McDowell its over dude...no more - Hallelujah

[aw]

I would definitely include Podolski as "world class". It means he plays regularly for a good national team which Germany undoubtedly are

No, no, no. Sorry, but no.

You don't automatically become "world class" just because you're an international for a top nation.

If a top international team just so happen to have a dearth of quality goalkeepers or left backs, then the one they end up reluctantly playing in that position doesn't become "world class" by default, surely?

I'd rather define "world class" purely on a players ability. Controversial, I know

And how else did he get into the German national team if it wasn't based on ability??

[g88ner]

I would definitely include Podolski as "world class". It means he plays regularly for a good national team which Germany undoubtedly are

No, no, no. Sorry, but no.

You don't automatically become "world class" just because you're an international for a top nation.

If a top international team just so happen to have a dearth of quality goalkeepers or left backs, then the one they end up reluctantly playing in that position doesn't become "world class" by default, surely?

I'd rather define "world class" purely on a players ability. Controversial, I know

And how else did he get into the German national team if it wasn't based on ability??

If you read my post, you'd understand how a player (who isn't world class) can get in a great team.

I'm not talking about Podolski though. I was talking hypothetically. I don't have an opinion on Podolski as I've hardly ever seen him play, but he's irrelevant to this discussion, as I'm responding to your comment that "world class = playing regularly for a top nation like Germany (like Mertesacker does), and I don't think that's necessarily the case, as my post above tries to explain.

An example off the top of my head of an average player (who definitely isn't world class) yet played for a truly great world cup winning side is Stéphane Guivarc'h, who played lone striker for France in '98. That team was immense, but carried their striker due to the fact Zidane, Thuram, and co. were superb.

And anyway, there's probably loads of examples of great international teams having weak players.

[Babatunde]

You compared David Villa unfavourably to Podolski.
David Villa. You know, the guy with all those trophies and who's actually succeeded.

What do you know dear child?

Hmm... not sure winning trophies means one player is better than another.

Phil Neville has won 6 Premier League titles, 1 champions league and numerous FA Cups....
Van Persie has won 1 FA Cup.

Who is better?

I know what you're getting at, mate - but your arguments are often full of holes. Probably because you're just so angry all the time

I can counter that by naming the following players: Messi, Ronaldo, Van Basten, Desailly, Zidane.
Great players generally win trophies. Because they make the difference.
Just as many holes in your argument

[donaldo]

I would definitely include Podolski as "world class". It means he plays regularly for a good national team which Germany undoubtedly are

No, no, no. Sorry, but no.

You don't automatically become "world class" just because you're an international for a top nation. If a top international team just so happen to have a dearth of quality goalkeepers or left backs, then the one they end up reluctantly playing in that position doesn't become "world class" by default, surely?

I'd rather define "world class" purely on a players ability. Controversial, I know

Correct

George Best, George Weah, Liam Brady didnt play in top international teams but were world class

Julio "the Beast" Baptista played 45 times for Brazil and was a million miles from being world class

[Babatunde]

Baba is right. Podolski is a good player and even a very good one but you can't call him world class (FACT )
What is a world class player? It's a player who plays well and better than that against most opponents and over some period of time. Podolski has scored many goals for Germany but I don't like those stats.
Look at the opponents! It's a joke. He scores against teams like Liechtenstein, Thailand and San Marino. Is there a top team he scored against? Look it up. One against Brazil and one against England. He also scored against Côte d'Ivoire, Russia and Sweden and some in the same bracket BUT that adds up to maybe 10 goals against decent opponents. Proven world class?

Btw I don't say he is bad or that he can't become world class. But at the moment he is not in the same class as van Persie is and if he was bought to replace van Persie the team loses quality. That's it. I said it before. Arteta is a good player but the team lost quality when Arsenal bought Arteta and sold Fabregas. It might be the same with Podolski/van Persie.

Don't bother with such factual arguments please.
HE HAS SIGNED FOR ARSENAL THEREFORE IS AUTOMATICALLY WORLD CLASS!
I mean WOW that international goals record with all those goals against the mighty Qatar, Lebanon, Luxembourg, Latvia and Macedonia is unreal. Puts David Villa and co to shake I tell ya!

Like I said. I remember all those works class players furrowing up front for relegated teams...

[MegaGooner]

this is the guy accusing others of stupidity.
...

Don't bother mate, he is like the Eboue of the board, nobody likes him, but for some strange reason he has a cult following on here.

FACT

[g88ner]

we're talking about a striker here - and whilst most quality teams can carry a shoddy keeper, back or DM (song anyone ?), your striker is your bread and butter. the striker doesn't perform, teh team doesn't perform.

I'm talking hypothetically here (not about Podolski) but Germany play more than one striker (Mario Gomez), so when a team plays more than one striker, I think they could, in theory, carry one of them.

Also, as I posted to aw, Stéphane Guivarc'h was very average yet played lone striker for France in 98... and won a world cup even though he was being carried by Zidane, Thuram, Desailly, Blanc, and co. Great team, poor striker.

Of course, Guivarc'h hasn't got 90-odd caps, but that's only because better players came along like Trezeguet and Henry... if they hadn't, maybe average Stephane would have continued to be carried by a great France team as they won the Euro's 2 years later? - It's feasible because national teams have limited choice. They can only pick players who qualify for their country, hence Guivarc'h was a world champion.

As for international goals... Robbie Keane scored 53 goals for Ireland, and David Healy scored 35 for N. Ireland... now, imagine how many they would have scored if they were spearheading a GREAT internationl team, with servuce from a Zidane, or a Xavi, or a Goetze instead of relying on service by Kevin Kilbane and.. er.. actually, I can't think of any N.Ireland creative players

All I'm saying is that I take international caps/goals with a pinch of salt.

Anyway, I've read lots about Podolski and I'm optimistic he'll be a success. But until I've seen him play, I'll sit on the fence and neither knock him down or big him up. It's an exciting signing though, I'll give it that.

[g88ner]

You compared David Villa unfavourably to Podolski.
David Villa. You know, the guy with all those trophies and who's actually succeeded.

What do you know dear child?

Hmm... not sure winning trophies means one player is better than another.

Phil Neville has won 6 Premier League titles, 1 champions league and numerous FA Cups....
Van Persie has won 1 FA Cup.

Who is better?

I know what you're getting at, mate - but your arguments are often full of holes. Probably because you're just so angry all the time

I can counter that by naming the following players: Messi, Ronaldo, Van Basten, Desailly, Zidane.
Great players generally win trophies. Because they make the difference.
Just as many holes in your argument

what?

That's a quality post, mate! makes no sense, but still

What argument do you think I'm making, Baba? and what holes are you referring to??

All I said was that a player in a trophy winning team isn't necessarily better than a player who wins nothing, and highlighted Phil Nevilles 6 league titles and RvP's (and Cesc's) zero as one of MANY examples.

Please expand... if you can

[Babatunde]

this is the guy accusing others of stupidity.
...

Don't bother mate, he is like the Eboue of the board, nobody likes him, but for some strange reason he has a cult following on here.

FACT

Aaaaaaw Megagofer....
Do you know how HURT I was when you said "no one likes me"

I cried into my hanky.

Eboue I may be, but you make Gus Cesar look like Baresi...
Next.

[MegaGooner]

Don't bother mate, he is like the Eboue of the board, nobody likes him, but for some strange reason he has a cult following on here.

FACT

[MegaGooner]

this is the guy accusing others of stupidity.
...

Don't bother mate, he is like the Eboue of the board, nobody likes him, but for some strange reason he has a cult following on here.

FACT

Aaaaaaw Megagofer....
Do you know how HURT I was when you said "no one likes me"

I cried into my hanky.

Eboue I may be, but you make Gus Cesar look like Baresi...
Next.

I feel sorry for your hanky then

[g88ner]

I can counter that by naming the following players: Messi, Ronaldo, Van Basten, Desailly, Zidane.
Great players generally win trophies. Because they make the difference.
Just as many holes in your argument

Hang on!

You just wrote "Great players generally win trophies." and I totally agree, Baba - they GENERALLY do, but NOT EXCLUSIVELY ....which is what I said you nutter! (hence my P.Neville/RvP example)

So matey, you're actually agreeing with my post yet oddly, you're arguing about it and saying there's holes in it

Is agreeing with me really such a horrible thought, mate?

[clockender1]

I'm talking hypothetically here (not about Podolski) but Germany play more than one striker (Mario Gomez), so when a team plays more than one striker, I think they could, in theory, carry one of them.

they could, granted - but why would you for 95 games ? - especially with a youngster - he's only 26 now, given that at the most international teams place 12-15 games a year, that means ever present for 6-7 years, since he was 19...

and during that time he played striker fro Germany in the World Cup Semi's in 2006 & 2010, and the EURO 2008 Final.

i think that's pedigree isn't it ?

[clockender1]

Don't bother mate, he is like the Eboue of the board, nobody likes him, but for some strange reason he has a cult following on here.

FACT

I think he think's he's a wit.

he's half right.

[g88ner]

i think that's pedigree isn't it ?

Oh, I agree.

If he was a dog, he'd be arriving with a glossy coat.

I'm an optimist, clockender. From what I've read, he could do very well for us