuckk Up...

2 Police vans turned up - One with a Massive Police Dog - As the copper walked to wards him the dog started snarling and barking at this bloke without any prompting - he visibly shrank and shat himself (either that or he was just Smelly) :D - People were actually laughing at him and clapping when he got in his car, BUT then only for one of the policeman to cite him for a broken rear light... Schweeeeet! :D

8) 8) 8) 8)

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TeeCee
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Re: CoronaVirus Latest

Post by TeeCee »

I cannot help thinking the reaction to this whole thing is manufactured and that that the real agenda is to take away more of our freedoms and privacy
Clash, you have some valid points but that statement above is typical of an anti-government conspiracy theorist viewpoint. Why would governments around the world ruin the global economy, put millions out of work, cause problems across society..........just to 'take away freedom and privacy'? Yes maybe in Russia, North Korea and China but not the majority of countries. It's Madness.

The main point of the lockdowns is to protect health services (around the world). When hospitals have beds in the corridors because there is no more room in wards or ICU's, when healthcare staff are dead on their feet from overwork and stress, and have to live apart from their families because of the danger of spreading the disease further or even worse, through hospitals (and it's already bad). I know someone who has just left the NHS from a very senior role in their field. They said they were not doing tests on NHS staff because basically, they didn't want to know if half the staff had coronavirus! Because it would effectively mean hospitals would have to shut down.

Here in France, we have had over 85000 cases in one day last weekend, and here people are very good about 'obeying' the guidelines of masks and distancing etc. What would the numbers be without the lockdowns and restrictions? Herd immunity is not even feasible because anti-bodies die after a month or so. Do we just go on indefinitely letting >50-100k people a year die off (just in UK)? There have been a few good TV programmes about Covid, going into hospitals etc, talking to patients. It's a horrible disease and certainly not one any responsible government can just say 'let it run it's course' like a dose of flu.
I really don't understand why people get their knickers in a twist about doing something responsible for a month or so (lockdowns), these people have other agendas I suspect!

Gunner Rob
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Re: CoronaVirus Latest

Post by Gunner Rob »

Couldn’t agree more TeeCee.

Some of the idiots in this country are unbelievable with their conspiracy theories.

Sadly the mainly right wing media here does not focus on the virus - it is just focused on how quickly we can get back to normal.
The second lockdown is a joke - the roads are busier than ever, most shops are still open and restaurants/ pubs are open for takeaways.

I fear the U.K. will be under severe restrictions for several months to come.

nut flush gooner
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Re: CoronaVirus Latest

Post by nut flush gooner »

TeeCee wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:00 am
I cannot help thinking the reaction to this whole thing is manufactured and that that the real agenda is to take away more of our freedoms and privacy
Clash, you have some valid points but that statement above is typical of an anti-government conspiracy theorist viewpoint. Why would governments around the world ruin the global economy, put millions out of work, cause problems across society..........just to 'take away freedom and privacy'? Yes maybe in Russia, North Korea and China but not the majority of countries. It's Madness.

The main point of the lockdowns is to protect health services (around the world). When hospitals have beds in the corridors because there is no more room in wards or ICU's, when healthcare staff are dead on their feet from overwork and stress, and have to live apart from their families because of the danger of spreading the disease further or even worse, through hospitals (and it's already bad). I know someone who has just left the NHS from a very senior role in their field. They said they were not doing tests on NHS staff because basically, they didn't want to know if half the staff had coronavirus! Because it would effectively mean hospitals would have to shut down.

Here in France, we have had over 85000 cases in one day last weekend, and here people are very good about 'obeying' the guidelines of masks and distancing etc. What would the numbers be without the lockdowns and restrictions? Herd immunity is not even feasible because anti-bodies die after a month or so. Do we just go on indefinitely letting >50-100k people a year die off (just in UK)? There have been a few good TV programmes about Covid, going into hospitals etc, talking to patients. It's a horrible disease and certainly not one any responsible government can just say 'let it run it's course' like a dose of flu.
I really don't understand why people get their knickers in a twist about doing something responsible for a month or so (lockdowns), these people have other agendas I suspect!
It's hard to disagree with anything here tbh. The whole it's just a bit of flu nonsense just has to stop. Too many people are not pulling in the same direction, that's why we are in the shit.

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OneBardGooner
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Re: CoronaVirus Latest

Post by OneBardGooner »

Maybe if some of these dumbasFUCK Assholes lost one of their family or best friends to COVID they just might realise, it is No F'ing Joke! :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

A11M11
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Re: CoronaVirus Latest

Post by A11M11 »

You're right Rob this second effort is a joke . Most major retailers are open and the general public are out doing their Christmas shopping . Essential retailers ? they are having a laugh. Peole loading up Christmas Tat , lights , wrapping paper , gifts with a loaf of bread and a pint of milk and that's good enough for the shop to be open,
Things were relatively quiet on the spread and the "R" was reasonable until the schools went back . Children may not suffe ras badly as adults but their bubbles are a mess and they mix with all sorts of different age groups and spread it when they get home . How does a family with 3 children at different schools have any hope of keeping it under control. Forget closing pubs and restaurants if they shut schools they might have half a chance.

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SteveO 35
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Re: CoronaVirus Latest

Post by SteveO 35 »

A11M11 wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:34 am
You're right Rob this second effort is a joke . Most major retailers are open and the general public are out doing their Christmas shopping . Essential retailers ? they are having a laugh. Peole loading up Christmas Tat , lights , wrapping paper , gifts with a loaf of bread and a pint of milk and that's good enough for the shop to be open,
Things were relatively quiet on the spread and the "R" was reasonable until the schools went back . Children may not suffe ras badly as adults but their bubbles are a mess and they mix with all sorts of different age groups and spread it when they get home . How does a family with 3 children at different schools have any hope of keeping it under control. Forget closing pubs and restaurants if they shut schools they might have half a chance.
And that's my biggest problem - this isn't a fuckdown lockdown at all. The morning traffic is as busy as ever as kids are still at school, less workplaces have been ordered to close, and those that have were responsible for less than 10 per cent of the multiple outbreaks reported. The R rate didn't soar when pubs opened - it soared when kids went back to school and students to university. They will come home for Xmas, before returning to uni and seeing the whole sorry fucking saga repeated in January......meanwhile the poor bastard running his local hairdresser shop, coffee shop or pub will be ordered to close despite never having reported a single case of the virus

We've now got furlough at 80% extended till March 2021..........so close everything fucking properly and get the army out on the streets, or don't bother at all. Schools closed - learning from home - ditto universities. I can handle working from home and an extension of this misery if we use the period wisely between now and the vaccine being made available in the widestream. What i can't handle is failing to control the spread properly whilst wrecking the economy too. At the moment I've got a 16 year old who can go to sixth form and mix with 30 kids in a class, and then come back home having travelled on a bus or a train. I can handle living with the risk but don't expect this 'lockdown' for a measly 4 weeks to have any sort of material impact. It took almost treble that time with all educational settings closed last time to get any sort of grip. This watered down, halfway house bollocks will do absolutely fuck all

A11M11
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Re: CoronaVirus Latest

Post by A11M11 »

B&m staying open
Wickes staying open
B&q staying open
All off licences staying open
Macdonald's Burger king and kfc staying open
All supermarkets staying open
All take aways staying open
Schools, colleges, universities staying open
Pc world staying open
Curry's staying open
The Range
Dunelm
Mot testing stations
Auto centre's
Savers
Halfords
Majestic wines
Subway
Greggs
Costa coffee
Starbucks
Boots
Hobby craft
Pets at home
Next
M&S clothing
Carpetright
All staying open
Cinemas CLOSED, no logic?
Theatres CLOSED, no logic?
Music venues CLOSED, no logic?
And my friend unable to trade on a market cutting keys as that's not essential ! even if your locked out .
Remind me again please about the rules of lockdown because the small independent businesses dont understand!

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SteveO 35
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Re: CoronaVirus Latest

Post by SteveO 35 »

A11M11 wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 1:08 pm
B&m staying open
Wickes staying open
B&q staying open
All off licences staying open
Macdonald's Burger king and kfc staying open
All supermarkets staying open
All take aways staying open
Schools, colleges, universities staying open
Pc world staying open
Curry's staying open
The Range
Dunelm
Mot testing stations
Auto centre's
Savers
Halfords
Majestic wines
Subway
Greggs
Costa coffee
Starbucks
Boots
Hobby craft
Pets at home
Next
M&S clothing
Carpetright
All staying open
Cinemas CLOSED, no logic?
Theatres CLOSED, no logic?
Music venues CLOSED, no logic?
And my friend unable to trade on a market cutting keys as that's not essential ! even if your locked out .
Remind me again please about the rules of lockdown because the small independent businesses dont understand!
^^ exactly. The world's most ineffective 'lockdown' and for the grand total of 4 weeks :banghead: :banghead:

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