Mancwanks (red) A Sun 9th Mar KO 430pm

[Retro Gunner]

Not sure how we are getting more heat than a team sitting in 14th with a negative goal difference after 28games and by all accounts have spent significantly more money than us. We’d be in United’s position if some had their wish.

Maybe because a team in second place should be expected to dominate a team in 15th place and blow them out of the water, and that never happened ?? Maybe when you have a manager still taking about his team competing for the title, then you expect his team to be full of drive and energy and confidence, and when you see none of those things then questions have to be asked ? Honestly if you watched that game Sunday and didnt know beforehand what positions the teams were in, then I suspect you would say afterwards that manure were the team chasing the scousers not us

What are you on about. They were in much worse shape 2months ago and got a draw at Anfield
Even at the height of our dominance under Wenger, we never blew them away and had a pretty poor record there before Arteta.

That’s a pretty disingenuous comment General. When we were at the height of our powers under Wenger, they were at an even greater height of power under Ferguson. When’s the last time we played them when we were 2nd and them 14th?

Applying the whataboutery in your first paragraph, we ought to be nailed on to win at Anfield. Not sure how many of us can see that happening, although by the 10th May, the scousers will have been champions for so long that they’ll be properly on the beach.

Have you looked closely at our league record at Old Trafford for the last 20years by any chance? I recall losing 6-1 there around 2001 and who can forget the 8-2 disaster in 2011 which should've led to Wenger's beheading. Until Arteta, we hadn't won there in the league for 14years. It’s a pretty wretched record which created psychological cloud over any team we took there regardless of what shape they were in. Despite their lowly league position, it's obvious they deploy tactics that’s occasionally succeeded against superior teams this season hence the draw against Liverpool. Not sure how you interpret this as us winning at Anfield. By your logic, shouldn't Liverpool have dispatched them with ease at Anfield? But I get it, when you're drowning in misery, self entitlement and uncontrollably jerk the knee like some of you do, you see everything as negative. I’m doing this again. I’m out

Mate, I like to think that I'm not offensive to people on here, but what the fuck are you talking about??

Regarding our league record at Old Trafford, yes, I'm very aware of it, but you were making the lame point that we almost never did well there even with Wenger's best sides. My point was that the equivalence is false, because as good as we were then, they were the best side in the country season in, season out and it's no surprise we came up short. They are now 14th, so it's hardly an accurate comparison is it? Telling me how badly we've done there over the years was clearly something I wasn't doubting, I was correcting your crafty revisionism.

As for some deep psychological trauma that we carry, how does that explain that we had beaten Utd in the previous 4 league games prior to Sunday?

Then you ask how I interpret Utd's draw at Anfield as meaning we should win there. Well did you genuinely miss the point I was making. It should have been obvious that I was highlighting your schoolboy approach of using their result at Anfield as some justification for us failing to beat them. That's the equivalent of a 10 year old West Ham supporter telling that they're a better side than Arsenal because they beat us recently. You then try to spin it as though bringing up a daft comparison was my idea and not yours. It was your logic my friend, not mine. Again, I was pointing out the flaws in it.

It's something you do constantly, come out with bizarre notions and when it's pointed out, you attempt to gaslight the other poster as though the ridiculous comment was theirs.

I should have learnt my lesson, because I stopped getting drawn in by your provocative and / or odd take posts, but bit on this occasion. Should have known better.

As for many of us failing to worship at the alter of Legohead, be sure to come and remind us all of that when the great man wins a trophy.

[DB10GOONER]

What are you on about. They were in much worse shape 2months ago and got a draw at Anfield
Even at the height of our dominance under Wenger, we never blew them away and had a pretty poor record there before Arteta.

That’s a pretty disingenuous comment General. When we were at the height of our powers under Wenger, they were at an even greater height of power under Ferguson. When’s the last time we played them when we were 2nd and them 14th?

Applying the whataboutery in your first paragraph, we ought to be nailed on to win at Anfield. Not sure how many of us can see that happening, although by the 10th May, the scousers will have been champions for so long that they’ll be properly on the beach.

Have you looked closely at our league record at Old Trafford for the last 20years by any chance? I recall losing 6-1 there around 2001 and who can forget the 8-2 disaster in 2011 which should've led to Wenger's beheading. Until Arteta, we hadn't won there in the league for 14years. It’s a pretty wretched record which created psychological cloud over any team we took there regardless of what shape they were in. Despite their lowly league position, it's obvious they deploy tactics that’s occasionally succeeded against superior teams this season hence the draw against Liverpool. Not sure how you interpret this as us winning at Anfield. By your logic, shouldn't Liverpool have dispatched them with ease at Anfield? But I get it, when you're drowning in misery, self entitlement and uncontrollably jerk the knee like some of you do, you see everything as negative. I’m doing this again. I’m out

For most of the last 20 years manure were one of the top 2 teams in the league, but in the last 3 years they have been shit and you want to laud the cone boy for that ?? No you want to ignore the fact that they have been shite and talk about beating them as though they are like the peak ferguscum teams I'll tell you what was an achievement was - it was GG taking over a club that was going nowhere and dethroning the victims when they were the dominant club in england and europe at the time, and he did it spending a fcuking pittance buying players from stoke and wimbledon. This clown has spent almost £800m and we are regressing now and needs to be shown the door

You love revisionism when it suits you and you do the same with Emery. Where was the club when Graham was sacked? His fate may have been sealed by the bung scandal but he was a dead man walking long before playing awful football and don't be mistaken we paid some of the highest wages back then. The problem with your theory is Fergie left in 2013. That's 12years ago and they haven't been a top team since.

Simply not true.

We were notorious for the low salary cap the board had in place during GG's tenure. Even Lee Dixon initially turned Arsenal down because we offered him less than Stoke did to extend with them!

I'm not sure how old you are mate, but I clearly remember it being in the papers all the time back then that we had problems signing big name players because we would not pay the going rate.

And those were the days when football journalists had a degree of integrity, as far as being accurate, and were actually properly in the know with contacts in each club and did their homework. They weren't modern day piss boy bloggers that just recycle any old shit to score clicks and likes.

Read the player autobiographies. They all mention wages being a problem and were all constantly on to TA6, who as captain negotiated pay rises on behalf of the squad, to "go see George" to try to get even meagre pay rises. This is all well documented.

You acuse others of revisionism and then you post that comment?

As for GG. Given the era, what he achieved, I think he was the best manager we ever had. Yeah it ended bad, but in general that's the way most managers' time at a club ends, usually because it has gone bad. That's usually why it ends. So no shame there. But no one can compare what Arteta has failed to achieve on 800million with what GG achieved on the budget he had.

It should also be remembered that GG had negotiated to resign from the Arsenal in May 95 and the bung scandal gave the club the excuse not to honour the agreed negotiated resignation package he was due.

[Retro Gunner]

That’s a pretty disingenuous comment General. When we were at the height of our powers under Wenger, they were at an even greater height of power under Ferguson. When’s the last time we played them when we were 2nd and them 14th?

Applying the whataboutery in your first paragraph, we ought to be nailed on to win at Anfield. Not sure how many of us can see that happening, although by the 10th May, the scousers will have been champions for so long that they’ll be properly on the beach.

Have you looked closely at our league record at Old Trafford for the last 20years by any chance? I recall losing 6-1 there around 2001 and who can forget the 8-2 disaster in 2011 which should've led to Wenger's beheading. Until Arteta, we hadn't won there in the league for 14years. It’s a pretty wretched record which created psychological cloud over any team we took there regardless of what shape they were in. Despite their lowly league position, it's obvious they deploy tactics that’s occasionally succeeded against superior teams this season hence the draw against Liverpool. Not sure how you interpret this as us winning at Anfield. By your logic, shouldn't Liverpool have dispatched them with ease at Anfield? But I get it, when you're drowning in misery, self entitlement and uncontrollably jerk the knee like some of you do, you see everything as negative. I’m doing this again. I’m out

For most of the last 20 years manure were one of the top 2 teams in the league, but in the last 3 years they have been shit and you want to laud the cone boy for that ?? No you want to ignore the fact that they have been shite and talk about beating them as though they are like the peak ferguscum teams I'll tell you what was an achievement was - it was GG taking over a club that was going nowhere and dethroning the victims when they were the dominant club in england and europe at the time, and he did it spending a fcuking pittance buying players from stoke and wimbledon. This clown has spent almost £800m and we are regressing now and needs to be shown the door

You love revisionism when it suits you and you do the same with Emery. Where was the club when Graham was sacked? His fate may have been sealed by the bung scandal but he was a dead man walking long before playing awful football and don't be mistaken we paid some of the highest wages back then. The problem with your theory is Fergie left in 2013. That's 12years ago and they haven't been a top team since.

Simply not true.

We were notorious for the low salary cap the board had in place during GG's tenure. Even Lee Dixon initially turned Arsenal down because we offered him less than Stoke did to extend with them!

I'm not sure how old you are mate, but I clearly remember it being in the papers all the time back then that we had problems signing big name players because we would not pay the going rate.

And those were the days when football journalists had a degree of integrity, as far as being accurate, and were actually properly in the know with contacts in each club and did their homework. They weren't modern day piss boy bloggers that just recycle any old shit to score clicks and likes.

Read the player autobiographies. They all mention wages being a problem and were all constantly on to TA6, who as captain negotiated pay rises on behalf of the squad, to "go see George" to try to get even meagre pay rises. This is all well documented.

You acuse others of revisionism and then you post that comment?

As for GG. Given the era, what he achieved, I think he was the best manager we ever had. Yeah it ended bad, but in general that's the way most managers' time at a club ends, usually because it has gone bad. That's usually why it ends. So no shame there. But no one can compare what Arteta has failed to achieve on 800million with what GG achieved on the budget he had.

It should also be remembered that GG had negotiated to resign from the Arsenal in May 95 and the bung scandal gave the club the excuse not to honour the agreed negotiated resignation package he was due.

This is bang on. We were never big wage payers and it cost us from the moment players were free to negotiate their own independent contracts. Bosman latter took it to a crazy level.

Our club, full of Old Etonians like the Hill-Woods and Carrs, held the idea that it was reward enough to have the honour to play for The Arsenal and why were these low born types who pull on the jersey looking for money as well.

Off the top of my head I can list a few players (from my time of being old enough to understand such things) that this outdated notion cost us….Charlie George, Ray Kennedy, Liam Brady (gut wrenching and heartbreaking) and Frank Stapleton (another gut wrenching loss) and those last two were absolutely about wages.

I’m not even sure it was different under Wenger….certainly compared to the wages paid at other top clubs…perhaps until his final few years when he started desperately paying sub standard players fucking fortunes.

[Perryashburtongroves]

Simply not true.

We were notorious for the low salary cap the board had in place during GG's tenure. Even Lee Dixon initially turned Arsenal down because we offered him less than Stoke did to extend with them!

I'm not sure how old you are mate, but I clearly remember it being in the papers all the time back then that we had problems signing big name players because we would not pay the going rate.

And those were the days when football journalists had a degree of integrity, as far as being accurate, and were actually properly in the know with contacts in each club and did their homework. They weren't modern day piss boy bloggers that just recycle any old shit to score clicks and likes.

Read the player autobiographies. They all mention wages being a problem and were all constantly on to TA6, who as captain negotiated pay rises on behalf of the squad, to "go see George" to try to get even meagre pay rises. This is all well documented.

You acuse others of revisionism and then you post that comment?

As for GG. Given the era, what he achieved, I think he was the best manager we ever had. Yeah it ended bad, but in general that's the way most managers' time at a club ends, usually because it has gone bad. That's usually why it ends. So no shame there. But no one can compare what Arteta has failed to achieve on 800million with what GG achieved on the budget he had.

It should also be remembered that GG had negotiated to resign from the Arsenal in May 95 and the bung scandal gave the club the excuse not to honour the agreed negotiated resignation package he was due.

This is bang on. We were never big wage payers and it cost us from the moment players were free to negotiate their own independent contracts. Bosman latter took it to a crazy level.

Our club, full of Old Etonians like the Hill-Woods and Carrs, held the idea that it was reward enough to have the honour to play for The Arsenal and why were these low born types who pull on the jersey looking for money as well.

Off the top of my head I can list a few players (from my time of being old enough to understand such things) that this outdated notion cost us….Charlie George, Ray Kennedy, Liam Brady (gut wrenching and heartbreaking) and Frank Stapleton (another gut wrenching loss) and those last two were absolutely about wages.

I’m not even sure it was different under Wenger….certainly compared to the wages paid at other top clubs…perhaps until his final few years when he started desperately paying sub standard players fucking fortunes.
Top

I can't remember whose autobiography it was in but in 1989, we were paying players like Adams, Rocastle and Smith 800 or 900 quid a week. They would then go to England training sessions and hear that John Barnes was on 9 grand a week at the dippers, Bryan Robson and Neil Webb on similar at Manure, Shilton on a fortune at Derby and then bang average players who had won nothing at their clubs, on much more when we had just won the fucking league. I've also read an interview with John Fashanu who said that GG said he wanted him at Arsenal early on but that he was offered less money than he was on at Millwall under him. He said something along the lines of "For the money they were offering, I thought I was going to be doing the job as cleaner or sweeping the terraces." Also, don't forget West Ham on the verge of relegation offered Frank Mcavenney more money to re-join them than sign for us in March 1989.

[gazzatt2]

I went to a dinner where Tony Cottee was the guest speaker
he said when he left West Ham to go to Everton he wanted to come to Arsenal
but Everton offered £2000 a week more than us and he couldn't afford to turn that down

[Limerick Gooner]

That Ayden Heaven we have lost to United for £1m looks really decent. Wankers.

[IW8Goalmachine]

That Ayden Heaven we have lost to United for £1m looks really decent. Wankers.

People slate them for heading to man utd for the money but they are getting the playing time they wouldn't have got if they stayed.

Our loss

[augie]

That Ayden Heaven we have lost to United for £1m looks really decent. Wankers.

People slate them for heading to man utd for the money but they are getting the playing time they wouldn't have got if they stayed.

Our loss

Some people seem to forget or ignore the fact that for all the acclaim Nwanieri has received in recent months, the cone boy only gave him his first start in the league on January 1st - bear in mind we had wingers badly out of form for the previous two months and odeargod has been shit all season, and the cone boy still wouldnt give him a start. In my opinion he doesnt like or trust playing young players

[Limerick Gooner]

That Ayden Heaven we have lost to United for £1m looks really decent. Wankers.

People slate them for heading to man utd for the money but they are getting the playing time they wouldn't have got if they stayed.

Our loss

Some people seem to forget or ignore the fact that for all the acclaim Nwanieri has received in recent months, the cone boy only gave him his first start in the league on January 1st - bear in mind we had wingers badly out of form for the previous two months and odeargod has been shit all season, and the cone boy still wouldnt give him a start. In my opinion he doesnt like or trust playing young players

Jesus. Nwaneri is 17. I’ve seen him come on in games. Last season he came on away to West Ham. I think he is still pretty raw and is quite often anonymous even as effectively first choice winger at the moment. I don’t see why he would have been starting in calendar year 2024.

[General]

That’s a pretty disingenuous comment General. When we were at the height of our powers under Wenger, they were at an even greater height of power under Ferguson. When’s the last time we played them when we were 2nd and them 14th?

Applying the whataboutery in your first paragraph, we ought to be nailed on to win at Anfield. Not sure how many of us can see that happening, although by the 10th May, the scousers will have been champions for so long that they’ll be properly on the beach.

Have you looked closely at our league record at Old Trafford for the last 20years by any chance? I recall losing 6-1 there around 2001 and who can forget the 8-2 disaster in 2011 which should've led to Wenger's beheading. Until Arteta, we hadn't won there in the league for 14years. It’s a pretty wretched record which created psychological cloud over any team we took there regardless of what shape they were in. Despite their lowly league position, it's obvious they deploy tactics that’s occasionally succeeded against superior teams this season hence the draw against Liverpool. Not sure how you interpret this as us winning at Anfield. By your logic, shouldn't Liverpool have dispatched them with ease at Anfield? But I get it, when you're drowning in misery, self entitlement and uncontrollably jerk the knee like some of you do, you see everything as negative. I’m doing this again. I’m out

For most of the last 20 years manure were one of the top 2 teams in the league, but in the last 3 years they have been shit and you want to laud the cone boy for that ?? No you want to ignore the fact that they have been shite and talk about beating them as though they are like the peak ferguscum teams I'll tell you what was an achievement was - it was GG taking over a club that was going nowhere and dethroning the victims when they were the dominant club in england and europe at the time, and he did it spending a fcuking pittance buying players from stoke and wimbledon. This clown has spent almost £800m and we are regressing now and needs to be shown the door

You love revisionism when it suits you and you do the same with Emery. Where was the club when Graham was sacked? His fate may have been sealed by the bung scandal but he was a dead man walking long before playing awful football and don't be mistaken we paid some of the highest wages back then. The problem with your theory is Fergie left in 2013. That's 12years ago and they haven't been a top team since.

Simply not true.

We were notorious for the low salary cap the board had in place during GG's tenure. Even Lee Dixon initially turned Arsenal down because we offered him less than Stoke did to extend with them!

I'm not sure how old you are mate, but I clearly remember it being in the papers all the time back then that we had problems signing big name players because we would not pay the going rate.

And those were the days when football journalists had a degree of integrity, as far as being accurate, and were actually properly in the know with contacts in each club and did their homework. They weren't modern day piss boy bloggers that just recycle any old shit to score clicks and likes.

Read the player autobiographies. They all mention wages being a problem and were all constantly on to TA6, who as captain negotiated pay rises on behalf of the squad, to "go see George" to try to get even meagre pay rises. This is all well documented.

You acuse others of revisionism and then you post that comment?

As for GG. Given the era, what he achieved, I think he was the best manager we ever had. Yeah it ended bad, but in general that's the way most managers' time at a club ends, usually because it has gone bad. That's usually why it ends. So no shame there. But no one can compare what Arteta has failed to achieve on 800million with what GG achieved on the budget he had.

It should also be remembered that GG had negotiated to resign from the Arsenal in May 95 and the bung scandal gave the club the excuse not to honour the agreed negotiated resignation package he was due.

The club paying poor wages was no longer a problem once Dein figured out there was money to be made from a stuctured football operation. I don't want to discredit the man and I believe he was made a scapegoat on a murky practice that was rife in football back then but Graham was backed financially towards the latter part of his tenure. Unfortunately, he'd lost the plot playing awful football and wasting money on mediocre signings. The club wanted to part ways amicably because he had enough credit in the bank but there was no obvious successor, so he was granted a stay of execution until the club couldn't keep a lid on the scandal any longer.
I also disagree with your characterisation that football jounalists had a degree of integrity back then. The papers were out of control and printed a lot of lies with zero accountability. Even rubbish papers like the Star carried a lot of sway in football.
The earliest credible non tabloid report of our true wage bill that I have seen was in 442 around 98 and if my memory serves me right, it was around £25m. I still have the copy somewhere. That's a lot of money built up over a couple of years. Dein put a lot of our players on good money including TA6. He do you think he ended up with Caprice??
It happened much later on, but do you remember the story about how bailiffs went to Edu's house to disconnect his electricity supply because he hadn't paid his bill for months and he showed them his wage slip as proof of how much he was earning. The papers printed it and it was no small amount for an above average player.
If you want to question the factual accuracy of what I wrote, that's fine but we need more than anecdotal evidence. The revisionist comment was aimed at the constant yearning for the past despite evidence to the contrary that things were not great.
I realise he will never be liked by fans like augie, but as far as I'm concerned, Arteta is a brilliant young manager who dug this club out of a deep mess created by the french clown. Every penny he spends is money he helped raise. Unlike back then when Dein and Fiszman injected money into the football operation, the club now spends what it earns and it's obvious the current football landscape is very different to what it was 30years go.

[DB10GOONER]

Have you looked closely at our league record at Old Trafford for the last 20years by any chance? I recall losing 6-1 there around 2001 and who can forget the 8-2 disaster in 2011 which should've led to Wenger's beheading. Until Arteta, we hadn't won there in the league for 14years. It’s a pretty wretched record which created psychological cloud over any team we took there regardless of what shape they were in. Despite their lowly league position, it's obvious they deploy tactics that’s occasionally succeeded against superior teams this season hence the draw against Liverpool. Not sure how you interpret this as us winning at Anfield. By your logic, shouldn't Liverpool have dispatched them with ease at Anfield? But I get it, when you're drowning in misery, self entitlement and uncontrollably jerk the knee like some of you do, you see everything as negative. I’m doing this again. I’m out

For most of the last 20 years manure were one of the top 2 teams in the league, but in the last 3 years they have been shit and you want to laud the cone boy for that ?? No you want to ignore the fact that they have been shite and talk about beating them as though they are like the peak ferguscum teams I'll tell you what was an achievement was - it was GG taking over a club that was going nowhere and dethroning the victims when they were the dominant club in england and europe at the time, and he did it spending a fcuking pittance buying players from stoke and wimbledon. This clown has spent almost £800m and we are regressing now and needs to be shown the door

You love revisionism when it suits you and you do the same with Emery. Where was the club when Graham was sacked? His fate may have been sealed by the bung scandal but he was a dead man walking long before playing awful football and don't be mistaken we paid some of the highest wages back then. The problem with your theory is Fergie left in 2013. That's 12years ago and they haven't been a top team since.

Simply not true.

We were notorious for the low salary cap the board had in place during GG's tenure. Even Lee Dixon initially turned Arsenal down because we offered him less than Stoke did to extend with them!

I'm not sure how old you are mate, but I clearly remember it being in the papers all the time back then that we had problems signing big name players because we would not pay the going rate.

And those were the days when football journalists had a degree of integrity, as far as being accurate, and were actually properly in the know with contacts in each club and did their homework. They weren't modern day piss boy bloggers that just recycle any old shit to score clicks and likes.

Read the player autobiographies. They all mention wages being a problem and were all constantly on to TA6, who as captain negotiated pay rises on behalf of the squad, to "go see George" to try to get even meagre pay rises. This is all well documented.

You acuse others of revisionism and then you post that comment?

As for GG. Given the era, what he achieved, I think he was the best manager we ever had. Yeah it ended bad, but in general that's the way most managers' time at a club ends, usually because it has gone bad. That's usually why it ends. So no shame there. But no one can compare what Arteta has failed to achieve on 800million with what GG achieved on the budget he had.

It should also be remembered that GG had negotiated to resign from the Arsenal in May 95 and the bung scandal gave the club the excuse not to honour the agreed negotiated resignation package he was due.

The club paying poor wages was no longer a problem once Dein figured out there was money to be made from a stuctured football operation. I don't want to discredit the man and I believe he was made a scapegoat on a murky practice that was rife in football back then but Graham was backed financially towards the latter part of his tenure. Unfortunately, he'd lost the plot playing awful football and wasting money on mediocre signings. The club wanted to part ways amicably because he had enough credit in the bank but there was no obvious successor, so he was granted a stay of execution until the club couldn't keep a lid on the scandal any longer.
I also disagree with your characterisation that football jounalists had a degree of integrity back then. The papers were out of control and printed a lot of lies with zero accountability. Even rubbish papers like the Star carried a lot of sway in football.
The earliest credible non tabloid report of our true wage bill that I have seen was in 442 around 98 and if my memory serves me right, it was around £25m. I still have the copy somewhere. That's a lot of money built up over a couple of years. Dein put a lot of our players on good money including TA6. He do you think he ended up with Caprice??
It happened much later on, but do you remember the story about how bailiffs went to Edu's house to disconnect his electricity supply because he hadn't paid his bill for months and he showed them his wage slip as proof of how much he was earning. The papers printed it and it was no small amount for an above average player.
If you want to question the factual accuracy of what I wrote, that's fine but we need more than anecdotal evidence. The revisionist comment was aimed at the constant yearning for the past despite evidence to the contrary that things were not great.
I realise he will never be liked by fans like augie, but as far as I'm concerned, Arteta is a brilliant young manager who dug this club out of a deep mess created by the french clown. Every penny he spends is money he helped raise. Unlike back then when Dein and Fiszman injected money into the football operation, the club now spends what it earns and it's obvious the current football landscape is very different to what it was 30years go.

Every time I engage in debate with you I feel Retro's pain!

I try to be civil, have a reasoned debate, but always regret it (which I honestly think is your main tactic). You constantly move the goalposts. Your responses are disingenuous.

You stated, and I quote, "don't be mistaken we paid some of the highest wages back then". I corrected that untruth by refering to the players' own autobiographies, the players that were actually there, and the media of the time that constantly carried stories of our notorious wage cap, and instead of just admitting you got one wrong, you contradicted me by going off on a spiel about Edu, a player we did not sign until 2001 under an entirely different manager and six years after GG left, and refering to our wage bill in 98, three years after GG left and my information being incorrect in your mind all being somehow related to TA6 banging a model in 1999, four years after GG left!!

Ffs mate, come on. On top of my pointing to the numerous player autobiographies that confirm what I wrote, other posters have backed up my comments with their own knowledge of exactly what happened back then, and yet you still twist the narrative by saying I'm using nothing more than anecdotal evidence, yet you then refer to the laughable 442 as a solid source and talk about them quoting wages AFTER George had left the club!

I can't be arsed trawling the internet for articles but here are a couple of articles that confirm what I wrote:

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/ars ... 91254.html


https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... ory.sport3

Again, the sole point here is you said GG paid some of the top wages back then. I pointed out this was not true.

One last point though. You stated "The revisionist comment was aimed at the constant yearning for the past despite evidence to the contrary that things were not great."

I find that astonishing tbh. GG won 6 major trophies in 8 years on a strict budget spending much less than the other so called big clubs and sometimes less than smaller clubs. Arteta has won one FA Cup, with another manager's team, in 5 years, whilst spending 800million. I know which era I would call successful and "great" and yearn for - and it ain't the current one!

[General]

For most of the last 20 years manure were one of the top 2 teams in the league, but in the last 3 years they have been shit and you want to laud the cone boy for that ?? No you want to ignore the fact that they have been shite and talk about beating them as though they are like the peak ferguscum teams I'll tell you what was an achievement was - it was GG taking over a club that was going nowhere and dethroning the victims when they were the dominant club in england and europe at the time, and he did it spending a fcuking pittance buying players from stoke and wimbledon. This clown has spent almost £800m and we are regressing now and needs to be shown the door

You love revisionism when it suits you and you do the same with Emery. Where was the club when Graham was sacked? His fate may have been sealed by the bung scandal but he was a dead man walking long before playing awful football and don't be mistaken we paid some of the highest wages back then. The problem with your theory is Fergie left in 2013. That's 12years ago and they haven't been a top team since.

Simply not true.

We were notorious for the low salary cap the board had in place during GG's tenure. Even Lee Dixon initially turned Arsenal down because we offered him less than Stoke did to extend with them!

I'm not sure how old you are mate, but I clearly remember it being in the papers all the time back then that we had problems signing big name players because we would not pay the going rate.

And those were the days when football journalists had a degree of integrity, as far as being accurate, and were actually properly in the know with contacts in each club and did their homework. They weren't modern day piss boy bloggers that just recycle any old shit to score clicks and likes.

Read the player autobiographies. They all mention wages being a problem and were all constantly on to TA6, who as captain negotiated pay rises on behalf of the squad, to "go see George" to try to get even meagre pay rises. This is all well documented.

You acuse others of revisionism and then you post that comment?

As for GG. Given the era, what he achieved, I think he was the best manager we ever had. Yeah it ended bad, but in general that's the way most managers' time at a club ends, usually because it has gone bad. That's usually why it ends. So no shame there. But no one can compare what Arteta has failed to achieve on 800million with what GG achieved on the budget he had.

It should also be remembered that GG had negotiated to resign from the Arsenal in May 95 and the bung scandal gave the club the excuse not to honour the agreed negotiated resignation package he was due.

The club paying poor wages was no longer a problem once Dein figured out there was money to be made from a stuctured football operation. I don't want to discredit the man and I believe he was made a scapegoat on a murky practice that was rife in football back then but Graham was backed financially towards the latter part of his tenure. Unfortunately, he'd lost the plot playing awful football and wasting money on mediocre signings. The club wanted to part ways amicably because he had enough credit in the bank but there was no obvious successor, so he was granted a stay of execution until the club couldn't keep a lid on the scandal any longer.
I also disagree with your characterisation that football jounalists had a degree of integrity back then. The papers were out of control and printed a lot of lies with zero accountability. Even rubbish papers like the Star carried a lot of sway in football.
The earliest credible non tabloid report of our true wage bill that I have seen was in 442 around 98 and if my memory serves me right, it was around £25m. I still have the copy somewhere. That's a lot of money built up over a couple of years. Dein put a lot of our players on good money including TA6. He do you think he ended up with Caprice??
It happened much later on, but do you remember the story about how bailiffs went to Edu's house to disconnect his electricity supply because he hadn't paid his bill for months and he showed them his wage slip as proof of how much he was earning. The papers printed it and it was no small amount for an above average player.
If you want to question the factual accuracy of what I wrote, that's fine but we need more than anecdotal evidence. The revisionist comment was aimed at the constant yearning for the past despite evidence to the contrary that things were not great.
I realise he will never be liked by fans like augie, but as far as I'm concerned, Arteta is a brilliant young manager who dug this club out of a deep mess created by the french clown. Every penny he spends is money he helped raise. Unlike back then when Dein and Fiszman injected money into the football operation, the club now spends what it earns and it's obvious the current football landscape is very different to what it was 30years go.

Every time I engage in debate with you I feel Retro's pain!

I try to be civil, have a reasoned debate, but always regret it (which I honestly think is your main tactic). You constantly move the goalposts. Your responses are disingenuous.

You stated, and I quote, "don't be mistaken we paid some of the highest wages back then". I corrected that untruth by refering to the players' own autobiographies, the players that were actually there, and the media of the time that constantly carried stories of our notorious wage cap, and instead of just admitting you got one wrong, you contradicted me by going off on a spiel about Edu, a player we did not sign until 2001 under an entirely different manager and six years after GG left, and refering to our wage bill in 98, three years after GG left and my information being incorrect in your mind all being somehow related to TA6 banging a model in 1999, four years after GG left!!

Ffs mate, come on. On top of my pointing to the numerous player autobiographies that confirm what I wrote, other posters have backed up my comments with their own knowledge of exactly what happened back then, and yet you still twist the narrative by saying I'm using nothing more than anecdotal evidence, yet you then refer to the laughable 442 as a solid source and talk about them quoting wages AFTER George had left the club!

I can't be arsed trawling the internet for articles but here are a couple of articles that confirm what I wrote:

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/ars ... 91254.html


https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... ory.sport3

Again, the sole point here is you said GG paid some of the top wages back then. I pointed out this was not true.

One last point though. You stated "The revisionist comment was aimed at the constant yearning for the past despite evidence to the contrary that things were not great."

I find that astonishing tbh. GG won 6 major trophies in 8 years on a strict budget spending much less than the other so called big clubs and sometimes less than smaller clubs. Arteta has won one FA Cup, with another manager's team, in 5 years, whilst spending 800million. I know which era I would call successful and "great" and yearn for - and it ain't the current one!

*Quote tower alert

I’m pointing out to you that towards the latter part of Graham’s reign, players started earning top wages because Dein overhauled the archaic system. This is an acknowledgment that whilst poor wages might have been a historical issue, it was ultimately resolved and players were put on lucrative contracts. Quite ironic that Keown returned for a lot more money than he was sold for. Graham was no longer pleading poverty, and we signed Hartson and Helder for millions. Unfortunately it was too little too late for him but the ensuing years confirmed the club’s position as a top wage payer hence the examples I gave you.
You see everything as black and white, and that’s the problem. See no evil fear no evil

[DB10GOONER]

You love revisionism when it suits you and you do the same with Emery. Where was the club when Graham was sacked? His fate may have been sealed by the bung scandal but he was a dead man walking long before playing awful football and don't be mistaken we paid some of the highest wages back then. The problem with your theory is Fergie left in 2013. That's 12years ago and they haven't been a top team since.

Simply not true.

We were notorious for the low salary cap the board had in place during GG's tenure. Even Lee Dixon initially turned Arsenal down because we offered him less than Stoke did to extend with them!

I'm not sure how old you are mate, but I clearly remember it being in the papers all the time back then that we had problems signing big name players because we would not pay the going rate.

And those were the days when football journalists had a degree of integrity, as far as being accurate, and were actually properly in the know with contacts in each club and did their homework. They weren't modern day piss boy bloggers that just recycle any old shit to score clicks and likes.

Read the player autobiographies. They all mention wages being a problem and were all constantly on to TA6, who as captain negotiated pay rises on behalf of the squad, to "go see George" to try to get even meagre pay rises. This is all well documented.

You acuse others of revisionism and then you post that comment?

As for GG. Given the era, what he achieved, I think he was the best manager we ever had. Yeah it ended bad, but in general that's the way most managers' time at a club ends, usually because it has gone bad. That's usually why it ends. So no shame there. But no one can compare what Arteta has failed to achieve on 800million with what GG achieved on the budget he had.

It should also be remembered that GG had negotiated to resign from the Arsenal in May 95 and the bung scandal gave the club the excuse not to honour the agreed negotiated resignation package he was due.

The club paying poor wages was no longer a problem once Dein figured out there was money to be made from a stuctured football operation. I don't want to discredit the man and I believe he was made a scapegoat on a murky practice that was rife in football back then but Graham was backed financially towards the latter part of his tenure. Unfortunately, he'd lost the plot playing awful football and wasting money on mediocre signings. The club wanted to part ways amicably because he had enough credit in the bank but there was no obvious successor, so he was granted a stay of execution until the club couldn't keep a lid on the scandal any longer.
I also disagree with your characterisation that football jounalists had a degree of integrity back then. The papers were out of control and printed a lot of lies with zero accountability. Even rubbish papers like the Star carried a lot of sway in football.
The earliest credible non tabloid report of our true wage bill that I have seen was in 442 around 98 and if my memory serves me right, it was around £25m. I still have the copy somewhere. That's a lot of money built up over a couple of years. Dein put a lot of our players on good money including TA6. He do you think he ended up with Caprice??
It happened much later on, but do you remember the story about how bailiffs went to Edu's house to disconnect his electricity supply because he hadn't paid his bill for months and he showed them his wage slip as proof of how much he was earning. The papers printed it and it was no small amount for an above average player.
If you want to question the factual accuracy of what I wrote, that's fine but we need more than anecdotal evidence. The revisionist comment was aimed at the constant yearning for the past despite evidence to the contrary that things were not great.
I realise he will never be liked by fans like augie, but as far as I'm concerned, Arteta is a brilliant young manager who dug this club out of a deep mess created by the french clown. Every penny he spends is money he helped raise. Unlike back then when Dein and Fiszman injected money into the football operation, the club now spends what it earns and it's obvious the current football landscape is very different to what it was 30years go.

Every time I engage in debate with you I feel Retro's pain!

I try to be civil, have a reasoned debate, but always regret it (which I honestly think is your main tactic). You constantly move the goalposts. Your responses are disingenuous.

You stated, and I quote, "don't be mistaken we paid some of the highest wages back then". I corrected that untruth by refering to the players' own autobiographies, the players that were actually there, and the media of the time that constantly carried stories of our notorious wage cap, and instead of just admitting you got one wrong, you contradicted me by going off on a spiel about Edu, a player we did not sign until 2001 under an entirely different manager and six years after GG left, and refering to our wage bill in 98, three years after GG left and my information being incorrect in your mind all being somehow related to TA6 banging a model in 1999, four years after GG left!!

Ffs mate, come on. On top of my pointing to the numerous player autobiographies that confirm what I wrote, other posters have backed up my comments with their own knowledge of exactly what happened back then, and yet you still twist the narrative by saying I'm using nothing more than anecdotal evidence, yet you then refer to the laughable 442 as a solid source and talk about them quoting wages AFTER George had left the club!

I can't be arsed trawling the internet for articles but here are a couple of articles that confirm what I wrote:

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/ars ... 91254.html


https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... ory.sport3

Again, the sole point here is you said GG paid some of the top wages back then. I pointed out this was not true.

One last point though. You stated "The revisionist comment was aimed at the constant yearning for the past despite evidence to the contrary that things were not great."

I find that astonishing tbh. GG won 6 major trophies in 8 years on a strict budget spending much less than the other so called big clubs and sometimes less than smaller clubs. Arteta has won one FA Cup, with another manager's team, in 5 years, whilst spending 800million. I know which era I would call successful and "great" and yearn for - and it ain't the current one!

*Quote tower alert

I’m pointing out to you that towards the latter part of Graham’s reign, players started earning top wages because Dein overhauled the archaic system. This is an acknowledgment that whilst poor wages might have been a historical issue, it was ultimately resolved and players were put on lucrative contracts. Quite ironic that Keown returned for a lot more money than he was sold for. Graham was no longer pleading poverty, and we signed Hartson and Helder for millions. Unfortunately it was too little too late for him but the ensuing years confirmed the club’s position as a top wage payer hence the examples I gave you.
You see everything as black and white, and that’s the problem. See no evil fear no evil

Deffo quote tower alert.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one mate.

[OneBardGooner]

[Retro Gunner]

Every time I engage in debate with you I feel Retro's pain!



He’s all yours DB, I can’t do it anymore. Each time I tell myself “never again”, I get drawn in and bite. Not anymore.

I’ll debate things politely with anyone and while our passions about the club give rise to strong opinions, I only get out of my pram if I’m abused first. I should point out that General does not get abusive. He has other means.

General has some good points to make and he’s entitled to think highly of Arteta if he chooses, but I can’t have the gaslighting and bad faith responses if one happens to disagree with him.

You now carry the mantle my friend….you are our hero.