To DanielD

[REB]

daniel
so its ok to bomb schools because maybe hamas live next store ok to kill the innocent
the might of the Israeli army airforce and navy have a total blockade on gaza and nothing gets in or out, so no medical help for the 1000s of innocent civilians who have been shot and bombed by a so called democracy, so why the complete news blackout on media allowed in
as for a fascist state well maybe not but there not far off it,

[DanielD]

so its ok to bomb schools because maybe hamas live next store ok to kill the innocent

First of all, there is no "maybe". Hamas are launching rockets from schools. I don't think they'll even deny it.

Secondly, if we don't take tough means against them, than why would they stop. They have to know that if you shoot towards Israel, they'll be in danger.

the might of the Israeli army airforce and navy have a total blockade on gaza and nothing gets in or out, so no medical help for the 1000s of innocent civilians who have been shot and bombed by a so called democracy, so why the complete news blackout on media allowed in

I really don't know about a blockade.
All I know is that an Iranian ship was trying to get supplies for aid, but as we all know, you can't really trust Iran, especially when it comes to fighting Israel, so we can't take any chances.

From what I know, Hamas is not letting the injured Palestinians to get into Israel for proper medical treatment.
The IDF is setting up a field hospital to treat to Palestinians injured, at the border. Hopefully they will let them help.

[QuartzGooner]

daniel
so its ok to bomb schools because maybe hamas live next store ok to kill the innocent
the might of the Israeli army airforce and navy have a total blockade on gaza and nothing gets in or out, so no medical help for the 1000s of innocent civilians who have been shot and bombed by a so called democracy, so why the complete news blackout on media allowed in
as for a fascist state well maybe not but there not far off it,

Rebel.

Hamas will fire out of schools, UN buildings, hospitals.
They have previously used ambulances to transport weapons and suicide bombers.

They send the kids to the front line so that the kids will be in the line of fire.
They hope the kids will be shot, so that the images will be on TV of Israeli troops firing at kids.
These people do not have the same mentality as the West, they seek "martyrdom" for their brand of Islam.

With that kind of enemy, you fire at them wherever they may be.
You have to fight that kind of enemy, but Israel is not merciless.

Before firing at all targets of such nature, civilians have been warned by leaflet drop from the air, and automated phone messages.
Civilians are told to leave, and given at least an hour's notice to flee.


It is incorrect to say there is no medical help for the Gazans.

Israel stops fighting three hours a day so that food and medical supplies can get in, that is clearly documented and is even shown on national news in the UK.
No one would dispute that fact.

Gazan and West Bank civilians who have medical problems that are too advanced for the local hospitals are regularly treated in Israeli hospitals.
Again, clearly documented on national news.

Even an Iranian child was treated in an Israeli hospital last year, as the local ones did not have the correct equipment.

There is also a field hospital being set up in Gaza to treat civilians, as DanielD has mentioned.

Israel has also sent search and rescue teams to neighbouring hostile Arab countries fro earthquakes etc.
There seems to be some sort of accord which allows for that to happen without politics getting involved.

[Cus Geezer]

Of course while we talk about terrorist actions of Palestinians against Israel, it's worth mentioning terrorist actons carried out in order to bring the state of Israel into being in the first place

A terrorist campaign started in response to the introduction of a policy of restricting an annual quota of Jewish migrants to the mandate to 15,000 per annum. In 1944 a revolt against British rule over Palestine demanding that the British leave the country immediately, blowing up an immigration office, a tax office, the British Intelligence Headquarters in Haifa and Jerusalem, killing a British officer and the murdering of Lord Moyne the British minister of state in the Middle East.

On December 27 1945 Zionist terrorists once again attacked the British Intelligence offices in Jerusalem, killing 7 British policemen.

The biggest terrorist action being the bombing of the UK colonial administrative base of the King David Hotel in 1946, killing 91 people and injuring 46.

Most of those killed were staff of the hotel. By nationality, there were 41 Arabs, 28 British citizens, 17 Jews, 2 Armenians, 1 Russian, 1 Greek and 1 Egyptian. No identifiable traces were found of thirteen of those who were killed.

In fact in 2006 there was a 60th anniversary 'celebration' of this bombing in Israel. There was even going to be an unveiling of a plaque which read 'For reasons known only to the British, the hotel was not evacuated', which is not even true to events and was forced to change this because of the stink kicked up by diplomats.

On Saturday, March 1, 1947, Jewish terrorists attacked the British Officers' Club within a security zone at Goldschmidt House on King George Street in Jerusalem, killing 17 British officers.

On July 8 1947 the kidnapping and murder of two British sergeants in Netanya. The British shortly abandoned the Palestinian Mandate in evident disgust, and turned the problem over to the UN. In a bitter debate, and after intense American pressure, including pressure on England by President Harry Truman to permit more immigration by threatening to withhold loans for Britain's post-war reconstruction , the U.N. passed Resolution 181 creating the state of Israel.

This is clear evidence of the use of terrorism/freedom fighting (delete as to your own perspective), the example of which seems to have been picked up by the Palestinians once under their own occupation.

[QuartzGooner]

Cus,

You have not answered my points from the last post.

You cannot find answers to them.

Instead you resort to an illogical argument.

You criticise Israel for attacking terrorists, then accuse Israel of being terrorists!

Would you criticise the British for fighting the Jewish Haganah, Irgun/Etzl and Lehi (the military forces that you call "terrorists"?

Or should the British have done nothing?
I AM NOT A SUPPORTER OF THE BRITISH POINT OF VIEW REGARDING THE MIDDLE EAST IN THE 1940'S, BUT I CAN SEE WHY THEY FOUGHT THE JEWISH MILITARY FORCES.

I am not opposed to Hamas because they fit some sort of academic definition of "terrorists", I am opposed to them because they are hell bent on destroying me!

I do not believe their cause is just.

Their methodology is not to be compared to the Jewish military forces.

Since when did the Jewish military forces intentionally bomb civilians?

Or use human shields?

What is the occupation of Palestine?

No such thing exists.

Israel captured Egyptian and Jordanian lands in 1967, when Egypt and Jordan attacked Israel, and both countries have since given up those lands!

You also fail to mention the Jews hung by the British as part of the fighting...ever wondered why the two British sergeants were kidnapped and hung?

For the record, some of the action some of the Jews in the 1940's Palestine (as the land was then called) make me very uneasy, and I feel that the violent tactics adopted by some Lehi groups against the British went too far.
I feel a ceasefire between the Jews and the British should have been held for the duration of the world war.

But some of the actions I agree with.

The British were trying to maintain control, but they then banned all but a small number of Jews entering.

This during a time when those Jews were undoubtedly fleeing persecution from Nazis.

So the use of the term "illegal" is irrelevant to me.

The Jews needed a refuge, so where better than our homeland?

If it meant breaking British Empire immigration laws then so what!

Or are you now a fan of the British Empire?

One minute you are socialist, now you are imperialist!

How are they compatable?

Seems to me that you argument is only against Israel, whatever your illogical methodology.

[g88ner]

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[g88ner]

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[QuartzGooner]

So again, I go back to Egypt and Jordan reluctatantly taking back Gaza and West Bank. Is that even practical???

The Egyptians wold not take back Gaza.

They ruled it with an iron fist before, and were loathed by the Gazans.

The moderate Islamic government in Egypt does not want 1.2M Palestinians on their hands, especially when 35% - 50% of them support Hamas! The Egyptian government has enough to worry about with the radical Islamic Brotherhood trying to overthrow it.

Jordanians might want the West Bank to become part of Jordan, but the Jordanian ruling royal family would not.

The rulers of Jordan are Hashemite Arabians, yet their population is about 53% Palestinian.

In 1972, the PLO were very active in Jordan.

So much so, that King Hussein feared a coup.

So he killed 10,000 PLO men in one month, hence the name "Black September".

The PLO fled to Lebanon after that.


There are also now about 250,000 Israelis living in the West Bank.

They would not want to be part of Jordan, so something would have to be done to adjust borders to take that situation into account.


Which takes me to the suggestion of Rabbi Lau, the former Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi of Israel, that the Palestinians trade the West Bank and Gaza in return for an independent state in the Sinai peninsula.

Egypt would have to give up the Sinai, in return for a more peaceful border and trade concessions.

Israel would pay a lot of money to the Palestinians, as would the Arab gulf oil states.

The new country would use all the Abu Dabi and Dubai hydroponic technology to build a planned modern state from scratch.

It would have a cross peninsula railway, motorway and air ports, plus harbours on the Mediterranean and Red Seas..giving it major trading potential between Europe, Africa and Asia.

The climate is also conducive to tourism, seaside resorts could be built.

Bedouin could conduct desert safaris.

Mount Sinai and St Catherine's monastery would provide a historical tourism attraction too.

[SPUDMASHER]

Still not locking this myself but if anyone has had enough and wants it locked I shall.

[Cus Geezer]

Instead you resort to an illogical argument.....Seems to me that you argument is only against Israel, whatever your illogical methodology.

With respect Quartz, your only argument that you use in support of Israel being the homeland to scores of thousands of Jews who originate from Europe is from G-D's word.

Until there is any conclusive proof that G-D actually exists we'll assume there's zero logic there too.

You criticise Israel for attacking terrorists, then accuse Israel of being terrorists!

I'm just merely pointing out that terrorism had a very large contribution to the state of Israel being formed in the first place. It therefore set a precedent and a clear example in how to gain control of things in the area - might is right.

The British were trying to maintain control, but they then banned all but a small number of Jews entering.

This during a time when those Jews were undoubtedly fleeing persecution from Nazis.

So the use of the term "illegal" is irrelevant to me.

The Jews needed a refuge, so where better than our homeland?

If it meant breaking British Empire immigration laws then so what!

You say the word 'homeland', based on what exactly? Most were born in Europe.

Are the Jews of Stamford Hill living in an Anglo-Saxon Australian's 'homeland'?

Here is a list of Israeli PMs - nearly half of them weren't even born in Israel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Mini ... _Ministers

Or are you now a fan of the British Empire?

One minute you are socialist, now you are imperialist!

How are they compatable?

I certainly blame the British empire for the Balfour declaration in the first place.

It had much to do with gaining Jewish support during WW1 in the region and the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Also based on the failed notion that the world can be divided up into national ethnic groupings and an easy answer to Europe's problems regarding this and European Jews.

Also once it became a British mandate handy for the usual imperial divide and rule tactics of the British empire, as with other parts of it like in Ireland, Indian sub-continent and East Africa with Africans and Asians.

[skipper]

Yes, I am saying that military action will provide temporary calmer periods followed by another flare up, ad infinitum, until a Messiah arrives.

Just remind me, who are supposed to be religious fanatics in the region???

I don't even know why I'm arguing with you, as you're clearly deluded in belief that work of fiction is somehow valid basis for commiting 60 years worth of attrocities and fucking up millions of lives...

As for Chomsky, fair point, majority of Jews might not share his views, but you are omitting the fact that majority of Palestinians voted for Hamas at proper democratic elections...are you noticing double standards on yr behalf?

[SPUDMASHER]

You know what. I will never understand how intelligent people believe all that bollocks written in the bible. If ever there was a work of fiction and propoganda then the bible is it. It's utter bollocks.

My faith is about a way of life. That way of life is about peace and tolerance. Unfortunately they are two traits that will never be understood by those in the middle east. They all claim to be religous people and in the name of their religion they kill others. Bizarre!!!!

[Number 5]

You know what. I will never understand how intelligent people believe all that bollocks written in the bible. If ever there was a work of fiction and propoganda then the bible is it. It's utter bollocks.

My faith is about a way of life. That way of life is about peace and tolerance. Unfortunately they are two traits that will never be understood by those in the middle east. They all claim to be religous people and in the name of their religion they kill others. Bizarre!!!!

That's quite a harsh statement Spudmasher. A great deal of my life is committed to my faith as a Roman Catholic. I wouldn't say I'm Einstein but certainly intelligent. I find that especially during hard times my faith becomes even more important to me. It helps me with one of my most difficult failings, forgiveness. My Wedding and the Christening of my two children would have to be three of the most important events in my life and the bible played a huge part in all.

I can't comment on the main topic of this thread because I don't know enough about it but know for sure Religon has got to be the biggest killer of all time and the most dangerous thing can be a Holy war when both sides believe they are fighting with God on their side.

I admire your principles and they are agreeable with what I am taught on Sunday's at mass. I don't agree with everything my Priest teaches but I would say that without my religion my life wouldn't be in the good place that it is now.

[SPUDMASHER]

For me there is so much in the bible that is pure fiction that it casts doubt over everything else.
Some of it is sensationalism at its finest.
Much of what is in there has been discredited by science over the years. Even down to the time of year that JC was allegedly born.

That in itself is bizarre. Knowing the views that arabic men have about thier women, i.e. second class citizens etc., we are supposed to believe that an arabic woman had a baby by someone other than her husband and yet managed not to get her head cut off!!!! Please, it just doesn't figure.

[Number 5]

As a man of God I would suggest we only know what we think we know. If I write what I'm thinking I'd come across as some kind of religious nut job. As basic as I can make it, I just believe that as a species man has an incredible thirst for knowledge and to be in control, this needs to be allowed to flourish in order to make our existence meaningful and justified, so God makes it meaningful for those who don't believe and those who do believe.

We shall all be welcome in the Kingdom.