THE WENGER THREAD

[arseofacrow]

You actually make some pretty good points.

Let me give you my point of view.

I used to come here a lot in the past, and though I've been critical of Wenger (this stubborness, lack of tactical flexibility, being too loyal to certain players), I just got pissed off at the personal abuse aimed towards him. It seemed everyone here competed with each other to pour as much abuse on him as possible. Some of it was racist and for me, went beyond the line of acceptance. These posters may have been sanctioned by the mods, but I didn't see much evidence of it.

I did attempt to reason my case, but then I just got slaughtered and mocked by many here. If people felt good about themselves in posting abuse of me, then each to their own. I feel it was others making snide comments to me. I came on here as a fellow Gooner and just got bored of the digs at me. I sense many others felt the same.

I answer your points, I was born in 1969 and started going regularly in the mid 80s. We were shite on the pitch generally, but I had great days, following the team, getting hold of away tickets without any difficulty and there was a great spirit amongst our fans on the road. We often lost but we had a great days. I just wished we had more success, other than the odd cup run.

So the first 10 years under Wenger was joy to see us playing such beautiful football and winning league titles. It's only now, looking back, how great it was to see how dominant we were. We owe Wenger a great deal.

He clearly lost is way in the last 10 years. I stand by my view that he was constrained in his spending. Was he really happy to go against Jose and Fergie with a sub standard team, with a war chest of money available??!!? I find it difficult to believe that. But I'm sure I'll be mocked here for such a view. How I'm up Wengers arse and I'm being naive.

Nevertheless, he has made errors, as I mentioned earlier in my post. But I'm not going to resort to vitriolic abuse here on a daily basis.

I still love my match days even though I don't go as much as I used to. I'm looking for us to compete this year and challenge for the title. I believe we can compete this year. If we do fall short, I'm not going to start abusing Wenger and constantly hark back to his mistakes in the past. He is a great manager period. Will he leave us in the mess which Fergie did to Utd. No way. He cares about the club too much for that. He has done wonders for the club but I understand the anger for his past failings. Just wish many here had a little more perspective on things.

Will put on my tin hat and look forward to more abuse...........

Denilson
Eboue
Almunia
Squillaci
Bendtner

Just some of the guys given outrageous contracts during our period of financial restraint.

And you talk of perspective? Ok.

Fergie:
Ralph Milne
Massimo Taibi
Kléberson
Gabriel Obertan
Eric Djemba-Djemba
Anderson
Mark Bosnich
Juan Sebastian Veron

Many bought with inflated fees, big contacts, many hung around for years, many sold at a great loss.

Wenger has his failings but to list his poor signings is totally irrelevant. I could also list Jose's poor signings.

No wonder you got into problems on here mate. It's completely relevant to my point about financial constraint, something which you brought up in your post. It's not about duds, so it's totally irrelevant for you to list someone else duds, because you're not addressing the issue. Man Utd's budget and ability to soak up losses on players has nothing to do with our situation.

You are very welcome.

[arseofacrow]

Double. Double. Double.

[Jumpers For Goalposts]

When you win the Premier League 13 times, the Champions League twice, plus several domestic cups (as Ferguson did) you can afford a few duds.

When you fuck up season after season (as Wenger is doing) any duds will be thrown at you relentlessly, by nasty people like me.

[OneBardGooner]

You actually make some pretty good points.

Let me give you my point of view.

I used to come here a lot in the past, and though I've been critical of Wenger (this stubborness, lack of tactical flexibility, being too loyal to certain players), I just got pissed off at the personal abuse aimed towards him. It seemed everyone here competed with each other to pour as much abuse on him as possible. Some of it was racist and for me, went beyond the line of acceptance. These posters may have been sanctioned by the mods, but I didn't see much evidence of it.

I did attempt to reason my case, but then I just got slaughtered and mocked by many here. If people felt good about themselves in posting abuse of me, then each to their own. I feel it was others making snide comments to me. I came on here as a fellow Gooner and just got bored of the digs at me. I sense many others felt the same.

I answer your points, I was born in 1969 and started going regularly in the mid 80s. We were shite on the pitch generally, but I had great days, following the team, getting hold of away tickets without any difficulty and there was a great spirit amongst our fans on the road. We often lost but we had a great days. I just wished we had more success, other than the odd cup run.

So the first 10 years under Wenger was joy to see us playing such beautiful football and winning league titles. It's only now, looking back, how great it was to see how dominant we were. We owe Wenger a great deal.

He clearly lost is way in the last 10 years. I stand by my view that he was constrained in his spending. Was he really happy to go against Jose and Fergie with a sub standard team, with a war chest of money available??!!? I find it difficult to believe that. But I'm sure I'll be mocked here for such a view. How I'm up Wengers arse and I'm being naive.

Nevertheless, he has made errors, as I mentioned earlier in my post. But I'm not going to resort to vitriolic abuse here on a daily basis.

I still love my match days even though I don't go as much as I used to. I'm looking for us to compete this year and challenge for the title. I believe we can compete this year. If we do fall short, I'm not going to start abusing Wenger and constantly hark back to his mistakes in the past. He is a great manager period. Will he leave us in the mess which Fergie did to Utd. No way. He cares about the club too much for that. He has done wonders for the club but I understand the anger for his past failings. Just wish many here had a little more perspective on things.

Will put on my tin hat and look forward to more abuse...........

Very few on here would abuse Wenger, if he hadn't mis-treated the fans so badly. This is a guy, that last season alone, blamed fans for his own shortcomings. This is a guy who lashes out at anyone who questions him. You talk about abuse, what about his treatment of Jacqui Oatley, when he was borderline bullying her, for having the nerve to ask routine questions. You also mentioned you have been going to games since the 80's, so you have experienced the huge rise in ticket prices then? When asked about the extortionate prices fans have to pay( prices that have prevented life long fans from supporting their club), only 1 manager out of 20 in the league, defended these prices...Wenger. If you want to respect the man for what he has done in the past, then fine, but don't make out he is some sort of respectful, nice guy, he has proved time and again, to be quite the opposite.

I can't argue that Wenger has failings in his dealings with the media. He can be embarrassing at times.
But Fergie and Jose have a longer history of bullying and intimidating journalists. It's all part of a game of trying to manage the media in my view.
And again I concede that Wenger has never concerned himself with rising prices and the welfare of the fans. It's a scandal that no one in the game have tackled the issue. But the managers and players earn a fortune, so they are hardly going to bite the hand that feeds them. What manager has stood up for this issue????

He not only bullied her, he then had the Arsenal press office contact the BBC to ensure she is never allowed to interview him again....the BBC won't admit it, but it well known in media circles that he had her banned - The act of a despot and coward. And being the honourable person and professional she is Jacqui Oatley has not said a word when asked about it. Wenger is a by word for Arrogant Despot Cun.t

[OneBardGooner]

When you win the Premier League 13 times, the Champions League twice, plus several domestic cups (as Ferguson did) you can afford a few duds.

When you fuck up season after season (as Wenger is doing) any duds will be thrown at you relentlessly, by nasty people like me.

And me!

[xisstential]

You actually make some pretty good points.

Let me give you my point of view.

I used to come here a lot in the past, and though I've been critical of Wenger (this stubborness, lack of tactical flexibility, being too loyal to certain players), I just got pissed off at the personal abuse aimed towards him. It seemed everyone here competed with each other to pour as much abuse on him as possible. Some of it was racist and for me, went beyond the line of acceptance. These posters may have been sanctioned by the mods, but I didn't see much evidence of it.

I did attempt to reason my case, but then I just got slaughtered and mocked by many here. If people felt good about themselves in posting abuse of me, then each to their own. I feel it was hers making snide comments to me. I came on here as a fellow Gooner and just got bored of the digs at me. I sense many others felt the same.

I answer your points, I was born in 1969 and started going regularly in the mid 80s. We were shite on the pitch generally, but I had great days, following the team, getting hold of away tickets without any difficulty and there was a great spirit amongst our fans on the road. We often lost but we had a great days. I just wished we had more success, other than the odd cup run.

So the first 10 years under Wenger was joy to see us playing such beautiful football and winning league titles. It's only now, looking back, how great it was to see how dominant we were. We owe Wenger a great deal.

He clearly lost is way in the last 10 years. I stand by my view that he was constrained in his spending. Was he really happy to go against Jose and Fergie with a sub standard team, with a war chest of money available??!!? I find it difficult to believe that. But I'm sure I'll be mocked here for such a view. How I'm up Wengers arse and I'm being naive.

Nevertheless, he has made errors, as I mentioned earlier in my post. But I'm not going to resort to vitriolic abuse here on a daily basis.

I still love my match days even though I don't go as much as I used to. I'm looking for us to compete this year and challenge for the title. I believe we can compete this year. If we do fall short, I'm not going to start abusing Wenger and constantly hark back to his mistakes in the past. He is a great manager period. Will he leave us in the mess which Fergie did to Utd. No way. He cares about the club too much for that. He has done wonders for the club but I understand the anger for his past failings. Just wish many here had a little more perspective on things.

Will put on my tin hat and look forward to more abuse...........

Why, did they call him French???

[Wilson]

All managers make poor signings, but Wenger's problem is he lets them bog him down. When Ferguson or Jose make a poor signing, they admit it to themself and cast the player away literally, or reducing their role in the team. Valencia was a good example. Came to United as a tricky right winger from Wigan, but when he failed to score goals or provide assists (horrible final ball), Ferguson converted him into a pretty solid right back.

Wenger on the other hand, due to his incredible ego, refuses to admit he gets it wrong, so keeps playing the player. He is doing it with Walcott and Giroud. Did it with Denilson, Almunia among others.

If Ferguson signed Giroud, he would still have kept him, but Giroud would never by anything more than a plan B (which would have been the case about 12 months after Ferguson signed him). But for Wenger, this is Giroud's 5th year at the club and Wenger is still backing him as a number 1 striker good enough to lead a team to triumph. Now is Wenger just utterly delusional? I think he is in part. But it also has to do with ego - Wenger just cannot admit to himself he got it wrong (he finds the thought incomprehensible). Thus, many of Wenger's flaws are due to the egocentric flaws in his personality. Not being able to admit your wrong, and not asking for help or advice - these are horrible qualities for a person.

Whilst Ferguson, he outsourced training to his coaches, and always sought advice. Ferguson also didnt have this juvenile self-belief - such as a belief he could turn a postman into a top class footballer (Sanogo).

Wenger flaws go beyond tactics and lack of investment. His religious self-belief has made him unhinged and prone to irrational decision making. Our manager isnt grounded he in reality,rather, he lives in a fictitious world he has created for himself, in which he is a brilliant manager with incredible foresight, and when we question the wisdom of playing Sanogo against Bayern, or Rob Holding against Liverpool - he casts our opinion aside and scoffs at as fools for not having the vision he possess.

[DB10GOONER]

Nice to see LG putting his points across without sniping at people.

It's clear to see that the manager should have gone five years ago. He signed a lot of shit, but unforgivably kept them on for years, paying them obscene wages. The failed vanity projects. Refusing to sign great players unless they fall in his lap. Perpetuating the austerity lie. The Fergie comparison isn't quite right, as he got rid of any duds pretty quickly. He also went out at the top, winning all the way to the end, even if that squad was finished when he did go.

Our manager has been a consistent failure in Europe. Reaching two finals in two decades, considering the talent we had in 97-06, is not good enough. Then there are the title bottlings of 2008, 2010, 2011, 2014 and now 2016. You could also add 1999 and 2003 to that. Then you could also consider the dismal sideways football we've had to endure these past several years - Complete with suicidal defending, blunt attacking and general cowardice. No tactics, no game management, pre-planned 70th minute substitutions, predictable seasons. His behaviour on matchdays (childishly berating the fourth official, yet rarely giving instructions to players) and his contempt for supporters is a disgrace.

He WAS a good manager, when he had the players who ran the game on the pitch and had David Dein encouraging him to sign players and doing the deals for him. He should have left in 2008. His ego has run unchecked since then and it has destroyed his legacy and reputation in a lot of Gooners eyes.

If you look at the last eight years of wilful failure and negligence, there is no way he should still be our manager, getting £23K per day for doing very little.

Sean, that's an excellent post. Hits all the nails square on the head.

The only bit I'd disagree with is your reference to 1999 - and I note you do say "could" add it to the other years of failure. I think we gave it everything that season and were unlucky not to do back to back doubles. So many little things had huge consequences; Bergkamp missing that penalty, Dicko and TA6 not just chopping down the hairy incest-fiend Giggity Giggs, relying on the vermin to get a result on the last day against the manc. We fought right to the bitter end that season, and did our bit on the last day beating Villa. I remember when the vermin/manc result came through I thought, "Fuck it, we gave it a real shot, I'm so proud of Wenger, the players and the club - we'll be back next year".

Of the years you list, the ones that still grind my gears are 2008, 2014 and 2016. The first two because we collapsed through Wenger not strengthening in January, and the last one because he didn't build the team in the summer leading into the most winnable PL there has ever been (and of course he compounded that by again not strengthening in the January).

[StuartL]

All managers make poor signings, but Wenger's problem is he lets them bog him down. When Ferguson or Jose make a poor signing, they admit it to themself and cast the player away literally, or reducing their role in the team. Valencia was a good example. Came to United as a tricky right winger from Wigan, but when he failed to score goals or provide assists (horrible final ball), Ferguson converted him into a pretty solid right back.

Wenger on the other hand, due to his incredible ego, refuses to admit he gets it wrong, so keeps playing the player. He is doing it with Walcott and Giroud. Did it with Denilson, Almunia among others.

If Ferguson signed Giroud, he would still have kept him, but Giroud would never by anything more than a plan B (which would have been the case about 12 months after Ferguson signed him). But for Wenger, this is Giroud's 5th year at the club and Wenger is still backing him as a number 1 striker good enough to lead a team to triumph. Now is Wenger just utterly delusional? I think he is in part. But it also has to do with ego - Wenger just cannot admit to himself he got it wrong (he finds the thought incomprehensible). Thus, many of Wenger's flaws are due to the egocentric flaws in his personality. Not being able to admit your wrong, and not asking for help or advice - these are horrible qualities for a person.

Whilst Ferguson, he outsourced training to his coaches, and always sought advice. Ferguson also didnt have this juvenile self-belief - such as a belief he could turn a postman into a top class footballer (Sanogo).

Wenger flaws go beyond tactics and lack of investment. His religious self-belief has made him unhinged and prone to irrational decision making. Our manager isnt grounded he in reality,rather, he lives in a fictitious world he has created for himself, in which he is a brilliant manager with incredible foresight, and when we question the wisdom of playing Sanogo against Bayern, or Rob Holding against Liverpool - he casts our opinion aside and scoffs at as fools for not having the vision he possess.

Absolutely agree Wilson, he who must be obeyed, surrounded by sycophants and yes men, nobody allowed to question or challenge his desicions because " Arsene knows"

When he is wrong, even spectacularly so, we suffer the consequences for years as he still tries to prove he was right all along rather than hold a hand up and admit it ( especially hates the fans / press tell.him what he needs to do)

[DB10GOONER]

All managers make poor signings, but Wenger's problem is he lets them bog him down. When Ferguson or Jose make a poor signing, they admit it to themself and cast the player away literally, or reducing their role in the team. Valencia was a good example. Came to United as a tricky right winger from Wigan, but when he failed to score goals or provide assists (horrible final ball), Ferguson converted him into a pretty solid right back.

Wenger on the other hand, due to his incredible ego, refuses to admit he gets it wrong, so keeps playing the player. He is doing it with Walcott and Giroud. Did it with Denilson, Almunia among others.

If Ferguson signed Giroud, he would still have kept him, but Giroud would never by anything more than a plan B (which would have been the case about 12 months after Ferguson signed him). But for Wenger, this is Giroud's 5th year at the club and Wenger is still backing him as a number 1 striker good enough to lead a team to triumph. Now is Wenger just utterly delusional? I think he is in part. But it also has to do with ego - Wenger just cannot admit to himself he got it wrong (he finds the thought incomprehensible). Thus, many of Wenger's flaws are due to the egocentric flaws in his personality. Not being able to admit your wrong, and not asking for help or advice - these are horrible qualities for a person.

Whilst Ferguson, he outsourced training to his coaches, and always sought advice. Ferguson also didnt have this juvenile self-belief - such as a belief he could turn a postman into a top class footballer (Sanogo).

Wenger flaws go beyond tactics and lack of investment. His religious self-belief has made him unhinged and prone to irrational decision making. Our manager isnt grounded he in reality,rather, he lives in a fictitious world he has created for himself, in which he is a brilliant manager with incredible foresight, and when we question the wisdom of playing Sanogo against Bayern, or Rob Holding against Liverpool - he casts our opinion aside and scoffs at as fools for not having the vision he possess.

Absolutely agree Wilson, he who must be obeyed, surrounded by sycophants and yes men, nobody allowed to question or challenge his desicions because " Arsene knows"

When he is wrong, even spectacularly so, we suffer the consequences for years as he still tries to prove he was right all along rather than hold a hand up and admit it ( especially hates the fans / press tell.him what he needs to do)

Whilst I mostly agree with both of you, I would add that Rednose was a dictator at the manc also. It's arguable that the greatest managers are usually dictators to some degree or other. I think the major differences are that Rednose (and most other top managers) was pragmatic enough to see when he got it wrong and wasn't ego-obsessed enough to not seek and listen to others' advice and do whatever he had to do to make changes. Rednose also only concerned himself with the football side of his club, he didn't have the deathgrip on every aspect of the club that Wenger has. Wenger as we have seen can never accept he has gotten anything wrong, even stooping to blaming his failure on the fans... and his deathgrip on every aspect of our club is there for everyone to see

[the playing mantis]

You actually make some pretty good points.

Let me give you my point of view.

I used to come here a lot in the past, and though I've been critical of Wenger (this stubborness, lack of tactical flexibility, being too loyal to certain players), I just got pissed off at the personal abuse aimed towards him. It seemed everyone here competed with each other to pour as much abuse on him as possible. Some of it was racist and for me, went beyond the line of acceptance. These posters may have been sanctioned by the mods, but I didn't see much evidence of it.

I did attempt to reason my case, but then I just got slaughtered and mocked by many here. If people felt good about themselves in posting abuse of me, then each to their own. I feel it was others making snide comments to me. I came on here as a fellow Gooner and just got bored of the digs at me. I sense many others felt the same.

I answer your points, I was born in 1969 and started going regularly in the mid 80s. We were shite on the pitch generally, but I had great days, following the team, getting hold of away tickets without any difficulty and there was a great spirit amongst our fans on the road. We often lost but we had a great days. I just wished we had more success, other than the odd cup run.

So the first 10 years under Wenger was joy to see us playing such beautiful football and winning league titles. It's only now, looking back, how great it was to see how dominant we were. We owe Wenger a great deal.

He clearly lost is way in the last 10 years. I stand by my view that he was constrained in his spending. Was he really happy to go against Jose and Fergie with a sub standard team, with a war chest of money available??!!? I find it difficult to believe that. But I'm sure I'll be mocked here for such a view. How I'm up Wengers arse and I'm being naive.

Nevertheless, he has made errors, as I mentioned earlier in my post. But I'm not going to resort to vitriolic abuse here on a daily basis.

I still love my match days even though I don't go as much as I used to. I'm looking for us to compete this year and challenge for the title. I believe we can compete this year. If we do fall short, I'm not going to start abusing Wenger and constantly hark back to his mistakes in the past. He is a great manager period. Will he leave us in the mess which Fergie did to Utd. No way. He cares about the club too much for that. He has done wonders for the club but I understand the anger for his past failings. Just wish many here had a little more perspective on things.

Will put on my tin hat and look forward to more abuse...........

Denilson
Eboue
Almunia
Squillaci
Bendtner

Just some of the guys given outrageous contracts during our period of financial restraint.

And you talk of perspective? Ok.

Fergie:
Ralph Milne
Massimo Taibi
Kléberson
Gabriel Obertan
Eric Djemba-Djemba
Anderson
Mark Bosnich
Juan Sebastian Veron

Many bought with inflated fees, big contacts, many hung around for years, many sold at a great loss.

Wenger has his failings but to list his poor signings is totally irrelevant. I could also list Jose's poor signings.

but fergie wasn't under apparent financial constraints as you claim wenger was...

which is as your fergie argument is completely irrelevant.

you set yourself up by saying wenger was hampered by financial constraints.
Arseofacrow challenged that with all the wages wasted on clearly not good enough players who got extensions and played a lot of first team football, showing that if wenger was constrained why did he waste that money he did have.
You counted with fergies duds.

but fergies duds are irrelevant as he wasn't under supposed financial constraints.

your defense makes no sense!

[Wilson]

I also think Fergusons interests outside of football helped. He would get away and distract himself with his race horses and golf ect.

Wenger by his own admission doesnt have any hobbies and simply focuses on football.

Such focus is not healthy. To not be able to walk away from the game and recharge physically, mentally and psychologically.........now wonder Wenger looks so frail and a constant nervous wreck.

Wenger goes on about all the work he puts in, about how he concerns himself with the football, the financial, the corporate aspects of the club, as if its a good thing. Its not a good thing for one person to constantly work, and do so many jobs. Any top university MBA would never endorse such a practice as good for the entity. Its just another example of Wenger ignorance. Where he thinks he should be given credit for doing all this work, the reality is most fans wish he would fuk out the boardroom and simply focus on football, and stop worrying about the clubs finances.

[Wilson]

'Financial constraint'.

Its only handicap if you allow it to be. Didnt stop Leicester City, or Atletico Madrid. Yet some see it as a valid excuse for Wenger. \

Plus, Wenger says every transfer window that money spent isnt indicative of quality, so he cant keep being allowed to change his principles like the wind, simply to make life comfortable for himself with excuses for why he hasnt competed for the major honous.

Start of the year "Spending big amounts of money doesn't guarantee success'

End of Year "We didnt compete because we dont have the resources of the other clubs"

Principles my tits. His principles change for his convenience sake.

[Nos89]

I think the point being missed is that Ferguson didn't need an ego as he had a trail of trophies, Wenger's has basked in the glory of an unbeaten league campaign, which for him is the ultimate achievement. He should've gone in 2006 after the Champions League final defeat as his poor decision making cost us a win.
Wenger's ego boosted by the fact no matter how many injuries and how young, or the deteriorating quality of players he got us in the top 4...every season.
Although, he didn't deliver the trophies, he delivered what was expected of him by the board, not by the fans.

[Redarmy]

I also think Fergusons interests outside of football helped. He would get away and distract himself with his race horses and golf ect.

Wenger by his own admission doesnt have any hobbies and simply focuses on football.

Such focus is not healthy. To not be able to walk away from the game and recharge physically, mentally and psychologically.........now wonder Wenger looks so frail and a constant nervous wreck.

Wenger goes on about all the work he puts in, about how he concerns himself with the football, the financial, the corporate aspects of the club, as if its a good thing. Its not a good thing for one person to constantly work, and do so many jobs. Any top university MBA would never endorse such a practice as good for the entity. Its just another example of Wenger ignorance. Where he thinks he should be given credit for doing all this work, the reality is most fans wish he would fuk out the boardroom and simply focus on football, and stop worrying about the clubs finances.

Apparently his neighbour says the only time he goes out is to the stadium or training ground...he has no other life