Facts In Regard of the "View of a Real Greek Cypriot&qu

[Reality]

I hope you will permit me to reply from a Turkish Cypriot point of view to the posting by “N13 Goonerâ€

[N13Gooner]

Who's Reality is this??? The reality that lives in Turkey and not the rest of the world.

I put links such as UN reports and ECHR judgments there for a reason as they would be from a neutral and credible perspective. You havent really posted any facts but just your own hearsay.

The only people who put Turkish Cypriots under so-called 'isolation'...(even though the few Turkish Cypriots who live in the unoccupied parts of Cyprus have the same rights as everyone else) are Turkish Cypriots themselves and Turkey. You cant ethnically cleanse a sovereign state and invade it and expect the world to be ok with it lol.

[gooner Erol]

Ah very well written by Reality , n13 gooner you know deep down it's all true......as we know you all spout off your own greek versions......one good thing that's come out of it is, that i have had many English/British gooners being made aware of whats gone on in the history of Turks & greeks re. Cyprus & they are now seeing it in a very different light...keep up the good work......Oh, come on you GUNNERS!

[kypros]

Reality the reality is Turks are barbarians by nature and history .Not only Christians have suffered their barbarity but their own kind such as the kurds have a few stories to tell. What you claim in your post is utter boll@x

Reality the reality is only a major miracle stop the Greeks retaliating due to assurance from UN and Britain mainly, that Turkeys illegal invasion would have consequences from the international community and sanctions would be the proper and peaceful way to force Turkeys illegal occupation to end.

Reality reality is if war broke out between the Greeks and the Turkish Jihadist Cyprus would have been reduced to ashes and we probably wouldn’t have been here to have this debate.

[gooner Erol]

Oh please come on now.....think if the greeks tried to force tnings again in Cyprus what the out come from the Turks would be now come on....

[N13Gooner]

I would firstly like to point out that I am Greek Cypriot and DO NOT agree with Kypros' views on the 'Turkish Jihadist' statments - as im sure many people who have followed this issue in detail would agree. I think it was a silly comment to make and does us no favours with neutral people reading this forum.

Infact, Cyprus has a better relationship with Islamic states than Turkey has but I REALLY dont want to go into religion here!!!

What I would like to say to Erol is that the self proclaimed Turkish state in Cyprus is not officially recognised by the international community for a reason. Not by a Western, Islamic, Communist or any other kind of state or country.

I could post loads of views by politicians and newspaper articles which condemn Turkeys invasion and occupation of Cyprus - but they are not credible facts. The European Courts of Human Rights judgements are realistic because they are made of a jury of various nationalities and the most credible way of making such notions.

From what I have seen here, I dont think many English or British gooners give a crap about this issue and will go with the easiest option to get the St George's Cross or Union Jack flown back at Arsenal...which is that they think Greek Cypriots are being politically correct moaners. Would it not also be politically correct to act negatively towards NF or BNP flags hung flags at the ground??? Im also sure that there would be an acceptance if theoretically Jewish fans objected to the Swastika.
That scenario would probably be different though because there is more
media coverage and acceptance within British society if those objections were raised.

Its funny because there has hardly ever been many England or GB flags at Arsenal over the last 10 years but this issue just seems to get the patriotic or nationalistic sentiments flowing.

Groups like Red Action make me laugh because here is a serious conflict of views by Arsenal fans and one that has caused a very big ripple effect amongst the supporters. They are, from what I can see, a group that is supposed to have Arsenal fans interest at heart but from what I have witnessed, none have even bothered to take any research into a subject that has had a big impact on the Arsenal fan basis and have been all to quick to condemn Greek Cypriots as moaners. I dont think they know how many Greek Cypriots have and still are going to Arsenal games every match day and doubt many of them even live in London. How many of Red Action were going to boring wet midweek Highbury matches in the 1980's? Lets hope Red Action will do something with a bit more depth and meaning than trying to get Arsenal fans to sing (which I do applaude and needs to be done). Such a statement from me probably wont do the Greek Cypriot cause any favours and im sure will get us more condemnation amongst their articles...but it has to be said. They have truley alienated a large core of the London Arsenal fan basis - without realising.

What annoys me most is that the flying of this flag WAS a politically motivated move (http://www.embargoed.org/external_news_events.php?id=82 ) but doesnt get the same treatment as the other political or racially offensive issues because the understanding isnt there.

I hope so much that a Kurdish fan flys the flag of Kurdistan at the ground...you will truly see the shoe on the other foot there.

Erol, it would be suffice to say that my knowledge on the Cyprus problem has a lot more depth than yours (without trying to sound arrogant), I've heard all the conspiracy theories and I also know how much the Turkish Cypriot community is trying hard to get the occupation in the north recognised as a state / separate country. Me and you both know the flying of the 'TRNC' flag at Arsenal was a political move for recognition and this guy knew how much controversy it would cause.

Please come back with something more intelligent than telling me I know that you are right.

As for any of the neutrals who read this and think the 'TRNC' is a state or country. Ask yourself why you have never seen an international 'TRNC' football side then if you want to know more, research why that is.

[Reality]

Dear Gooner N13 and Kypros
If everything was hunky dory in Cyprus untill 1974 then how come there has been a UN Peace Keeping Force there since 1964????
If you have a good knowledge of the Cyprus issue then you should be aware of the high court decision of GREECE! in the 1970's that ruled that the Turkish INTERVENTION (look up the treaty of guarantee which gave the guarantor states the collateral and unilateral right to intervene in Cyprus) WAS NOT ILLEGAL.
You speak about the UN. Makarios himself made a PLEA there after the coup of 15 July 1974 for the world to do something because there was to be an ethnic cleansing of the Turkish Cypriots.
Kypros talks about Barbarism and Jihad???? Do you have any idea what you are talking about. Turkish Cypriots have never been radically religious. Barbarism? lets talk about subjecting Turkish Cypriots to live in enclaves for a decade between 1964-1974. Lets talks about how when my father travelled to cyprus at the end of 1960's he had to go through check points where the coach carrying people from the airport to villages was stopped at every check point where your soldiers would just make them wait for no apparent reason taking them off from their coach, having women "searched!" by arogant abusive military men having a kick with rubbing themselves over these women!
lets talk about how the Greek Cypriots fired machine guns to Turkish Cypriot students in 64 and the innocent children and wife of a military doctor barbarically numerously shot dead by machine guns in their bathroom in Lefkosa (go to lefkosa and visit the Museum of Barbarism) Lets talk about the mass graves at Murataga and Sandallar where the people of the two villages were taken to a field ALL killed and dumped into massive pit holes (18 day old babies, 3 months old babies, 80 year old men, women, A WHOLE VILLAGE. Whole families killed). Lets talk about the Village of Taskent in which all men, fathers, brothers were brutally murdered - all of them! Camps were created were Greek Cypriots hurdled Turkish Cypriots like animals. They made sons spit in the mouths of their fathers at gun point . THEY FORCED FATHERS TO RAPE THEIR OWN DAUGHTERS AT GUN POINT. THEY FORCED FATHERS TO WATCH THEIR OWN DAUGHTERS BEING RAPED BY YOUR SOLDIERS!!!
Look up the Hesperides Hotels case in which the UK courts declared that although the TRNC is only recognised by Turkey there is no doubt that there is a legitimate administration there which deals with day to day life.
I wonder if wether N13 or Kypros have you ever visited Northern Cyprus. Even though we suffer embargoes dont have the misconception that it is a place like Afganistan. In 2003 when the crossings commenced between the two sides I met so many Greek Cypriots that were astonished to what they saw. They were even very angry towards their own administration for letting them believe we live over in the North like Rats! Get over yourself and start asking your own people to tell you the truth or better yet research it yourself. Read Clerides's "My Deposition". Read it from his mouth of what the Greek Cypriots did back then to the Turkish Cypriots. Acknowledge that so many missing people claimed to be killed by the Turkish army were already killed in the coup on 15th July and burried in the south. With recent revelations of your own administration it is high time intelligent Greek Cypriots ask both themselves and their leaders for explanations.
in the 1960's my neighbours father was taken from his house (along with other men of his village) and has never been heard or seen ever again. WHY????? Turkey was very patient to intervene. she waited for 10 odd years. What did you expect to happen? She was going to wait for the last Turkish Cypriot to be barbarically murdered? 1974 wasnt the year things started. IT IS THE YEAR BRUTALITY ENDED! DEAL WITH IT!!!

[gooner Erol]

For gods sake man of course it was not a political move to fly the flag if it was you would of seen more than 1 no!!!
Your just going over the same old ground over & over & over & over.......zzzzzzzzzzzz

[N13Gooner]

Dear Gooner N13 and Kypros
If everything was hunky dory in Cyprus untill 1974 then how come there has been a UN Peace Keeping Force there since 1964????
If you have a good knowledge of the Cyprus issue then you should be aware of the high court decision of GREECE! in the 1970's that ruled that the Turkish INTERVENTION (look up the treaty of guarantee which gave the guarantor states the collateral and unilateral right to intervene in Cyprus) WAS NOT ILLEGAL.
You speak about the UN. Makarios himself made a PLEA there after the coup of 15 July 1974 for the world to do something because there was to be an ethnic cleansing of the Turkish Cypriots.

Everything was not hunkydory in Cyprus until 1974 - I did not say that and you are pulling out lies from the sky. The UN peace keeping was there to supposedly keep the tention between the Greek and Turkish Cypriots down. Turkish Cypriot paramilitary group the TMT did their best and succeeded in causing tention in Cyprus by commiting crimes against Greek Cypriots or even commiting crimes against Turkish Cypriots and blaming Greek Cypriots. Why?? So their call for the island to be segregated, which was planned whilst Britain was still in power, could have some meaning if the two communities were at war.

Turkey, like Greece and Britain, did have a Treaty of Guarantee but that was to intervene in any internal disuptes ocurred and bring back normality to the island. Turkey violated their Treaty of Guarantee rights by ethnically cleansing the north of Greek, Armenian and basically any other non-Turkish Cypriots - and also occupying the north of the island for 32 years now. Have you BOTHERED to read the Treaty of Guarantee or are you another brainwashed follower who will believe Turkish propaganda. At least have enough intelligence to do some credible research instead of looking at Turkish propaganda websites.

Turkey invaded twice in the summer of 1974. By the time of the second and stronger invasion, the Greek military government had been over thrown by the Greek people and put into jail - and the EOKA B paramilitary group, backed by the CIA, had dispanded a FULL MONTH in Cyprus before Turkey invaded and decided to stay there permanently. So why did Turkey invaded and stay in Cyprus a second time then??? They had absoloutely NO REASON to do so, and even LESS REASON to expell Greek Cypriots from their homes, especially as 99.99% of them did not want to join with Greece at that point in time.

Yes Cypriot leader Makarios called for an intervention in Cyprus because there was a civil dispute within the Greek Cypriot community alone, between those that wanted to side with the Greece dictatorship and those that wanted to be independant. The Greek dictatorship wanted to kill Makarios because his allegences were to the left and wanted an independent Cyprus. YOU ARE TOTALLY LIEING WHEN YOU SAY THAT THERE WAS A PLAN TO EXTERMINATE TURKISH CYPRIOTS!!! ITS A TOTAL AND MADE UP LIE BY THE TURKISH GOVERNMENT AND YOU HAVE NO *CREDIBLE PROOF* THAT SUCH A PLAN EXISTED. Not ONE Turkish Cypriot was killed by a Greek Cypriot in the year before the invasion and Turkey's main reasons for taking some of Cyprus was for military strategic reasons - as if Cyprus did join with Greece, then Turkey would have been totally surounded on their western coast by Greek islands.

Kypros talks about Barbarism and Jihad???? Do you have any idea what you are talking about. Turkish Cypriots have never been radically religious. Barbarism? lets talk about subjecting Turkish Cypriots to live in enclaves for a decade between 1964-1974. Lets talks about how when my father travelled to cyprus at the end of 1960's he had to go through check points where the coach carrying people from the airport to villages was stopped at every check point where your soldiers would just make them wait for no apparent reason taking them off from their coach, having women "searched!" by arogant abusive military men having a kick with rubbing themselves over these women!

Turkish Cypriots lived in enclaves on their own merit because they wanted to separate the island in two and have a piece of Cyprus for themselves. Hence the Turkish Cypriot community stirring violance to back their point. Turkish Cypriot paramilitaries even killed members of their own community who wanted to live in their legit homes and not in enclaves. The Turkish Cypriot community even expelled Armenian Cypriots from their homes because their neighbourhood in Nicosia was within the Turkish Cypriot enclaves. As with regards to military checks, im not saying every Greek Cypriot was innocent at all beut ive heard so many lies from their community that it becomes a 'Cry Wolf' scenario. I've heard many other conspiracy theories which have been proven wrong, so even though I was not even born at that point, I am not going to say whether this story is true or false.

lets talk about how the Greek Cypriots fired machine guns to Turkish Cypriot students in 64 and the innocent children and wife of a military doctor barbarically numerously shot dead by machine guns in their bathroom in Lefkosa (go to lefkosa and visit the Museum of Barbarism) Lets talk about the mass graves at Murataga and Sandallar where the people of the two villages were taken to a field ALL killed and dumped into massive pit holes (18 day old babies, 3 months old babies, 80 year old men, women, A WHOLE VILLAGE. Whole families killed). Lets talk about the Village of Taskent in which all men, fathers, brothers were brutally murdered - all of them! Camps were created were Greek Cypriots hurdled Turkish Cypriots like animals. They made sons spit in the mouths of their fathers at gun point . THEY FORCED FATHERS TO RAPE THEIR OWN DAUGHTERS AT GUN POINT. THEY FORCED FATHERS TO WATCH THEIR OWN DAUGHTERS BEING RAPED BY YOUR SOLDIERS!!!

There may be a 'Museum of Barbarism' in occupied Nicosia but I wonder how much of it is accurate in the information that is given.

Im sure innocent Turkish Cypriots may have been killed during the war in 1974 but unfortunatly it was a war started by Turkey and their were many retaliation attacks. With regard to forcing fathers rape their daughters, well...unless such has been found to be true by neutral parties such as the European Courts of Human Rights, then I cannot believe it because I know there are many lies spread by Turkey and the Turkish Cypriots in order to make their invasion and occupation of Cyprus look legit.

Look up the Hesperides Hotels case in which the UK courts declared that although the TRNC is only recognised by Turkey there is no doubt that there is a legitimate administration there which deals with day to day life.
I wonder if wether N13 or Kypros have you ever visited Northern Cyprus. Even though we suffer embargoes dont have the misconception that it is a place like Afganistan. In 2003 when the crossings commenced between the two sides I met so many Greek Cypriots that were astonished to what they saw. They were even very angry towards their own administration for letting them believe we live over in the North like Rats! Get over yourself and start asking your own people to tell you the truth or better yet research it yourself. Read Clerides's "My Deposition". Read it from his mouth of what the Greek Cypriots did back then to the Turkish Cypriots. Acknowledge that so many missing people claimed to be killed by the Turkish army were already killed in the coup on 15th July and burried in the south. With recent revelations of your own administration it is high time intelligent Greek Cypriots ask both themselves and their leaders for explanations.

Yes I visited Kyrenia in 2003 and was in Cyprus during that summer and when the Green Line openend - Turkish flags everywhere.

The only people who 'embargo' Turkish Cypriots are themselves and Turkey. The Cyprus government isnt holding a gun to any other country's head that wants to recognise the occupation as a state. If Turkish Cypriots want to trade with the world then they have to have respect for international law and human rights...and the current occupation in the north breaks both entities.

Like I said before, I take my information from reputable sources not conspiracy theories or half truths spread by Greek or Turkish Cypriots. Im not going to counter evey piece of propaganda that you type because this is the wrong place and I cant be arsed. Although, If any non-Greek or Turk wanted me to do so for them I will.

[Reality]

1)As for your comment "YOU ARE TOTALLY LIEING WHEN YOU SAY THAT THERE WAS A PLAN TO EXTERMINATE TURKISH CYPRIOTS!!! ITS A TOTAL AND MADE UP LIE BY THE TURKISH GOVERNMENT AND YOU HAVE NO *CREDIBLE PROOF* THAT SUCH A PLAN EXISTED."
Feel free to research and check out the "Akritas Plan" Like I said READ Clerides' "My Deposition"

Clerides revealed in his memoirs that the Greek Cypriots, immediately after the Cyprus Republic was established, had decided to draw up a plan, "by virtue of which stage, by stage, by unilateral actions they would abolish the `excessive rights' granted to the `Turkish minority', beginning with those amendments that were easier to make unilaterally and leaving the most difficult ones after our right for unilateral amendments was established by a de facto process".
(Clerides op. cit, p. 207)

ARMING PARAMILITARY GROUPS
This move of the Greek Cypriot leadership escalated the tension between the two communities.
Clerides admits that "The Turkish Cypriots had more reasons to fear" and in fact on the Greek Cypriot side there were forces which intended to change the constitution and which opposed independence.
Note the constitution meaning the 1960 Constitution of the Republic of Cyprus

2)Not only have i read the Treaty of Guarantee let me do you a favour and quote the relevant article for you here
"Article IV
In the event of a breach of the provisions of the present Treaty, Greece, Turkey and the United Kingdom undertake to consult together with respect to the representations or measures necessary to ensure observance of those provisions.
In so far as common or concerted action may not prove possible, each of the three guaranteeing Powers reserves the right to take action with the sole aim of re-establishing the state of affairs created by the present Treatyâ€

[N13Gooner]

1)As for your comment "YOU ARE TOTALLY LIEING WHEN YOU SAY THAT THERE WAS A PLAN TO EXTERMINATE TURKISH CYPRIOTS!!! ITS A TOTAL AND MADE UP LIE BY THE TURKISH GOVERNMENT AND YOU HAVE NO *CREDIBLE PROOF* THAT SUCH A PLAN EXISTED."
Feel free to research and check out the "Akritas Plan" Like I said READ Clerides' "My Deposition"

Clerides revealed in his memoirs that the Greek Cypriots, immediately after the Cyprus Republic was established, had decided to draw up a plan, "by virtue of which stage, by stage, by unilateral actions they would abolish the `excessive rights' granted to the `Turkish minority', beginning with those amendments that were easier to make unilaterally and leaving the most difficult ones after our right for unilateral amendments was established by a de facto process".
(Clerides op. cit, p. 207)

How does this translate to exterminating Turkish Cypriots to you?? lol

2)Not only have i read the Treaty of Guarantee let me do you a favour and quote the relevant article for you here
"Article IV
In the event of a breach of the provisions of the present Treaty, Greece, Turkey and the United Kingdom undertake to consult together with respect to the representations or measures necessary to ensure observance of those provisions.
In so far as common or concerted action may not prove possible, each of the three guaranteeing Powers reserves the right to take action with the sole aim of re-establishing the state of affairs created by the present Treatyâ€

[elpelsarmy]

That last line was the most sensible thing that has been said all afternoon!

[GoonerGod]

What the hell are these Greek Cypriots on about?
How does one man flying a flag of his country make us racist? It reminds you of war and hard times? What a load of rubbish. If I came to the Emirates with a German flag to show my support for Jens... Would all of our English fans be throwing their toys out of their prams because of WW1 and WW2.
I doubt it... yet you're living in the past.
Get over it.. It was a Turkish Cypriot, like myself who was displaying his national flag.
I remember in the East Stand of Highbury there was regularly a Greek Cypriot flag displayed for years, didn't hear any Turks complain did you? Yet at the first site of a TRNC flag the Greeks are jumping up and down in disgust.

[N13Gooner]

The 'TRNC' is of an aggressively forced racially segregated state - which is deemed illegal by the international community.

Your argument is like asking how is someone racist if they flew the flag of the aparthaid government of South Africa or the Nazi Swastika.