yes, she's the victim isn't she? forgot that alcohol just jumps into your mouth and cocaine up into your nose. Its not exactly like these victims are powerless . I actually think its quite sick this will receive more interest /sympathy than the norway attack .
RIP all the same . no-one deserves it
R.I.P Amy Winehouse
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QuartzGooner
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Why are people moralising over whether this or Norway is more important, or laughing at this?
If someone wants to start a Norway thread then start one.
There have been 80 deaths in India last week in a train crash but no one started a thread because it had unknown victims.
But it's an Arsenal Forum so tons of threads on here over the minutiae of the Arsenal board years 2005 - 2011 and whether Nasri will stay or go.
Of course Amy Winehouse had a choice whether to use drink and drugs, but only in the beginning was it a significant choice. After a certain point she was an addict and that choice diminished to the point of being virtual enslavement to her addictions, and many addicts cannot get clean.
So her friends and family and fans will continue to suffer.
Remember Paul Vaessen.
If someone wants to start a Norway thread then start one.
There have been 80 deaths in India last week in a train crash but no one started a thread because it had unknown victims.
But it's an Arsenal Forum so tons of threads on here over the minutiae of the Arsenal board years 2005 - 2011 and whether Nasri will stay or go.
Of course Amy Winehouse had a choice whether to use drink and drugs, but only in the beginning was it a significant choice. After a certain point she was an addict and that choice diminished to the point of being virtual enslavement to her addictions, and many addicts cannot get clean.
So her friends and family and fans will continue to suffer.
Remember Paul Vaessen.
Last edited by QuartzGooner on Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
SammyDroppedHisShorts wrote:Indeed Rugby
Jimi Hendrix
Jim Morrison
Brian Jones
Curt Cobain
Janis Joplin
Now Amy Winehouse
27. Thank fuck I passed it.......
Seemed she wanted to join this exclusive club, and now she has. Although, unlike the others on thelist above she pretty muched wasted the talent she had. RIP
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LDB
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Forced to retire from football at the age of 21 with fuck all money, went into menial employment and got himself into drugs as a result of his misery (thats a rough summary of my understanding of it anyway).QuartzGooner wrote: Remember Paul Vaessen.
Dont get me wrong, i apply the same standard to Vaessen to an extent, he made his own choices. The mark of a person imo is being able to overcome massive adversity without resorting to easy escape routes such as drugs and suicide. So while vaessen clearly failed this test, at least he had some adversity to overcome in the first place. What was Amy Winehouse's excuse? Having too much money to know what to do with?
No, this was a rich, talented young woman with everything to live for who destroyed her body with drugs for no good reason. I hope there is a heaven so she can look down and see how distraught she has undoubtedly made those who care for her.
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QuartzGooner
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Do not follow your argument LDB that their financial situation should make me feel more for one than the other.
There is a common denominator in that they both had talent, but for whatever reason could not use it effectively.
Both could feel they wasted their life.
Just because Vaessen had little money, why should he feel compelled to spend what he did have on drugs? How much more productive would he have been had he spent what he had on food?
Can understand why he would feel miserable, his injury was not his choice.
But he had a choice whether to start taking drugs.
Winehouse had money, so I doubt she had to rob to pay for drugs.
And clearly she had a choice not to do them.
Who knows why she tried them in the first place knowing they could be addictive?
Who knows what troubles she had in her mind before drugs?
She tried to kick the habit.
But once she died try them and get addicted, and once Vaessen tried them and became addicted, both certainly became very troubled.
No amount of money or other people's care could change her addiction and death, no lack of money or other people's care could change his addiction and death.
There is a common denominator in that they both had talent, but for whatever reason could not use it effectively.
Both could feel they wasted their life.
Just because Vaessen had little money, why should he feel compelled to spend what he did have on drugs? How much more productive would he have been had he spent what he had on food?
Can understand why he would feel miserable, his injury was not his choice.
But he had a choice whether to start taking drugs.
Winehouse had money, so I doubt she had to rob to pay for drugs.
And clearly she had a choice not to do them.
Who knows why she tried them in the first place knowing they could be addictive?
Who knows what troubles she had in her mind before drugs?
She tried to kick the habit.
But once she died try them and get addicted, and once Vaessen tried them and became addicted, both certainly became very troubled.
No amount of money or other people's care could change her addiction and death, no lack of money or other people's care could change his addiction and death.
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LDB
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Only slightly more, both ultimately made their choices. However, If Vaessen's life were turned into film it would be a tragedy about how a man fell from glory into deprivation. In Winehouse's case it would just be an educational video telling kids not to do drugs. She had all the best opportunities in life to avoid being dragged into shit like hard drugs but failed, it was her weakness and recklessness alone that caused her death.QuartzGooner wrote:Do not follow your argument LDB that their financial situation should make me feel more for one than the other.
No objection to this.Just because Vaessen had little money, why should he feel compelled to spend what he did have on drugs? How much more productive would he have been had he spent what he had on food?
Can understand why he would feel miserable, his injury was not his choice.
But he had a choice whether to start taking drugs.
Not everyones life contexts are the same, just because they both got addicted to drugs and died it doesnt make their stories the same. I have a tiny bit of sympathy for Vaessen, i have fuck all for amy winehouse.But once she died try them and get addicted, and once Vaessen tried them and became addicted, both certainly became very troubled.
No amount of money or other people's care could change her addiction and death, no lack of money or other people's care could change his addiction and death.
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QuartzGooner
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Do not follow you at all LDB.
Winehouse's life would make a tragedy film too.
A woman with seemingly the world at her feet who dies young through drugs.
It is a tragic waste of life and there had to have been a weakness in her that allowed her to slip into that addicted life.
The tragedy is that tons of money and friends and family and professional help could not save her.
And she did repeatedly try to save herself, but failed.
Why give Vaessen sympathy and not her? Simply because of his injury?
It is a sad thing to see a player injured out of the game at such a young age. But he was 21, and at the time of his injury he could have had opportunity to get Higher Education for free with fees paid.
He could have signed up for any number of apprenticeships with a trade.
Instead he drifted into crime and drugs.
Highly likely he got depression, and who knows what help he had from the club, former team mates, family and friends?
But he had a chance.
She was killed by drugs, and drink. Telling me you are teetotal?
Plenty a good Arsenal man has been felled by drink addiction.
Save your venom for the pushers and the corrupt officials who let the hard drugs into the country.
Winehouse's life would make a tragedy film too.
A woman with seemingly the world at her feet who dies young through drugs.
It is a tragic waste of life and there had to have been a weakness in her that allowed her to slip into that addicted life.
The tragedy is that tons of money and friends and family and professional help could not save her.
And she did repeatedly try to save herself, but failed.
Why give Vaessen sympathy and not her? Simply because of his injury?
It is a sad thing to see a player injured out of the game at such a young age. But he was 21, and at the time of his injury he could have had opportunity to get Higher Education for free with fees paid.
He could have signed up for any number of apprenticeships with a trade.
Instead he drifted into crime and drugs.
Highly likely he got depression, and who knows what help he had from the club, former team mates, family and friends?
But he had a chance.
She was killed by drugs, and drink. Telling me you are teetotal?
Plenty a good Arsenal man has been felled by drink addiction.
Save your venom for the pushers and the corrupt officials who let the hard drugs into the country.
You are right.QuartzGooner wrote:Why are people moralising over whether this or Norway is more important, or laughing at this?
If someone wants to start a Norway thread then start one.
There have been 80 deaths in India last week in a train crash but no one started a thread because it had unknown victims.
But it's an Arsenal Forum ...
Also there are thousands of children starving to death in Africa right now ...
Not only can I see no thread on here about the Indian train crash, or the events in Norway. I also can't see threads for yesterdays train crash in China or the shootings in Texas..... Don't let me stop you though if you feel so deeply affected that you want to start one.
Where is the gooner forum based.....? High up on the moral high ground (once again) from the look of it!
I lost an uncle and Great Grandfather to alcohol addition. I drifted from my best mate from early Arsenal supporting days due to him having the same condition (although I don't think I realised that at the time). My daughter was at school with a girl who suffered severely from anorexia. I have two cousins who suffer from OCD. None of them wanted too..... None of them enjoyed it or made a conscious choice to continue.
I think there is evidence that addictive behaviour is in you from day one - like a cancer.
So maybe people should have a little more sympathy when a talent (such as Amy Winehouse undoubtedly had)/friend/daughter/sister is taken away at such a devastatingly young age!
Where is the gooner forum based.....? High up on the moral high ground (once again) from the look of it!
I lost an uncle and Great Grandfather to alcohol addition. I drifted from my best mate from early Arsenal supporting days due to him having the same condition (although I don't think I realised that at the time). My daughter was at school with a girl who suffered severely from anorexia. I have two cousins who suffer from OCD. None of them wanted too..... None of them enjoyed it or made a conscious choice to continue.
I think there is evidence that addictive behaviour is in you from day one - like a cancer.
So maybe people should have a little more sympathy when a talent (such as Amy Winehouse undoubtedly had)/friend/daughter/sister is taken away at such a devastatingly young age!
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Percy Dalton
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I agree with you MK Gould on the addictive personality bit. I do believe this is something some people have inside their make up from birth.
With regards to Winehouse though, her wealth allowed her to have the very best treatment and advice available which she constantly shunned, abused and threw back in the face of those who were there to help her.
She was talented sure but I think there is a certain lack of sympathy towards someone who had plenty of choices but who seemed to revel in making the wrong ones.
With regards to Winehouse though, her wealth allowed her to have the very best treatment and advice available which she constantly shunned, abused and threw back in the face of those who were there to help her.
She was talented sure but I think there is a certain lack of sympathy towards someone who had plenty of choices but who seemed to revel in making the wrong ones.
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QuartzGooner
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I know I have written a fair bit about this but it is something I feel strongly about.
Yes, Amy Winehouse was rich, and she presumably had the best treatment available.
And it would seem revolting if she ran away from rehab, flaunting her addiction.
But my experience of addicts, and sadly I have had more than I want whilst not having taken hard drugs myself, is that they have to be ready for rehab, and a big part of their addiction is denial of their condition.
And even when they admit they are addicted, and have the most expensive treatment, so many of them still cannot kick the habit.
Yes, Amy Winehouse was rich, and she presumably had the best treatment available.
And it would seem revolting if she ran away from rehab, flaunting her addiction.
But my experience of addicts, and sadly I have had more than I want whilst not having taken hard drugs myself, is that they have to be ready for rehab, and a big part of their addiction is denial of their condition.
And even when they admit they are addicted, and have the most expensive treatment, so many of them still cannot kick the habit.
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Cockerill's chin
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Although drugs and their impact cross the social divide Quartz, their impact is disproportionately represented within lower socio-economic groups. Research suggests that social inequality is a significant risk factor.
Amy Winehouse story is tragic and it is a shame that she couldn't turn it around in spite of access to support and privileges which are not available to the majority of people who follow that path, Vaessen included.
I feel desperately for her and her family who seemed to have tried everything they could to turn their daughter from her destructive route.
Amy Winehouse story is tragic and it is a shame that she couldn't turn it around in spite of access to support and privileges which are not available to the majority of people who follow that path, Vaessen included.
I feel desperately for her and her family who seemed to have tried everything they could to turn their daughter from her destructive route.
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JMascis666
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I don't know, I just can't get behind the taken away bit.MK Gould wrote:So maybe people should have a little more sympathy when a talent (such as Amy Winehouse undoubtedly had)/friend/daughter/sister is taken away at such a devastatingly young age!
She was given a life and she destroyed it with all the choices she made with it.
It is more like she slowly killed herself over the years and she knew she was doing it but didn't stop. Bit like being on the train tracks where you can see the train coming from half a mile away. Get off the tracks cos if you don't you know what's gonna happen.
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StuartL
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I actually like her music and think she had a great voice / talent.
Her having money, was probably part of the problem as no doubt it brought plenty of hangers on - happy to sponge of her talents as they have none themselves.
The pity is that there wasn't anybody cloae enough to her to get her to change her ways as it appears that the outcome was somewhat inevitable....
Drugs in rock and roll or even among those who like to think of themselves as famous is nothing new, sadly, nor is a celebrity dying at a young age with more that they could have shared of their talent.
R.I.P amy
Her having money, was probably part of the problem as no doubt it brought plenty of hangers on - happy to sponge of her talents as they have none themselves.
The pity is that there wasn't anybody cloae enough to her to get her to change her ways as it appears that the outcome was somewhat inevitable....
Drugs in rock and roll or even among those who like to think of themselves as famous is nothing new, sadly, nor is a celebrity dying at a young age with more that they could have shared of their talent.
R.I.P amy
