It’s not the 1980s anymore (20/7)

[Cus Geezer]

I like it that kids and women go to the team, can watch the match, and feel safe

They did that too on the North Bank in the 80s

And you're talking to me about swallowing the media line?

[bookanengineer]

Those quiet fans sitting in club level, at least they're trying to get an interest, let them in, encourage them, the more people that support Arsenal the better, stop slagging them off.

It's a shame their interest doesn't override that of getting hold of some free drinks at half time.

When that happens maybe I might consider cutting them some slack

Agreed. But there are two types of "fan" in the club level. There are some genuine new fans, with money, whose only means of getting to the matches was by jumping the season ticket and buying these seats.

Secondly, there are people up there on a corporate jolly. I know that there are companies up there such as IBM and HP, who have purchased large groups of club-level seats. Those seats are given out to employees as corporate jollies. Many of these people have no interest in football whatsoever, they're there for an experience. The next week they might end up at a corporate rugby match. I got the opportunity to do this once last season, I was with these people, and their mentality was that they were disappointed with the atmosphere! They wanted to be entertained themselves by the occasion, they didn't want to create the atmosphere, they wanted to have an experience because of it.

I don't know who you can slag off about this. The club needs to fill those seats. We could all slag off the board, but if we were giving those seats to standard joe's, the stadium would be unsustainable. We've got a fantastic stadium, we have to accept some down-sides to that. What the club should try to do, is find more genuine fans with money, and cut out the group ticketing to large companies, who are never going to give their tickets to fans.

[bookanengineer]

I like it that kids and women go to the team, can watch the match, and feel safe

They did that too on the North Bank in the 80s

And you're talking to me about swallowing the media line?

That's not true and you know it, there was never the proportion of children and women that there are today. All I know was that it was a difficult experience at that age, the number of times as a young kid I can remember being in scary crush-scenarios, especially at away games, it was scary for the adults - but being down low and stuck half way up some dirty bastards ass at the same time didn't help. It's made difficult now when everyone stands up in front of kids trying to watch a game. The same for older fans. Standing up doesn't make any difference to atmosphere, I don't believe it, when we're away from home, it's a different atmosphere as has been pointed out, and we're still seated. Celebrating goals is less entertaining in seated stadia, that's where the advantages end as far as I'm concerned.

[bookanengineer]

You said a couple of posts ago that maybe we should ask the opposition to come and play the way we want, well, that's a debate worth having. There's either a problem with Arsenal, or a problem with the opposition. The opposition have never been less adventurous against us, more so against us than any other team. We either need to blame these teams for ruining football, or do something different ourselves, ie. Encourage the opposition to attack us.

What the fuck are you talking about.

Why should opposing teams play the way that suits Arsenal and Arsenal fans, what's in it for them, they're hear for the points.

When is realism gonna enter your head boyo?

Because they also have fans, and their fans need entertaining. Why do people flock to see Arsenal, why do we fill our stadium each week and have massive waiting lists for season tickets, because we play great football. Who wants to watch Bolton throw into the box from the half-way line, not the people of Bolton for one.

But anyway, no I'm not saying we have to expect them to play the way we want, just that we're going to have to look to give more possession away. Against crap teams, we should play with more attacking players, at the cost of the midfield, let the opposition dominate. With Cesc, we often never lose the ball, but it's slow, we don't need that level of midfield quality. We have to try and encourage the opposition out of their penalty box, to make them think they can get more than a point.

[Cus Geezer]

That's not true and you know it, there was never the proportion of children and women that there are today

That is fucking true I was there.

There is not a greater number of children at Arsenal than in the 80s, children used to get through for next to nothing at the discretion of the men on the turnstile because they take up next to nothing on a terrace. It costs a fucking bomb to take kids to see Arsenal today.

And there may well have been less women at Arsenal than today because there were less women interested in football then. Less of a media circus that would have drawn them in. After all name me a WAG from the 80s, maybe Suzanne Dando and Leslie Ashe but this wasn't the central core of their profile like Coleen McLoughlin and Posh Spice.

[Cus Geezer]

Most of the front of the North Bank was kids, no-one was stuck up anyone's arse. What's your next cliche gonna be, someone peeing in your pocket perhaps?

[Cus Geezer]

OK now back from work and I can't give my full and undivided attention to scrutinizing Mr Joe post-90's 'contribution' to the thread.

Everyone loves a great atmosphere, but let’s get it straight, this is football, it's an entertainment

And a great atmosphere is entertainment.

we want great football. It's not the 80's any more

Do you have an A' Level in sales rhetoric or what?

[/quote] I didn't ask for peace and quiet, I said we all love a good atmosphere. I'm personally a louder fan, that's how I let out my frustration and passion, but I don't castigate others for wanting to sit and watch the match intensely.


Then what's your fucking problem then? First of all you voiced that you're miffed by such people in that 'you wouldn't do that in a theatre luvvies so why do it here?', now it's 'I'm one of you really'

The beef from some people on this thread and some writers in the Gooner is that people who want to chant and show a bit of passion have got people getting stewards over to sort them out. That was the jist of the thread yesterday when you treated us to your 'contribution'.

It's not that we're forcing the quiet ones to sing it's that we are being forced to be quiet.

[/quote] at 3-0 up and coasting, we don't need, and won't generate, an incredible atmosphere

What do you mean don't 'need' an atmosphere?

Atmosphere at a Football match is like sex with Rachel Stevens, yes it is possible to carry on living without it, but only a fucking moron would turn it down flat.

[/quote] Cuz Geezer, you point to the GG area, but we were incapable of dominating teams in any way recognisable to what we do today. If we'd won 5-0 under GG, we probably still wouldn't have had the level of possession that we'd have with the current team

Possession had bugger all to do with it, it was the joy of being 3-0, 4-0 or 5-0 up that made the atmosphere. And considering that Arsenal scored 92 goals in 91/92 that wasn't as rare as you'd think. The current Joe post-90s 'expect' that, as has been pointed out to me by friends who support other teams 'It's like your lot can't even enjoy what you've got anymore'.

[/quote] I'm not Joe post-90, I was standing on the North Bank from the age of 6, and I can tell you that when the only thing you can see through the sea of heads was the Clock on the Clock-end

There's little here to tell me that you're not a Joe post-90, and you're just inventing some history of football supporting in the 80s. Your inability to know that getting into Arsenal in the 80s was a lot less cheaper than £10, as pointed out by the ed stands out a mile. If my ticket stub from Arsenal v Aston Villa on Sep 3 1988 is correct, East Stand lower was £5.50, so that would make the terraces even cheaper than that.

And I too was standing on the North Bank from such a young age and don't remember many adults standing at the front behind the goal who weren't accompanying children, the 'top boys' usually stood at the back.

[Cus Geezer]

Oh and by the way Joe (I know that's not your name but it's what I'm calling you)

Your claim about more children going than in the 80s is complete bull shit, as shown here


[/url] http://www.sportingo.com/football/how_p ... /1001,3604
and shown in this quote [quote] Acco ... [/quote]

[Cus Geezer]

Arsenal doesn't belong to you, and it doesn't belong to me, and it'll go on long beyond all of us

No pal, Arsenal these days belongs to whoever can stump up the cash, that's why it stinks.

I love all breeds of people being able to go to the match and bond in this shared experience, that's what football is about.

What about older people? Are there many over 65 in this wonderful rainbow nation at the 'Emerites' these days?

After all a friend of the family I was with at the final match in front of the North Bank, his supporting of Arsenal went back to the 30s. He was a season ticket holder throughout the 70s and 80s and yet when I saw him again at my dad's 60th birthday, despite his love of Arsenal not diminishing one inch, when I asked him if he'd been to the Emerites replied that he hadn't and wasn't likely to because of the cost and difficulty of obtaining. And yet people who worked in corporate banks who I knew, who had no particular passion for football, let alone Arsenal could all get in the club level and their free beer.

Seeing people over 60 was also a regular occurence at Highbury on the terraces in the 80s, so if it 'wasn't safe for women and children' why were they there.

Or are you going to give me another bullshit line about how many more OAPs are here now?


Let's be honest Joe, you just get a hard on about how many different types of 'middle class' people are at the Arsenal, whether they are women or children or Eskimos you could care less, as long as they're not 'dirty oikes' or whatever it is that you call working class people.

[Cus Geezer]

It's not about a ground full of working class men, that's bollocks, it's the past and it wasn't that great, it ended up with people crushed to death, I can't believe there are still people clinging to that world with rose-tinted glasses

What was it about their 'working classness' that lead to people being crushed.

After all you haven't mentioned terracing or fencing here at all have you.

Maybe a freudian slip that's a little insight into his way of thinking folks.

[kheoz]

firstly let me start by saying this is my first post and that in itself should sum up what the article has driven me to say, i regularly peruse the gooner as i find intresting artciles and i am in full support of improvement in the atmosphere.

the article seems to embody all of what is wrong in the modern game, since when has it been proper to go to a game as a supporter and remain silent, what part of supporter do you not understand. i have attended two games at the emirates and both were contrasting my first being the north london derby vs the scum, the atmosphere then was impressive and i was one of the people in my section urgin others to get up and support their team if not in song merely through standing to show support, the stewards who i find completely useless were not keen on this, *word censored*. i was informed later that the improved atmosphere i witnessed that day was not a regular appearance it was simply that many red members such as myself had gotten a good allocation and some of the new blood had injected a good kick into the ground. this is in no way an insult to those who attend every game and show thier vocal support but to those slightly better off who deem singing as below them and look at you as a mere cretin should you attempt to do so.

i attended a second game against blackburn that was incredibly disapointing as much of the ground was empty and it was an earlyish kick off. what i gauged however was the lack of motivation anyone had to show support for our boys.

Back to the crux of the discussion, you claim that to be entertained you must not take your eyes off the game and must be in total silence. You my friend are a tosser. I have been to many countries attended a variety of games and derbies to say that the team does not wish to hear the fans is deeply stupid. The 12th man as the crowd is known in many countries Argentina's Boca La Doce are a famous example and their support no doubt trascends into the team as we see maradona time and time again say that the supporters are what tie him to the club. Perhaps if we had more die hard wont sit down fans the Thierry would have not sulked of to Barca where if you look at his presentation he was clearly impressed with the multitude that greeted him.

I am not suggesting that we force people to sing but i would like the club to allocate and end to those vocal supporters i.e in ultra style, a curva nord of sorts. i have been to Germany where some clubs Dortmund i visited, have an area that can be transferd to become a standing area and thus improve the atmosphere.

I want the best for my club and im sure you all do and if that means you have to stand and sing a bit for those men who have been running for 90 minutes then by all means cant we do so. Can we show players like Fabregas how much he means to us with a banner. It is not much but improving our atmosphere would not boost our club but our reputation. there is nothing a player fears more than a hostile environment like the wall of noise at anfield on a champions league night or the whistling in europe when the opposing team is in possesion.

Cus Geezer thank you for appreciating how much a fans loyalty when shown to his club can boost their performance not dampen it. We need more vocal supporters otherwise we'll become a fulham fc where sitting down in silence is the norm.

[Cus Geezer]

Thank you very much Khoez, and welcome to the forum. I dreaded that I was going to be a lone voice on this thread, rather like trying to start a chant in the club level surrounded by HSBC's corporate guests.

As for the Blackburn game you mentioned, I was at that game too and what a sorry shower the Arsenal support was. True Blackburn had no intention to play, as Cesc pointed out to Sparky Hughes at full time, but the crowd gave even less.

I'm reminded of Arsenal v QPR in the 4th round in 1990 which was similar in that it was a 0-0, had it been a boxing match the ref would have stopped it and awarded Arsenal the match. QPR had no intention to play either, once it got to the last seven minutes or so, Dave Seamen (then of the Hoops) seemed content to just pass it back and forth between his defenders (pre-back pass rule).

Despite this the North Bank was on full song urging the winner, how we could have done with that against Blackburn this year. Had it still ended 0-0 we could have at least got a decent atmosphere for the £40 odd paid (you see Joe, people pay to be entertained today)

[Cus Geezer]

I am not suggesting that we force people to sing but i would like the club to allocate and end to those vocal supporters i.e in ultra style, a curva nord of sorts. i have been to Germany where some clubs Dortmund i visited, have an area that can be transferd to become a standing area and thus improve the atmosphere.

You see with terracing we never needed to do this, it was already segregated in such a way, those who wanted to make a noise went to the North Bank or Clock End, those who didn't went to the seats. Can you get that into your thick Bourgeois head Joe - HIGHBURY IN THE 80S WAS NOT AN ALL STANDING ARENA YOU HAD A FUCKING CHOICE

NOW WE HAVE NONE!

And why is it that when we're talking about creating a singing end we are naming one overseas and saying 'let's all emulate that', we had one in the 80s, it was called the North Bank. And funnily enough most of these foreign clubs supporters looked on and said 'let's emulate that'.

Also another point.

If anyone links terracing to hooliganism

a) They'd be wrong because it disappeared long before England went all seater in 1994

b) It was never a particularly huge problem at Highbury, after all why did we never have any fencing, even when coerced by the FA with a threat to not hold any future FA Cup Semi Finals. Ken Friar has even admitted that we never had it because 'we never had the need to'

c) In the 80s clubs knew nothing about who came through the turnstiles, in today's world they know everything, from the address, card details, e-mail address and telephone numbers of who comes through. If a game doesn't sell out I get e-mails from the Arsenal telling me about 'tickets still available ready for you to snap up'.

One of the biggest things that's killed the violence at Football matches is the ability to effectively ban any future troublemakers from getting future tickets, this will still be with us if terracing comes back.


The main reason for not bringing it back is because people like the author of the article think it vulgar.

[RocastleRock]

You want atmosphere guys... go to away games, thats where its at.. possibly because you get more of a hardcore supporter willing to go up and down the country for his team.. ive lost my voice many atime following arsenal away from home, through singing an shouting.

I personally think with home games your always going to need a stiring performance on the pitch to ignite the crowd, or when its a big game with alot at stake. Thats just football in this country, same applys to man utd an newcastle and the rest. You can here a pin drop and old trafford when they are 3 or 4 goals up, listen to the crowd when they need one goal to win something or qualify for somthing.. its electric.

[kheoz]

i would definetly be up for away games yet at the same time one has to be a member of the away scheme but hopefully il sort it this season. the atmosphere ive been told is very gd away from home those of my friends who went to anfield for the CC said it was breathtaking and not just winning massively.

i also agree again with geezer that hooliganism show little if any links to terracing and it is simply through media manipulation many have come to believe so. I know a couple of rough heads and the last thing they want to do is kick off in the stadium cos it means they loose thier season ticket. cctv and all has made it nigh on impossible for hooliganism to exist.

having designated zones would also help those who didnt feel the need to sing or would rather sit with families and such. its been done and its worked so why not here. also i must point out im not a fan of all that quadrant bullshit i mean were a club we should name the stands after legends not colours, id much rather walk into the tony adams end than the blue quadrant.

thank you for the welcome btw