Warning: To the AKB crew!!

[Belfast Boy]

. For me, that type of poster has spoiled this place.
I still read it regularly (most days) but whereas I used to think "I've got something to add to that" I now think "I can't be arsed with wasting my breath". Shame really, I liked it here.

Sorry to hear that Spudmasher, I agree that there has been too many of that type of post, the people responsible for them have no doubt multiplied due to the increased and IMO OTT negativity on here which is as you said is down to the recent performances!

It's entirely possible however that they have been reading this forum for quite some time without participating and they probably feel exactly the same way toward the ADoesn'tKB, in other words "I'd love to have a debate with that guy but I can't be arsed gettin drawn into a long drawn out argument where nothin new is going to be said"

So while I wholeheartedly agree they'd be better off sayin nothin particularly as they haven't earned their spurs (sorry) yet they get pissed off with the sheer amount of negativity and IMO even more with the amount of people practising it and instead of trying to take on the virtually the whole forum they utter that, that shall not be said!

It's not hard to see that everyone is a bit peeved at the moment especially it seems over the last couple of days at having the same debates, and I tried to explain these reasons about 2 weeks ago in the "I hate Gooners" thread which got quite heated and yet again in "Ungrateful, spoilt fans be careful what you wish for" and yet again in the Stoke protest" thread!

Yet I'm still waiting for someone to have a proper debate with me to decide whether or not we are indeed being fickle as no-one but no-one will ever admit that they are it's always someone else, the only person to even try and respond was Rob when he said that the Mancs were getting restless after 2 yrs but we've had to wait 4 yrs but a simple answer to that is Ferguson never built a stadium in that time!

Please understand Spuddy I'm not tryin to defend those who go f off and support blah blah but at the same time we can't go oh that's it the forum's fucked shame used to be a good spot, the debate has to move on and the real bone of contention which will hardly go away anytime soon is are we being fickle or unappreciative or not cos if we are and I'm afraid IMO the facts back that up, that makes us as bad as the Mancs who tried to force AF out of his job a few years ago!

Like I said Spud I don't know whether you've read any of the threads I've just mentioned but I hope you do or others do cos I thought I raised some valid points and hopefully it'll prove to be a way of confronting the issue and get the loyalty thing out of the way once and for all!

Some people might even admit or realise that they have been harsh on AW but will say fuck it that's the frustration boiling over and I'll never change or thought it was necessary to get the message across that we've been unhappy with some of the performances cos none of those things are to be ashamed of it's the name calling and "you're a fan not a supporter" digs that are causing all the grief!

[OneBardGooner]

Aye! Indeed Tis the Summer of our discontent
Our eyes toward the ground
Its hallowed and emerald hue
Instead of loftier heights
And the brighter things of which we dream.
Though our hearts may seem quiet to the listening world
They rage with every breath
Made heavy by the stones of defeat
Yet still our blood is fast
Sent quick by our ire
And the fire of our passion
That cannot die
And shall never waver,
For tis merely a chapter of moments
whose pages will turn and fade
In the celebrations of our victories
That shall be ours in days to come
Once more we shall know that sweet, sweet taste
Whose nectar is but waiting for our tongues
To sing in declaration
Of that we love.
Arsenal F C

'OneBardGooner'

[I Hate Hleb]

What exactly is it that you want people to debate you over Belfast Boy? The fact that we haven't got as much money to spend as Man Utd and Chelsea because we've built a new stadium (with Wenger's expressed consent) whilst they haven't? Because we all know that.

Yet that doesn't excuse the lies that came out of the club's representatives' mouths when they claimed moving ground wouldn't impact negatively on the transfer budget or on our ability to challenge; or that there was X amount of millions for the manager to spend, but he chooses not to use it as he has faith in the players and doesn't want to 'kill the likes of Diaby and Denilson'!!

Or is the debating point that when some fans take it upon themselves to protest their displeasure at what their manager is doing, ala your example of Ferguson a few years back (and it was hardly the majority having a pop at him), it means fans of that club are fickle? Because we all know that's not true and can't be applied across the board. Indeed, you could even argue that protest proved to be a successful policy as Ferguson then went out and strengthened the squad and the result has been success galore!!

And before you come back with 'yeah, but at what cost?' To be honest, I don't give a feck if the Glaziers leave United up to their eyesballs in debt because such is the prestege of that institution, some other billionaire will come and rescue them. Or for that matter, even whether Roman Abrahmovic is on an ego trip or in it for the long term at Chelsea.

What I do care about is whether the manager and Board at our club are doing everything possible to make us competetive given the circumstances, and in my opinion the answer to that is an empathic no. And if at anytime over the past couple of years you or others have ever thought 'if only we could get a couple of experienced players to go with our youngsters to really push us on', then the answer from you lot would have to be the same.

Anyway, as you well know, few - if any - Arsenal fans were/are asking that the club spend tens of millions of pounds on players like United and Chelsea have. However what most of us 'critics' have consistently said is that the strength of the squad and balance of the side wasn't right and required additional signings to make it so. Wenger decided otherwise, convinced that the players he had would prove him right in May. Well, they didn't!! And we're entitled to moan about it without having to endure comments like 'feck off and support....' or being called 'JCL's' when the majority of the critics on here have been gooners for over 30 years - unlike, I would estimate, those chucking the accusations!!

[OneBardGooner]

"However what most of us 'critics' have consistently said is that the strength of the squad and balance of the side wasn't right and required additional signings to make it so"

That's 100% true - What I find frustrating and am damn angry X100 at is that - Either AW hasn't been able to fund any new signings to solve that and is not saying so - In order to not let people know just how poor the transfer kitty is and other kinds of internal battles in the boardroom etc - or he hasn't 'seen' the imbalance or there is something else going on which prevents him from making signings to address the imbalance (weakness).....

We ALL know he's intelligent and can spot a future genius at 1,000 paces - even when many cannot - But, it feels to me like there is 'something' we are not being told - and that he could spill the beans - but due to his loyal nature won't OR it is all down to him.....But with the shennanagins of the board this past year - I get the feeling AW is caught between rock and hard place and is doing all he can with what he has and knows is and willbe available to him - in terms of money,(transfer kitty, wage structure etc)

He has always seemed to be honest with us before - yes, he keeps his cards close to his chest - which is natural - But something else beyond all that is going on....maybe there is about to be some kind of BIG change on Boardroom level - or some kind of change that will Greatly Affect All Aspect and areas of the club!?? Who Knows - But deafening silence that we endured last Summer when w were all left dismayed by the signings / lack of - Cannot be repeated this summer....it's just too torturous and unfair.

What I am Hopeful of is that considering he has publicly admitted we need new (experienced/quality) players and that he intends to bring in new blood...that They are available a and we can actually afford them - especially as the kind of players we need - who can match the qulity we already have - are not easy to come by - and are not cheap......one thing's for sure IF they are out there he will know where and who they are....it's all down to the ole wonga (again)

[Belfast Boy]

What exactly is it that you want people to debate you over Belfast Boy? The fact that we haven't got as much money to spend as Man Utd and Chelsea because we've built a new stadium (with Wenger's expressed consent) whilst they haven't? Because we all know that.

I would like to get somethin straight from the outset IHH I AM NOT AN APOLOGIST FOR AW OR THE BOARD, I am merely trying to get back to debating the core issue rather than name calling which apparently has people deserting the board but IMO there is far too much negativity on this board which is disproportionate to the reality and I am trying to restore some balance and while of course everyone sez they're aware that we don't have as much money as ManUre, it appears to little more than lip service when it's closely followed by "but where's the trophies???"

Yet that doesn't excuse the lies that came out of the club's representatives' mouths when they claimed moving ground wouldn't impact negatively on the transfer budget or on our ability to challenge; or that there was X amount of millions for the manager to spend, but he chooses not to use it as he has faith in the players and doesn't want to 'kill the likes of Diaby and Denilson'!!

You know as well as I do that the financial side of the game has changed beyond all recognition since The Grove was conceived in the late 90's and it seemed obvious to me that AW tried a different route in order to even the playing field and it probably hasn't been as successful as he would've liked but if it was easy everyone would do it and even tho he has made mistakes which he has for the first time owned up to and hence will hopefully do something to address them surely you can see that he had to stick with the players for a while, I'm frustrated too but I'm not angry at AW cos I know he has devoted his entire life to the club since he came and any mistakes are honest ones, and as in the rest of life you sometimes learn more in defeat than victory and the lessons learned will IMO stand AW and the club/players in good stead for the future - I hope!

Or is the debating point that when some fans take it upon themselves to protest their displeasure at what their manager is doing, ala your example of Ferguson a few years back (and it was hardly the majority having a pop at him), it means fans of that club are fickle? Because we all know that's not true and can't be applied across the board. Indeed, you could even argue that protest proved to be a successful policy as Ferguson then went out and strengthened the squad and the result has been success galore!!

I never said that all fans of any club are fickle in fact I clearly said nobody seems to own up to being fickle, and the reason Ferguson got all that money to strengthen is cos he no longer had to plead with or to answer to shareholders as the Glazers had complete control and they realised very quickly that if they delivered trophies then they could do whatever they wanted to Manchester Utd and hardly anybody would say a thing now I don't know about you IHH but that speaks volumes in terms of fickleness to me!

And before you come back with 'yeah, but at what cost?' To be honest, I don't give a feck if the Glaziers leave United up to their eyesballs in debt because such is the prestege of that institution, some other billionaire will come and rescue them. Or for that matter, even whether Roman Abrahmovic is on an ego trip or in it for the long term at Chelsea.

You are absolutely correct IHH but it's a completely moot point!

What I do care about is whether the manager and Board at our club are doing everything possible to make us competetive given the circumstances, and in my opinion the answer to that is an empathic no. And if at anytime over the past couple of years you or others have ever thought 'if only we could get a couple of experienced players to go with our youngsters to really push us on', then the answer from you lot would have to be the same.

Hands up, yes it would, and even Patrick Collins who some accused of having his head up his arse, wrote that AW's policies were starting to get an air of stubborness about them, but I reiterate he was trying something that had to be given a decent amount of time and I believe that he has learned and we need to learn to keep things in perspective, I think that's what he meant by the "killer" remark in that he could not understand the level of feeling or aggressiveness shown toward him!

Anyway, as you well know, few - if any - Arsenal fans were/are asking that the club spend tens of millions of pounds on players like United and Chelsea have. However what most of us 'critics' have consistently said is that the strength of the squad and balance of the side wasn't right and required additional signings to make it so. Wenger decided otherwise, convinced that the players he had would prove him right in May. Well, they didn't!!

ManUre and the Chavs are probably right now the two most powerful clubs in world football and should've have both been in the CL final for the second year running something that I don't think has ever been done before, and Benitez was in the paper yesterday complaining that he needs more money to compete with them and yet Ferguson said earlier in the season that in the last couple of years Rafa's spent more than he has so again things need to be kept in perspective about who we finished behind!

And we're entitled to moan about it without having to endure comments like 'feck off and support....' or being called 'JCL's' when the majority of the critics on here have been gooners for over 30 years - unlike, I would estimate, those chucking the accusations!!

Agreed

[I Hate Hleb]

So basically you agree with me!!

To be fair to you Belfast, you are one of the few prepared to argue your point rather than resorting to questioning a person's loyalty to the club for having the audacity to query some of Wenger's and the Board's decisions. Although you should know better than to think those of us critical of Wenger think it's only about 'winning trophies'.

Which leads me nicely to my next point: Accepting as read all you have said about lack of finance - due to the new stadium - being the main reason why we haven't been able to compete properly for the past few years: that particular problem didn't have as big an impact on our failure to win trophies as Wenger's bizarre team selections - especially in the FA Cup semi-final. Nor does it excuse the baffling teams and tactics picked by Wenger for the Champions League semi-finals. And the less said about his use of substitutes, the better!!:oops:

Wenger's persistence with using players out of position when there were others much more suited available to him can't be put down to our lack of funds or the fact that our 'rivals' have spent more. Likewise, neither can Wenger's refusal to strengthen the squad with more experience due to the fear of 'killing' the likes of Diaby, Denilson, Song, Bendtner etc. when he had the opportunity to do so. That was a choice he made.

You admit Arsene has made mistakes - which of you mere humans haven't? - and say you hope he has learnt his lessons. Yet that is another of the genuine fears for some of us - that judging from his comments, he hasn't learnt from them. Remember what he said around this time last season and what he eventually did about it come the summer. That then contributed to us finishing 18 points behind United when last year we we only 4 points behind; and dropping from third place to fourth.

Like you and I'm sure 99.9% of Arsenal fans, I also appreciate that Wenger has devoted a huge part of his life to the club and has made immeasurable good changes to the institution and how it's perceived, as well as bringing success to our great club. All of us would ideally want him to get things right before going out on a high and at a time of his chosing. The question is can he and how much longer do we give him to try?

[DB10GOONER]

Now that's proper debate!

Now both of you fuck off and support the chavs!!

[Belfast Boy]

So basically you agree with me!!

No way

To be fair to you Belfast, you are one of the few prepared to argue your point rather than resorting to questioning a person's loyalty to the club for having the audacity to query some of Wenger's and the Board's decisions. Although you should know better than to think those of us critical of Wenger think it's only about 'winning trophies'.

Yes I know performance goes a long way but the lack of commitment can only be levelled mainly at one player we have beaten both Utd and Chelsea this season so I have to believe that if we had won the league very little would be said!

Which leads me nicely to my next point: Accepting as read all you have said about lack of finance - due to the new stadium - being the main reason why we haven't been able to compete properly for the past few years: that particular problem didn't have as big an impact on our failure to win trophies as Wenger's bizarre team selections - especially in the FA Cup semi-final. Nor does it excuse the baffling teams and tactics picked by Wenger for the Champions League semi-finals. And the less said about his use of substitutes, the better!!:oops:

As I've said in the past AW is probably the best coach in the world but not necessarily the best manager and is for want of a better term a footballing philosopher, he therefore does not, rightly or wrongly put as much stock in tactics and leadership etc. his style of management is the antithesis of Ferguson's he prefers to build a flexible team of individuals and let them grow together and to deal with whatever is thrown at them on the pitch by themselves while he takes a back seat and without getting too deep the advantages of this approach are evident throughout history!

Wenger's persistence with using players out of position when there were others much more suited available to him can't be put down to our lack of funds or the fact that our 'rivals' have spent more. Likewise, neither can Wenger's refusal to strengthen the squad with more experience due to the fear of 'killing' the likes of Diaby, Denilson, Song, Bendtner etc. when he had the opportunity to do so. That was a choice he made.

As I said before IHH he had a plan and couldn't abandon it or the players you mentioned without giving them a fair crack of the whip which I'm sure you and a few others think they have already had, and while I wouldn't disagree I do trust AW and I am prepared to let him make some mistakes because I believe he is in one of the hardest jobs in the Premiership due to the expectation and certainly out of the rest of the top four due to lack of funds!

You admit Arsene has made mistakes - which of you mere humans haven't? - and say you hope he has learnt his lessons. Yet that is another of the genuine fears for some of us - that judging from his comments, he hasn't learnt from them. Remember what he said around this time last season and what he eventually did about it come the summer. That then contributed to us finishing 18 points behind United when last year we we only 4 points behind; and dropping from third place to fourth.

No argument there except to say that it has been a bad year and having our main striker seemingly no longer interested spurning chances like there's no tomorrow and setting records for the number of offsides, losing our most experienced CB in Gallas to a freak injury, and long term injuries to our most prolific striker in Eduardo, and playmaker in Rosicky which when you have a squad the size of Utd's doesn't really matter, which is exactly what Benitez said in yesterday's paper!

Like you and I'm sure 99.9% of Arsenal fans, I also appreciate that Wenger has devoted a huge part of his life to the club and has made immeasurable good changes to the institution and how it's perceived, as well as bringing success to our great club. All of us would ideally want him to get things right before going out on a high and at a time of his chosing. The question is can he and how much longer do we give him to try?

I know most on here want him to go either now or give him one more season, personally speaking I am willing to give him 2 more not because I think he can do wrong or anything but I do believe extenuating circumstances to exist

[I Hate Hleb]

In all honesty Belfast, we are probably closer in mind set then either of us believe. Like you, I knew there would a few years where we would possibly be less competetive in the transfer market due to the tightening of purse strings because of the new stadium debts; and the club said as much at the time. That wasn't and isn't a problem for me to accept. Indeed I remember early in my forum 'career' defending him and the Board over that.

Where I probably differ from you most is in the level of disappointment/anger at Wenger's tactics, team selections and transfer policy, albeit with that limited budget. The fact that Arsene identified some of the weaknesses but did little about them out of choice, not lack of finance. And paradoxically, his failure to see other weaknesses - obvious to almost all and sundry - which he could and should have done something about, that in turn would have made us more competetive.

One other differentiation is in your belief that Wenger is a coach and not a manager. I think it's the other way around. He doesn't teach/coach players - in the strictest sense of the word - on what to do and how to do it. He himself admits that, as would interviews with former players. Alas, any cursory examination of his tactics would also confirm this.

Instead he thinks the players should be intelligent enough to work things out for themselves and therefore relies on the players to come up with the solutions. I believe what he does is 'manage' the players - including massaging of their ego's - in an attempt to make them feel good about themselves and hope that results in getting a performance out of them. More psychologist than coach.

Difficult and unappetising as it is to admit, Wenger is miles behind the very top managers in world football when it comes to tactical awareness and that - along with his stubborness - is probably his biggest weakness.

[augie]

Cant disagree with you over any of that IHH - it is not much of a comment I know but thought somebody better put in something cos it was beginning to look like a private thread amongst the 2 mods

[I Hate Hleb]

Yeah, I was aware of that Augie and wasn't going to respond again for that reason. However, what Belfast Boy and I are hopefully doing is showing that you can have a discussion about Arsenal without resorting to insults or questioning one's loyalty to the cause.

[Belfast Boy]

No problem with anything you said there except the manager/coach thing, IMO he is a coach, his strength as we both agree is not in managing a team and overseeing tactics etc. but being a lifestyle guru and coaching the best out of individual players, in fact I think he actively avoids "managing" I would've thought that fact was pretty much accepted just as on the continent instead of managers they have coaches, but I do not want to argue semantics as I can see how both definitions can be apt to either word!