The 'I told you so' EU referendum - Officially the Worst Thread Ever

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Remain or leave

Remain
30
37%
Leave
51
63%
 
Total votes: 81

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the playing mantis
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Re: EU referendum - What will you vote?

Post by the playing mantis »

nut flush gooner wrote:
the playing mantis wrote:
nut flush gooner wrote: Most people who want vote out couldn't write their reasoning on the back of a fag packet, and most of them use one word immigration.
and whats wrong with that?

economiclly most experts dont know and think the economic costs will balance out. owever we are the 5th largst economy so i think we would be ok. its against the eu's instreetss to put prohinitive tariffs against us, we are a bigger market for them they they are to us, so we can easily do tit for tat if they did which they wouldnt risk

know one really knows what will happen economy wise. there are some things that are known however such as reclaiming soverignity and control over our own matters on our terms. who says we want to copy norway in ite entirity? they are a small econmy with one massive industry propping in up. they have taxation without represenation in the eu effectively but i would think the uk a much bigger, more powerful economy could get better terms. we can control who comes in and stop the ridiculous population growth thats happening here. i suppose it depnds where your priority lies. purely economic where maybe we will be a bit worse off in the short term or if all the non economic positives outweigh it.

maybe there will be short erm pain economically but most 'experts' seem to think that will equalise out. people fear for british jobs, but in europe at least as costs in eastern europe inevetiable go up and we retain a semi skilled workforce they wont shift en masse. toyota/honda for exampleetc have invested far too much in infrastruture to simple up stick and move.

its a exactly like the wenger debate retain stuck with a failing instituion that we know wont ever change for our benefit and we all hate, simply through fear of the unknown. surely we have to take that chance that things can be better rather than stuck with the crappy status quo regardless of short term pain
Not having a good day are you? Have you ever thought about the true net impact on our economy of immigrants? If you actually did some research rather than believe what the Daily Mail says, you would know that immigrants pay into the economy more than they take out, ie they are net contributors.

Yet you think its ok to skin another football fan for the England vs Wales tickets. It's scary and sad that there are millions of people who think in the same way as you do.
yeah let everyone in, who cares about infrasructure or overcrowding ignoring the fact we one of the most densley populated nations (england) in europe. its called globalilaisation...ok lets just let it happen...crazy

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the playing mantis
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Re: EU referendum - What will you vote?

Post by the playing mantis »

nut flush gooner wrote:
the playing mantis wrote:
nut flush gooner wrote: Most people who want vote out couldn't write their reasoning on the back of a fag packet, and most of them use one word immigration.
and whats wrong with that?

economiclly most experts dont know and think the economic costs will balance out. owever we are the 5th largst economy so i think we would be ok. its against the eu's instreetss to put prohinitive tariffs against us, we are a bigger market for them they they are to us, so we can easily do tit for tat if they did which they wouldnt risk

know one really knows what will happen economy wise. there are some things that are known however such as reclaiming soverignity and control over our own matters on our terms. who says we want to copy norway in ite entirity? they are a small econmy with one massive industry propping in up. they have taxation without represenation in the eu effectively but i would think the uk a much bigger, more powerful economy could get better terms. we can control who comes in and stop the ridiculous population growth thats happening here. i suppose it depnds where your priority lies. purely economic where maybe we will be a bit worse off in the short term or if all the non economic positives outweigh it.

maybe there will be short erm pain economically but most 'experts' seem to think that will equalise out. people fear for british jobs, but in europe at least as costs in eastern europe inevetiable go up and we retain a semi skilled workforce they wont shift en masse. toyota/honda for exampleetc have invested far too much in infrastruture to simple up stick and move.

its a exactly like the wenger debate retain stuck with a failing instituion that we know wont ever change for our benefit and we all hate, simply through fear of the unknown. surely we have to take that chance that things can be better rather than stuck with the crappy status quo regardless of short term pain
Not having a good day are you? Have you ever thought about the true net impact on our economy of immigrants? If you actually did some research rather than believe what the Daily Mail says, you would know that immigrants pay into the economy more than they take out, ie they are net contributors.

Yet you think its ok to skin another football fan for the England vs Wales tickets. It's scary and sad that there are millions of people who think in the same way as you do.
where have i said they are take out of the economy. maybe address the facts in the post rather than just going to the lack of argument staple of claiming daily mail views. same thing any pro european says. its racism/xenophobia. what bollox

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the playing mantis
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Re: EU referendum - What will you vote?

Post by the playing mantis »

Sean wrote:
augie wrote:Whether the uk stay in or opt out is nothing to do with me, but I do think that your argument contradicts itself slightly here - you say that money isn't the most important thing but at the same time you are advocating investing in your own people.........investment requires money.
Also I will say that if you honestly believe that money isn't the most important thing then you clearly haven't been affected by the recent downturn in the economy - I have seen honest hardworking people who have spent years in employment paying taxes to the country, suddenly lose their jobs and struggling to survive :( These people have families and homes that they are financially committed to (via mortgages) and are really struggling to keep their homes. You should try telling these people that money isn't the most important thing :oops:
I have grown up in poverty and have been unemployed for ten years, until I fluked getting an apprenticeship last summer. I have no hope of being able to buy a home, or finance having a family of my own. My only hope is to save as much as I can for retirement before I croak.

I hope that if Britain leaves the EU, it will force employers in Britain to use British workers rather than outsourcing everything just because they can.
its employers at fault too, but its the givernment that allow it. its only going to get worse if we stay in. the increased minuminum living wage is a good thing, if we were not in the eu. however it will simply attract even more economic migrants who employers will find ways to undercut the natives. its the same in every profession regardless of the minimum living wage though, im in finance and its the same, the new wage will simly attract more competion.

A11M11
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Re: EU referendum - What will you vote?

Post by A11M11 »

So BT and others say that leaving the EU would cost jobs , just like their call centers I suppose.

nut flush gooner
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Re: EU referendum - What will you vote?

Post by nut flush gooner »

A11M11 wrote:So BT and others say that leaving the EU would cost jobs , just like their call centers I suppose.
So BT don't employ highly skilled engineers or have technology experts? You couldn't make up some of the stuff with this debate.

arseofacrow
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Re: EU referendum - What will you vote?

Post by arseofacrow »

I think "net" figures for immigration contributions to the economy are misleading as they cannot possibly include all of the effects on the economy and society.

I'd take figures and scare stories from all sides with a massive pinch of salt until you know exactly what they're including in the figures. And more importantly, what they're not including.

nut flush gooner
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Re: EU referendum - What will you vote?

Post by nut flush gooner »

arseofacrow wrote:I think "net" figures for immigration contributions to the economy are misleading as they cannot possibly include all of the effects on the economy and society.

I'd take figures and scare stories from all sides with a massive pinch of salt until you know exactly what they're including in the figures. And more importantly, what they're not including.
It's quite simple really net means net! In other words taxation receipts less money spent on social security. If the figure is positive then how can it have a detrimental effect on the economy? Socially having a culturally diverse country is no bad thing, unless you are a UKIP supporter ;).

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-article ... migration/

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DB10GOONER
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Re: EU referendum - What will you vote?

Post by DB10GOONER »

nut flush gooner wrote:
arseofacrow wrote:I think "net" figures for immigration contributions to the economy are misleading as they cannot possibly include all of the effects on the economy and society.

I'd take figures and scare stories from all sides with a massive pinch of salt until you know exactly what they're including in the figures. And more importantly, what they're not including.
It's quite simple really net means net! In other words taxation receipts less money spent on social security. If the figure is positive then how can it have a detrimental effect on the economy? Socially having a culturally diverse country is no bad thing, unless you are a UKIP supporter ;).

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-article ... migration/
That's simply too black and white. Just because the taxation receipts less money spent on social security figure is positive doesn't mean that there is no detrimental effect. Those figures offer only quantitative stats, not qualitative. They have to be qualified. What wage are most of those tax payers on? Is it only a high earning 5% (as an example) of those immigrants that is paying that tax money? What percentage of those immigrants pay no tax and live off benefits? Would the positive immigrant economy be even more positively affected by less or more selective immigration?

Does that make me a Daily Mail reader? :roll:

A11M11
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Re: EU referendum - What will you vote?

Post by A11M11 »

So BT don't employ highly skilled engineers ?

I think you will find their work is sub contracted.

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the playing mantis
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Re: EU referendum - What will you vote?

Post by the playing mantis »

nut flush gooner wrote:
arseofacrow wrote:I think "net" figures for immigration contributions to the economy are misleading as they cannot possibly include all of the effects on the economy and society.

I'd take figures and scare stories from all sides with a massive pinch of salt until you know exactly what they're including in the figures. And more importantly, what they're not including.
It's quite simple really net means net! In other words taxation receipts less money spent on social security. If the figure is positive then how can it have a detrimental effect on the economy? Socially having a culturally diverse country is no bad thing, unless you are a UKIP supporter ;).

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-article ... migration/
population growth/density/infrastructure not an issue though...immigration at levels that can be integrated too...none of these are issues as long as they contribute...

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the playing mantis
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Re: EU referendum - What will you vote?

Post by the playing mantis »

DB10GOONER wrote:
nut flush gooner wrote:
arseofacrow wrote:I think "net" figures for immigration contributions to the economy are misleading as they cannot possibly include all of the effects on the economy and society.

I'd take figures and scare stories from all sides with a massive pinch of salt until you know exactly what they're including in the figures. And more importantly, what they're not including.
It's quite simple really net means net! In other words taxation receipts less money spent on social security. If the figure is positive then how can it have a detrimental effect on the economy? Socially having a culturally diverse country is no bad thing, unless you are a UKIP supporter ;).

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-article ... migration/
That's simply too black and white. Just because the taxation receipts less money spent on social security figure is positive doesn't mean that there is no detrimental effect. Those figures offer only quantitative stats, not qualitative. They have to be qualified. What wage are most of those tax payers on? Is it only a high earning 5% (as an example) of those immigrants that is paying that tax money? What percentage of those immigrants pay no tax and live off benefits? Would the positive immigrant economy be even more positively affected by less or more selective immigration?

Does that make me a Daily Mail reader? :roll:

what about the impact of the person whose job they have theoretically taken? if that person is now dependent on the state, has that cost been factored in? that's before even mentioning the qualitative aspects as DB10 says

A11M11
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Re: EU referendum - What will you vote?

Post by A11M11 »

One of the beauties oif a forum is the diversity of the participants , we are all different ages we have different lifestyles and different expectancies. Nowadays people vote with a "what's best for me " attitude , it wasn't always that way ,following the second world war there was a collective and people voted for the best interest of the country as they saw it. Society has changed .
Sometimes however instead of just strolling to the polling station and voting in your own interest you should take time to see what you are voting for . I remember the to and fro arguments as Heath said please and De Gaulle said Non. We went to Europe needing to boost our economy and signed up for a trading agreement. Wilson went and secured the deal for a market only but as time has gone by the original deal has been altered to such a degree that it no longer bears any resemblance to the one that we voted for. Various politicians of all sides have tried to represent us and maintain our position every one has come back with a piece of paper in their hand and rather like the one that Chamberlain bought back from Hitler within a few days the goalposts moved and in effect the terms were over ridden. Heath said there was no chance of any erosion of our laws and sovereignty .Major said that we would never lift our border controls , Blair said that there would be no extra money for the E.u and then negotiated our rebate away, Osborne said no money for Greece bail out just before he signed the £ 1 billion cheque. Now Cameron has negotiated again and Merkel has said that the E.U has not given much to the U.K . Barrossa talks openly about building an empire and Joncker say's that sometimes in negotiations you have to lie.
Do you really trust that whatever David has agreed will not alter after the vote . I don't ,neither should you.

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northbank123
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Re: EU referendum - What will you vote?

Post by northbank123 »

nut flush gooner wrote:
arseofacrow wrote:I think "net" figures for immigration contributions to the economy are misleading as they cannot possibly include all of the effects on the economy and society.

I'd take figures and scare stories from all sides with a massive pinch of salt until you know exactly what they're including in the figures. And more importantly, what they're not including.
It's quite simple really net means net! In other words taxation receipts less money spent on social security. If the figure is positive then how can it have a detrimental effect on the economy? Socially having a culturally diverse country is no bad thing, unless you are a UKIP supporter ;).

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-article ... migration/
Social security makes up about a third of government expenditure compared to taxation which makes up all of their income - hardly a fair comparison.

No real analysis of impact on public services. Our healthcare system (£140bn a year) is stretched to breaking point and NHS trusts' budgets continue to spiral out of control. More immigration means more strain on the system, more staff required (at taxpayer cost) and longer appointment and procedure waiting times which affects workforce productivity. Have you seen health board expenditure on interpreters for Eastern Europeans? It's frightening in some cases.

Healthcare is just one facet of government expenditure but at an average cost of over £2,000 per person in the UK apparently this isn't relevant when you are considering net contribution to the economy?

arseofacrow
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Re: EU referendum - What will you vote?

Post by arseofacrow »

northbank123 wrote:
nut flush gooner wrote:
arseofacrow wrote:I think "net" figures for immigration contributions to the economy are misleading as they cannot possibly include all of the effects on the economy and society.

I'd take figures and scare stories from all sides with a massive pinch of salt until you know exactly what they're including in the figures. And more importantly, what they're not including.
It's quite simple really net means net! In other words taxation receipts less money spent on social security. If the figure is positive then how can it have a detrimental effect on the economy? Socially having a culturally diverse country is no bad thing, unless you are a UKIP supporter ;).

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-article ... migration/
Social security makes up about a third of government expenditure compared to taxation which makes up all of their income - hardly a fair comparison.

No real analysis of impact on public services. Our healthcare system (£140bn a year) is stretched to breaking point and NHS trusts' budgets continue to spiral out of control. More immigration means more strain on the system, more staff required (at taxpayer cost) and longer appointment and procedure waiting times which affects workforce productivity. Have you seen health board expenditure on interpreters for Eastern Europeans? It's frightening in some cases.

Healthcare is just one facet of government expenditure but at an average cost of over £2,000 per person in the UK apparently this isn't relevant when you are considering net contribution to the economy?
I'll ignore NFG's condesceding attitude and just thank you for making clear the point.

Net is what we can only find when handed on a plate to us. DUH DUH DUH DUH...

:D

nut flush gooner
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Re: EU referendum - What will you vote?

Post by nut flush gooner »

northbank123 wrote:
nut flush gooner wrote:
arseofacrow wrote:I think "net" figures for immigration contributions to the economy are misleading as they cannot possibly include all of the effects on the economy and society.

I'd take figures and scare stories from all sides with a massive pinch of salt until you know exactly what they're including in the figures. And more importantly, what they're not including.
It's quite simple really net means net! In other words taxation receipts less money spent on social security. If the figure is positive then how can it have a detrimental effect on the economy? Socially having a culturally diverse country is no bad thing, unless you are a UKIP supporter ;).

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-article ... migration/
Social security makes up about a third of government expenditure compared to taxation which makes up all of their income - hardly a fair comparison.

No real analysis of impact on public services. Our healthcare system (£140bn a year) is stretched to breaking point and NHS trusts' budgets continue to spiral out of control. More immigration means more strain on the system, more staff required (at taxpayer cost) and longer appointment and procedure waiting times which affects workforce productivity. Have you seen health board expenditure on interpreters for Eastern Europeans? It's frightening in some cases.

Healthcare is just one facet of government expenditure but at an average cost of over £2,000 per person in the UK apparently this isn't relevant when you are considering net contribution to the economy?
Did you read the article?

Here is an excerpt:

"European immigrants who arrived in the UK since 2000 have contributed more than £20bn to UK public finances between 2001 and 2011. Moreover, they have endowed the country with productive human capital that would have cost the UK £6.8bn in spending on education.

Over the period from 2001 to 2011, European immigrants from the EU-15 countries contributed 64% more in taxes than they received in benefits. Immigrants from the Central and East European ‘accession’ countries (the ‘A10’) contributed 12% more than they received".

And another one(note the highlighted quote):

"The positive net fiscal contribution of recent immigrant cohorts (those arriving since 2000) from the A10 countries amounted to almost £5bn, while the net fiscal contributions of recent European immigrants from the rest of the EU totalled £15bn. Recent non-European immigrants’ net contribution was likewise positive, at about £5bn. Over the same period, the net fiscal contribution of native UK born was negative, amounting to almost £617bn.

This thread is another classical make sweeping statements without actually knowing the facts, or trying to use information that is only part of the problem. Just one more point, if you go to your local hospital you probably will see a lot of immigrant workers from the cleaners right through to the doctors/nurses. A lot of these people are from outside the EU, so if you have a restrictive policy for EU workers what do you do with all these people that want to come and work for the NHS? There is a well publicised staffing crisis right now due to the home grown workers not taking the available jobs.

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