And what to use your standard totally proves this? And if it's not totally proven should you not take the same position you do with the Board with the manager?
Again why do you need absolute proof to change your views but don't need it to justify what you believe now?
The point is we don't know for certain what is going on, but to assume there is nothing wrong underway because we are not absolutely certain that it is strikes me as potentially letting people harm the club in the meantime.
It is perfectly reasonable to say that what I believe may be happening may not be happening, just as it perfectly reasonable to suggest what you believe may be happening may not be. What I struggle with is the undeniable fact that you and others don't seem to want to know anymore than you do when you know you may be wrong, and thus must know the consequences for the Club. if the Board is not acting as you want to believe. I would suggest that given that we both love the club - well all do here in fact - that we both and we all should want to know what actually is happening and none of us should be happy to trust the Board unconditionally or not to ask the Board for the consideration we all have earned over the years.
Today feels like the beginning of the end.
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QuartzGooner
- Posts: 14474
- Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:49 pm
- Location: London
Nice try but that's not an answer - but nice try just the same.
I'm guessing in your past life you weren't convinced the your boat was actually sinking until you were freezing to death in the water or if the sharks were eating you.
BTW what aboiut your concerns about outsiders taking over - which I share for the record - which can only happen if the insiders sell the club to them.
I'm guessing in your past life you weren't convinced the your boat was actually sinking until you were freezing to death in the water or if the sharks were eating you.
BTW what aboiut your concerns about outsiders taking over - which I share for the record - which can only happen if the insiders sell the club to them.
One last thing - you yourself have stated as fact that the manager was under financial constraints at this time and would be for some time because of the new stadium. You sated words to the effect that we just had to accept this until the stadium was paid off.
You would acknowledge at least that that position is inconsistent with what you are suggesting above, no?
You would acknowledge at least that that position is inconsistent with what you are suggesting above, no?
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QuartzGooner
- Posts: 14474
- Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:49 pm
- Location: London
@USMartin
I believe in a "Fit and Proper" financial and character check by the FA on all prospective buyers of clubs. More stringent than the one in place now, which let a dubious character such as the former PM through at City.
But I do not think the FA need investigate all existing owners without probable cause.
As for financial constraints on Wenger because of the new stadium, he himself has said as much, and fans realise that.
If the board want to pay the stadium bonds off early, and think it will save money despite early payment penalties, then fair play to them.
But if the board were now preventing Wenger spending, simply to have cash sitting in the bank, in excess of reserve money sitting there for a sensible "rainy day fund", then that would be very worrying.
I believe in a "Fit and Proper" financial and character check by the FA on all prospective buyers of clubs. More stringent than the one in place now, which let a dubious character such as the former PM through at City.
But I do not think the FA need investigate all existing owners without probable cause.
As for financial constraints on Wenger because of the new stadium, he himself has said as much, and fans realise that.
If the board want to pay the stadium bonds off early, and think it will save money despite early payment penalties, then fair play to them.
But if the board were now preventing Wenger spending, simply to have cash sitting in the bank, in excess of reserve money sitting there for a sensible "rainy day fund", then that would be very worrying.
Then the possibility that is happening now for any reason - supported by your own comments in the past-should worry us now. By the time supporters like yourself are prrepared to address it will be well and truly too late to address it. Is that in fact you want? I am not accusing of that - I am asking you that. I am asking you that because we do not have some legal obligation to ignore the threat of this until that threat becomes reality.QuartzGooner wrote:@USMartin
I believe in a "Fit and Proper" financial and character check by the FA on all prospective buyers of clubs. More stringent than the one in place now, which let a dubious character such as the former PM through at City.
But I do not think the FA need investigate all existing owners without probable cause.
As for financial constraints on Wenger because of the new stadium, he himself has said as much, and fans realise that.
If the board want to pay the stadium bonds off early, and think it will save money despite early payment penalties, then fair play to them.
But if the board were now preventing Wenger spending, simply to have cash sitting in the bank, in excess of reserve money sitting there for a sensible "rainy day fund", then that would be very worrying.
Yet you seem - and not you alone obviously - of the mindset that I'll only take a stand for my club when its too late, which it almost certainly will be by the time supporters like you are we willing to acknowledge it might be happening.
It is clear based on your own posts that money has been held back and you have implied that that will continue and that we just have to accept that. So whatever the reason we should be concerned that is happening and we should want to know why, because our hearts and sould , a big potion of our lives and even money we can't necessarily afford is in fact invested in Arsenal, and we should be unhappy if Board members trusted to care about the club as we do are not doing that..
So which is it, are the Board as you have stated repeatedly for the reasons you have outlined in the past few months holding back the money or not, whatever the reason? And if you are not certain, as your recent comments seem to suggest, don't you want to be? This isn't about 2006 or 2008 or 2011 anymore. It's about next year. Actually it's about 2016. 2028 or a number you have cited 2031 now.
Do we all deserve to go trophyless for 10 years now? How about 17 years? Do you deserve that?
By the way where did you get this notion about the club's owners being investigated by the FA or being subject to a fit-and-proper test?
This is simply about whether we as supporters should be concerned about the actions of our Board being in the club's best interests and seeking more complete information of this. This is simply about wanting to know the truth. This is about Arsenal, our supporters, and our Board and nothing more.
This is simply about whether we as supporters should be concerned about the actions of our Board being in the club's best interests and seeking more complete information of this. This is simply about wanting to know the truth. This is about Arsenal, our supporters, and our Board and nothing more.
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highburyJD
- Posts: 4982
- Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2007 6:36 pm
- Location: Highbury
I hope you're right about the first part but like you fear I might be right in this case.highburyJD wrote:I hope USM is paranoid
but have fear that he's not
that said - what does one protest against but a potential takeover...?
no dividend has been taken
I don't think we necessarily have tio protest straight away here. The idea of my petition was simply to try and seek information it is reasonable to seek from the Club and its Board and frankly reasonable for the Club and the Board to provide, and themn to go from there. As IHH points out that information will stiasfy some and not others if its provided probably, though idealy if the y provided sufficient information it might actually genuinely and reasonably ease all our concerns or by the same token it may increase all our concerns.
I think only if the Club and Board and unwilling to provide that reasonable information do we need to look beyond simply making reasonable inquiries here. The thing is timeis of the essence, in that if you listen to Quartz and his standard to seek more information it is only after it is essentailly too late and thus pointless to try to do anything even, including genuine protest if the situation called for them.
We should want to know what is going and why now because the impact of now will be felt tommorrow not today, and so the longer we are willing to stay in the dark the longer the shadows will linger over us and our club even after the truth - if indeed it is as bad as I fear - finally comes to light.
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Arsenal 1991
- Posts: 3219
- Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:53 pm
- Location: England
I have - of course many like yourself aren't even willing to to take part in a petition effort that requires you simply sign your actual name.Arsenal 1991 wrote:US, if you are so passionate about it and think it is such an issue then do something about it.
So if my doing that shows my passion then does your refusing to sign or ridiculing my effort correspond to a lack of passion on your part then? Or if you are as passionate as I am about Arsenal as surely you are why not actually sign it?
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Arsenal 1991
- Posts: 3219
- Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:53 pm
- Location: England
Perhaps because I don't agree with you.USMartin wrote:I have - of course many like yourself aren't even willing to to take part in a petition effort that requires you simply sign your actual name.Arsenal 1991 wrote:US, if you are so passionate about it and think it is such an issue then do something about it.
So if my doing that shows my passion then does your refusing to sign or ridiculing my effort correspond to a lack of passion on your part then? Or if you are as passionate as I am about Arsenal as surely you are why not actually sign it?
Even if you don't agree with me since you have acknowledged that you have no idea for certain what the truth is you should sign you because you should want to know what it is, no?Arsenal 1991 wrote:Perhaps because I don't agree with you.USMartin wrote:I have - of course many like yourself aren't even willing to to take part in a petition effort that requires you simply sign your actual name.Arsenal 1991 wrote:US, if you are so passionate about it and think it is such an issue then do something about it.
So if my doing that shows my passion then does your refusing to sign or ridiculing my effort correspond to a lack of passion on your part then? Or if you are as passionate as I am about Arsenal as surely you are why not actually sign it?
Besides even if you don't sign where do you get off acting as if I haven't tried to do something? I have made more of an effort than you have to try to learn the truth. If you are right as you maybe why not encourage the Board to actually prove that?
Seems to me that everyone who wants to believe the Board now doesn't want to know their belief is indeed actually justified. Cue the Zombies "I Don't Want To Know" on the record player.
I would want to know if I was right - or wrong. I don't understand the reluctance of those who trust the Board to prove they are right in doing so really.
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Arsenal 1991
- Posts: 3219
- Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:53 pm
- Location: England
I really can't be bothered to read your posts, just do what you want to do.USMartin wrote:Even if you don't agree with me since you have acknowledged that you have no idea for certain what the truth is you should sign you because you should want to know what it is, no?Arsenal 1991 wrote:Perhaps because I don't agree with you.USMartin wrote:I have - of course many like yourself aren't even willing to to take part in a petition effort that requires you simply sign your actual name.Arsenal 1991 wrote:US, if you are so passionate about it and think it is such an issue then do something about it.
So if my doing that shows my passion then does your refusing to sign or ridiculing my effort correspond to a lack of passion on your part then? Or if you are as passionate as I am about Arsenal as surely you are why not actually sign it?
Besides even if you don't sign where do you get off acting as if I haven't tried to do something? I have made more of an effort than you have to try to learn the truth. If you are right as you maybe why not encourage the Board to actually prove that?
Seems to me that everyone who wants to believe the Board now doesn't want to know their belief is indeed actually justified. Cue the Zombies "I Don't Want To Know" on the record player.
I would want to know if I was right - or wrong. I don't understand the reluctance of those who trust the Board to prove they are right in doing so really.
In other words you can't answer it with confidence - but if that makes you feel better about that reality....Arsenal 1991 wrote:I really can't be bothered to read your posts, just do what you want to do.USMartin wrote:Even if you don't agree with me since you have acknowledged that you have no idea for certain what the truth is you should sign you because you should want to know what it is, no?Arsenal 1991 wrote:Perhaps because I don't agree with you.USMartin wrote:I have - of course many like yourself aren't even willing to to take part in a petition effort that requires you simply sign your actual name.Arsenal 1991 wrote:US, if you are so passionate about it and think it is such an issue then do something about it.
So if my doing that shows my passion then does your refusing to sign or ridiculing my effort correspond to a lack of passion on your part then? Or if you are as passionate as I am about Arsenal as surely you are why not actually sign it?
Besides even if you don't sign where do you get off acting as if I haven't tried to do something? I have made more of an effort than you have to try to learn the truth. If you are right as you maybe why not encourage the Board to actually prove that?
Seems to me that everyone who wants to believe the Board now doesn't want to know their belief is indeed actually justified. Cue the Zombies "I Don't Want To Know" on the record player.
I would want to know if I was right - or wrong. I don't understand the reluctance of those who trust the Board to prove they are right in doing so really.
