Anti-Semitism is creeping back (28/1)

[Cus Geezer]

Now, you see, I could cry racism and have a whinge about something like that for example, but I am thankfully not the sort of person to find a trivial opinion or usage of a word to be the most horribly grotesque thing imaginable.

Now you see this shows why your missing the point RaM.

Racism, as defined in the Oxford English dictionary: The theory that distinctive human characteristics and abilities are determined by race, all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, i.e. Blacks being good boxers because they are natural savages or Jews being good capitalists because they are naturally cunning and exploitative.

To say that the social conditions of Australia have led to an indifference or lack of awareness of racial issues is not racist in the slightest. It's the social conditioning of Australia that leads to such thinking - not their genetic make up as a racist would argue.

Like it isn't racist to say that the people of (until relatively recently) almost entirely white Essex or Norfolk are about 20 years behind London in their awareness of racial issues.

[SPUDMASHER]

Now, you see, I could cry racism and have a whinge about something like that for example, but I am thankfully not the sort of person to find a trivial opinion or usage of a word to be the most horribly grotesque thing imaginable.

Now you see this shows why your missing the point RaM.

Racism, as defined in the Oxford English dictionary: The theory that distinctive human characteristics and abilities are determined by race, all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, i.e. Blacks being good boxers because they are natural savages or Jews being good capitalists because they are naturally cunning and exploitative.

To say that the social conditions of Australia have led to an indifference or lack of awareness of racial issues is not racist in the slightest. It's the social conditioning of Australia that leads to such thinking - not their genetic make up as a racist would argue.

Like it isn't racist to say that the people of (until relatively recently) almost entirely white Essex or Norfolk are about 20 years behind London in their awareness of racial issues.

Oh I see....gonna start picking on Essex boys now are we. Racist Bastard

[Cus Geezer]

Oh I see....gonna start picking on Essex boys now are we. Racist Bastard

Well having been born in Essex, and thus an Essex boy myself I'm more than qualified to make a generalisation or two about that one.

[SPUDMASHER]

Oh I see....gonna start picking on Essex boys now are we. Racist Bastard

Well having been born in Essex, and thus an Essex boy myself I'm more than qualified to make a generalisation or two about that one.

What colour is your shell suit Cus?

[Herd]

Are two very very different things and we should have the sense to differentiate .

There is no racism shown at Highbury towards anyone and as we all know we have a lot of different nationalities and religions among our fans.

I didnt hear any chants about Adolph bieng an Arsenal fan the other Tuesday at WHL ,so I can only assume it was a small group doing it ,but if I had It wouldnt have offended me so greatly if I had ,the song is in very poor taste but ive heard worse.

I come from an era when to be Black and a football fan meant you you had to put up with physical abuse on a scale unimaginable in our cotton wool cocoon that exists today.
Likewise a game against Chelsea would have tens of thousands of the muppets giving it the full "Sieg Heil" treatment wherever they went.

I have vigorouslly fought the BNP and the NF on the streets of London and am proud making sure these bastards NEVER got a foothold on our club,something I cant' see happening today either.

These endless debates on here and in other forums might suggest Arsenal has a racist hardcore stirring up trouble when in fact nothing can be further from the truth.

Its about time we got on with supporting the club and stopped this endless
petty and devisive ,internal big brother spying and reporting mission that is plaguing this club at the moment.

[Cus Geezer]

......Are two very very different things and we should have the sense to differentiate .

And when the basis of that chant is a phrase that most would recognise to be racist why should we differentiate. Can we not sing an anti-Spurs song that doesn't involve the Jews?

I have vigorouslly fought the BNP and the NF on the streets of London and am proud making sure these bastards NEVER got a foothold on our club,something I cant' see happening today either.

If all racism was about BNP, NF or any of their far right counterparts, seeing that they barely get any significant amount of votes that would suggest that racism barely exists in Britain - which of course isn't true at all. It might not be Nazi Germany stuff, but it's not a colour blind utopia either.

These endless debates on here and in other forums might suggest Arsenal has a racist hardcore stirring up trouble when in fact nothing can be further from the truth.

Nobody's suggested any such thing.

People have suggested that a small but audiable proportion of people at Arsenal are chanting anti-semitic stuff, an even smaller amount are chanting about the holocaust. And even more importantly - quite a lot of people are indifferent to it.

Its about time we got on with supporting the club and stopped this endless petty and devisive ,internal big brother spying and reporting mission that is plaguing this club at the moment.

It's about time we got on with supporting Arsenal and stopped chanting irrelevant stuff about Jews. [/quote]

[Red Gunner]

I didnt hear any chants about Adolph bieng an Arsenal fan the other Tuesday at WHL ,so I can only assume it was a small group doing it ,but if I had It wouldnt have offended me so greatly if I had ,the song is in very poor taste but ive heard worse.

Actually, Adolph supports Spurs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvn8HYp_RD0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lP0dTWRCJeQ

[RC8]

It would be a pretty fucked up world if they were allowed to sing "**** Army", but if you answered back you were looked upon as a racist. It makes no sense. It's like black people who get offended when the word nigger is used.

I might be wrong, but are you saying I shouldn't get offended if someone called me a nigger?

Yes. Why would you? What does nigger mean that is so awful? Nigger derives from the word "Negro", which means black. Nothing more.

I understnad that what you find offensive is that the word is often use instead of "person" or a synonym, and that therefore it is a dehumanising term. But think about it, would it be worse if you were called black, Irish, or anything else for that matter? It's not the term that you should despise, it's the way in which the term is used. Otherwise, as I mentioned, you are giving racists the freedom to use a random term in any given opportunity and cause the reaction they want.

My native language is Spanish, and if a US Citizen or someone else told me: "hey, latino" I would retaliate with some offensive anti-whatever he is vocabulary. Not because I find the word "latino" offensive, but because if I was from the same place he is he would have said "dude" or something along those lines.

Do you understand, now?

[Cus Geezer]

What does nigger mean that is so awful?.....My native language is Spanish

Not a fan of formula one by any chance?

[chriscatchpole]

the problem is that some words by their very nature are derogatory, and are known to be derogatory & thus using them it is understandable if the target, or someone who overhears and is in the same group as the target, is offended.

there is an argument that the words should be used more and that that may reduce the power if them to offend, but it is very sticky ground best left to satire.

[RC8]

I agree that it's a difficult situation to deal with, but it's important to understand WHY they are offensive. In the nigger/neger/negro case, it is not the word itself that is offensive, but that the word seems to replace a human description, and thus makes it sound as if the guy you are aiming at was not a human. However, I don't see much people running around accusing the College Negro Fund in the US of having a racist name.

If it is understood by everyone that it isn't a racist word, but that it can be racist in a certain context, then the paranoia would drop considerably, and idiots wouldn't be able to illogically racially insult someone, which is something that happens often; for instance: "That guy is a nigger!" would just make the target laugh and tell him, yes, I'm black, so? And make the offender look like the retarded idiot he is. (that's an idealistic scenario of course! But if things went wrong, the offender would be forced to insult explicitly the victim, and it would allow the target could suit him or beat the hell out of him with a good excuse!) In the other hand, the witch hunt which nowadays prospers would not be of such a large scale, and you wouldn't have to be worried about unintentionally offending someone with a "forbidden word".

All that applies to the word **** as well.

[RaM]

Now you see this shows why your missing the point RaM.

Racism, as defined in the Oxford English dictionary: The theory that distinctive human characteristics and abilities are determined by race, all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, i.e. Blacks being good boxers because they are natural savages or Jews being good capitalists because they are naturally cunning and exploitative.

To say that the social conditions of Australia have led to an indifference or lack of awareness of racial issues is not racist in the slightest. It's the social conditioning of Australia that leads to such thinking - not their genetic make up as a racist would argue.

Like it isn't racist to say that the people of (until relatively recently) almost entirely white Essex or Norfolk are about 20 years behind London in their awareness of racial issues.

Now from just reading that Cus, I could possibly say that you have no reason at all to deem the word '****' racist. The word makes no reference to any physical characteristics, nor does it depict Jews as inferior in any way shape or form. It's just a label.

[26may1989]

Now you see this shows why your missing the point RaM.

Racism, as defined in the Oxford English dictionary: The theory that distinctive human characteristics and abilities are determined by race, all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, i.e. Blacks being good boxers because they are natural savages or Jews being good capitalists because they are naturally cunning and exploitative.

To say that the social conditions of Australia have led to an indifference or lack of awareness of racial issues is not racist in the slightest. It's the social conditioning of Australia that leads to such thinking - not their genetic make up as a racist would argue.

Like it isn't racist to say that the people of (until relatively recently) almost entirely white Essex or Norfolk are about 20 years behind London in their awareness of racial issues.

Now from just reading that Cus, I could possibly say that you have no reason at all to deem the word '****' racist. The word makes no reference to any physical characteristics, nor does it depict Jews as inferior in any way shape or form. It's just a label.

RaM, that school retreat has obviously left you tired. Cus's quote from the Oxford English Dictionary didn't limit the definition of racism to physical features (just read it: "characteristics and abilities" etc), so your response is wrong anyway. But you continue to miss the central point by a mile - whether you (whom I presume to be white, as well as living in a country without a large Jewish poopulation) like it or not, most people in the UK recognise that **** is a racist term.

Maybe time for you to knuckle down to prepare for those exams...

[RaM]

Ok missed that.

As to your central point however, I'm not missing it, I'm just disagreeing with you. Or is that offensive too??

Exams? Ok. If condescending remarks it is then perhaps I should just answer with material you give me.

Age?

Alright, does the fact that I'm a 16 year old mean that I know absolutely nothing about the world? Or do you think it might mean that my age group is one in which the ability to outgrow remarks so that they are passed around jokingly on a daily basis has been developed?


Country?

Sydney has a vast multicultural background (not as large as London, but for its size there isn't a chasm between it and Sydney). There are disputes between races here, but nought has ever come from one race being put off by the use of WORDS (again it is the '****' term we are arguing about). Amongst people here words such as 'Wog' were considered racist at first but after a short period were cast off and have become a part of the language. (Possibly due to the fact that 'Wogs' noted the fact that it was in fact harmless.)

So for our age and cultural differences, perhaps we can never agree on this. I for one am happy to cop whatever comes at me right on the chin and keep living life the way I want to. If you guys want to find offense in these sorts of thing go ahead.


And after a terrible length, mainly of course, spawned from the stupid spuds, I would like to request that this prolonged disagreement can finally come to a close. It really is giving me a pain in the arse, and I'm sure is worse for everyone else on the forum.

[26may1989]

RaM, fair point, I was being condescending about your age, sorry about that. But, in telling other people how they should feel about the use of racist terms targeted at them, you're also being condescending, that's the real problem with the arguments you (and some others) have made.

Although I'm always on for a bit of an argument on these issues (though I joined this particular thread very late), I don't really feel the need to continue the discussion, as you imply, we all know where we stand on a lot of these points. But I just want to say I know Sydney is a very multicultural city (though I maintain, for this debate, it's significant that Australia doesn't have a very big Jewish community, so there might be a less developed view on anti-Jewish racism than there might be in respect of other groups).

Although I agree with much of what Cus says on the main points, I don't accept his digs at Oz, which are just based on caricatures and assumptions. There is however a specific context in London/the UK on this issue, which means that people from elsewhere are not necessarily well equipped to see the issues in the way they are understood here. That doesn't mean people from elsewhere don't have the right to an opinion on the subject, of course, but we should all be aware of the limitations of our perspective on debates like these. Just as I would not expect to have the most informed views on the position of Aboriginal Australians in contemporary Oz, even though I might have some views on it.

Anyway, I know I'm boring you by now, so over and out on this one (hopefully...).