US shooting incidents

[goonersid]

Tragic events, very sad, I was almost in tears listening to the heartbroken parents.
And to see some arsehole from the gun lobby make a statement, saying he was shocked that not one person in the school had a firearm just made me realise what a sick country America is.

[DB10GOONER]

Tragic events, very sad, I was almost in tears listening to the heartbroken parents.
And to see some arsehole from the gun lobby make a statement, saying he was shocked that not one person in the school had a firearm just made me realise what a sick country America is.

Sid, that's a very sweeping statement. You cannot judge an entire country on the actions or opinions of a minority of its people, mate...

[goonersid]

Tragic events, very sad, I was almost in tears listening to the heartbroken parents.
And to see some arsehole from the gun lobby make a statement, saying he was shocked that not one person in the school had a firearm just made me realise what a sick country America is.

Sid, that's a very sweeping statement. You cannot judge an entire country on the actions or opinions of a minority of its people, mate...

I think you misunderstood my post DB, I was referring to the many things that seem to be wrong with the whole American ethos, from the right to bear arms and even to an extent "free speech". It simply open up the door to every lunatic with a grudge. It is a country full of ideals about liberty, freedom and it's own perceived image of morality, yet there isn't a country in the entire world as morally bankrupt as the us.
Countless presidents have now presided over numerous gun massacres, yet bow "good ole boy" gun lobbyists, their hands seemingly tied by an outdated constitution, written by men who had they known what atrocities it would afford, would never have signed it.
Everyone has the right to defend themselves, but no civilian needs a hand gun let alone an Assault rifle.
I was close to tears listening to those parents who lost their little children, yet there was a naivity almost a brainwashed stupidity in their words and their blind faith in a country and a government that has let them down in the most terrible way imaginable.

[g88ner]

There's something fundamentally wrong when a civilised society feels the need to arm themselves against their fellow citizens (who are also, of course, quite legally armed to the teeth).

The whole concept is at odds with what a civilised society should stand for. And amazingly, this is all completely legal and above board. Just pop down to your local friendly gun shop and choose the killing machine of your choice! yee ha!

The fact these shooting sprees are almost a weekly occurrence is disturbing, but the fact that 300 million guns are out there, waiting for any Tom, Dick or [dirty] Harry to pick up is absolutely shocking. How can any civilised society ever think that is acceptable?

Why should a primary school even have to consider having an armoury?

DB10 is correct that guns are, like cars and knives, just inanimate objects and that it's people who cause the destruction, but unlike cars and knives (which have legitimate uses in any civilised society, like driving the kids to school and food preparation), I'm not sure guns are quite the same... they're designed to maim and kill (with staggering efficiency) so perhaps putting these inanimate objects in the hands of millions of untrained people isn't the most sensible thing to do!

With a population of >300 million, it's obviously impossible to monitor the changeable mental health of every single person with access to a gun (and "access" doesn't stop at the person who bought the gun! - which makes a mockery of these background checks) so quite frankly, choosing to arm many of these millions of people is akin to playing Russian Roulette with your own people. Statistically, it must be almost a certainty that this will lead to weekly shooting sprees, countless crimes of passion, a shit load of accidental shootings and God know's how many cases of mistaken identity ending with gun shots and death.

It's a disgrace that it's got to this stage, and shameful that nothing has been done to sort this mess out.

And when you get to a stage that even a rational person like Quartz is admitting he'd want a gun for protection if he moved to the States, you can't help wonder where this vicious circle will ever end? - peaceful people arming themselves to keep them safe has spiraled out of control, and consequently saturated the country with guns which inherently makes it far more dangerous than it ever would have been if only criminals were buying guns... the results - and endless funerals - are there for all to see.

[DB10GOONER]

There's something fundamentally wrong when a civilised society feels the need to arm themselves against their fellow citizens (who are also, of course, quite legally armed to the teeth).


DB10 is correct that guns are, like cars and knives, just inanimate objects and that it's people who cause the destruction, but unlike cars and knives (which have legitimate uses in any civilised society, like driving the kids to school and food preparation), I'm not sure guns are quite the same... they're designed to maim and kill (with staggering efficiency) so perhaps putting these inanimate objects in the hands of millions of untrained people isn't the most sensible thing to do!


And when you get to a stage that even a rational person like Quartz is admitting he'd want a gun for protection if he moved to the States, you can't help wonder where this vicious circle will ever end? - peaceful people arming themselves to keep them safe has spiraled out of control, and consequently saturated the country with guns which inherently makes it far more dangerous than it ever would have been if only criminals were buying guns... the results - and endless funerals - are there for all to see.

Good post g88ner but I can't agree with a couple of points. Guns are not just for killing. They are part of the legitimate sport of target shooting and also hunting. The gun has no intent, only the person using the gun has intent. This is a vital point.

As for the self defence aspect, I agree it is a sorry state of affairs that so many people feel the need to arm themselves but in all honesty that's the world we live in - there are predators and prey. If the scum have guns then I want one to defend my family. Sad but true.

[g88ner]

Guns are not just for killing. They are part of the legitimate sport of target shooting and also hunting. The gun has no intent, only the person using the gun has intent. This is a vital point.

Yeah, there's obviously legitimate reasons to have a gun. Hunting being the main one.

Never really considered target shooting - I suppose, as that's mainly done in clubs, it's easier to control as guns could be kept on site in a central vault at the club? - certainly wouldn't advocate being in a shooting club giving special rights to take a gun home... hmm... not sure.

As for the self defence aspect, I agree it is a sorry state of affairs that so many people feel the need to arm themselves but in all honesty that's the world we live in - there are predators and prey. If the scum have guns then I want one to defend my family. Sad but true.

Which, of course, is the problem. Despite the legitimate reason law abiding citizens want guns (i.e. protection) it's common sense that if you flood the market with guns, you're just - in the long run - exacerbating the problem.

But that's America. They've armed the nation ffs, so shooting sprees will continue most weeks of the year. No doubt another will hit the news before the end of 2012. It would be abnormal if it didn't.

By the way, I hope it didn't come across as a dig at Quartz ( ) but more just highlighting how ridiculous a situation it is over there that law abiding citizens actually feel they NEED to protect themselves from people who also legally bought guns! - the government should be protecting their people not fueling the problem!

Then again, perhaps just as in 'The Walking Dead', America is just arming itself to the teeth so it's prepared for the inevitable zombie invasion where having a nationwide Arsenal (love that word ) is actually essential. Over here on Blighty, what protection from zombies have we got? with no ready supply of guns around, we'd be reduced to throwing cups of tea at them and shouting "look here old chap, I'm frighteningly sorry but could you please stop eating my wife and toodle off. There's a good zombie!"

[northbank123]

Completely agree G88ner - the problem is self-perpetuating given that the country is absolutely inundated with firearms.

The crux of it is that the ready availability of guns to every single citizen and the commonplace nature of guns within a culture is going to result in a far higher rate of fire-arms related death. As evidenced by USA's statistics on homicides involving fire-arms.

[the playing mantis]

the right to bear arms is one of the only things most yanks know is in the constituion. its crazy how easy it is for them to get them and i work with and know many yanks who think the same, but question their ultimate right to have a gun at all and they defend that right usually.

as krusty the klown put it, they justify guns to stop the king of england waltzing in an pushing them around and to hunt dangerous and delicious animals.

likewise al ot are scared. they justify it by saying they have a gun, we need one for protection.

i dont think guns are the main issue; sure if they didnt have them u wouldnt have gun massacres, but i think u would have other atrocites, knife maasacres, home made bombs, nail bombs etc. the problem is the country itself. i love america and americans but there are an awful lot of screwballs there which is always likely to happen in such a large populace in the developed world, where these screwballs become marginalised, be it this geeky loner who did this or someone else, by the fact they are supposedly in the land of oportunity and the greatest nation in the world (according to them) yet they themselves (the screwballs) are not living the dream as it were, so become resentful, and have the means to get their 'revenge'

i suspect the same thing would happen in any large population (there are always a few nutcases) if the country was developed and had similar american values/perceptions.

as for the uk method its good, but its really not that difficult to obtain a firearms license here. sure its a rigourous proedure, buts thats really for the storage and your state of mind checks. the reasons you need to give for wanting/needing a gun are valid but in reality lots of people justication to these methods, ie pest control etc, are extremely tenous and not vigourously checked.

[Perryashburtongroves]

As a teacher and a parent my heart goes out to the kids, teachers and parents. Nobody should ever have to go through what they have. RIP.

[QuartzGooner]

G88ner

Did not think you were criticizing me.

Just a sad thing that if I ever lived in the USA, I would want to own a gun to protect my property.

I am not too clued up, but is there another gun owning country where such massacres take place, or is this a mainly American phenomenon?
I often read about people attacking schools in China with axes and knives though.

[DB10GOONER]

g88ner, when the inevitable zombie apocalypse happens you will be fucked as you are not armed. I will be ok as I am armed. Do you see?



But even as a supporter of the right to gun ownership and a fan of shooting, I absolutely agree there should be severely tight restrictions on ownership and also limitations regarding types of guns/ammo allowed. There is no sports shooter or hunter that needs a semi-auto assault rifle (they are mostly shit for both because most are not accurate weapons over distance). Similarly there is no excuse for high capacity magazines or high velocity ammo.

I'd also question why anyone needs to own multiple guns. The sick fuck that killed the poor little kids in that school had access to a .223 caliber Bushmaster XM-15 rifle, a 10mm Glock 20 SF handgun, a 9mm SIG Sauer handgun, a shotgun, a .45 Henry repeating rifle, a .30 Enfield rifle, and a .22 Marlin rifle - all legally owned by his mother.

The XM-15 is an M4 type assault rifle that can take a hi-capacity mag. It is semi-auto which means whilst you cannot just suppress the trigger and spray, it still fires as fast as you can pull and release the trigger. Such a weapon has no real use in hunting or sport shooting but is a deadly effective killing weapon.

Some form of gun control is vital and I think America really has to look at tightening it up, but of course there is very little desire amongst politicians to take on the powerful NRA.

As I say I believe in the right to bear arms but also that not everyone should have that right, and that it must be enforced with strict limitations and safety controls.

[OneBardGooner]

I have friends who live in Michigan, both of whom are teachers (Children Educators - the americans do love to use more words than necessary don't they! ), the husband of the couple is ex-forces(black Ops shyte and stuff) and he teaches 8 - 11 yr olds...He loves his job and is loved and liked by all the kids...But, he is the 'Security Marshall (due to his background) and even in a school of all kids (5 - 11 yrs old) they have a set procedure they would go into should anything like this happen. They also have an armed (ex-policeman) guard - on the school entrance. I also know that he has a gun in a locked wall safe in his classroom.

And apparently this is a regular or not unusual set up.

In the area where they live 95% of households have guns (mainly rifles for hunting - though some belong to gun clubs and also have handguns) and they often hear of a marital dispute going haywire and one of the couple shooting either themselves, the other or both....

If someone is angry over something - and they have a gun - there is far more chance of them - in that angry state - of reacting by using their gun - If they do not have a gun - the chances of them doing as much serious harm to another surely has to be far less - and even 'cooling down' by time they think of how they want to hurt someone because if they don't have a gun to hand, then perhaps they will think twice etc.


I have been to the US quite often and spent time there business and holidays...and remember a highway shooting in California - some driver had 'cut up' another on the free-way...and so (road rage) he drove up alongside - pulled a gun from his glove compartment and shot the other driver - a woman with 2 kids in the back seat!...I mean WTF!? but that is How It Is and How People Are IN the US..feckin' crazy - and definitlet not sane and safe enough to own a lethal weapon.


The NRA (National Rifle Association) are extreme in their attitudes...I think it was that *word censored* the actor charlton heston - who used to be their president saying - a few days after the columbine massacre - "If they want to take my gun away, they'll have to take it out of my dead hand" - which was insensitive to say the least, but that's what the anti-gun lobbyists are up against.

There are so many guns in private ownership now (both legally and illegally) that it would be nigh on impossible to confiscate them all. Also, the arms industry (weapons and ammunition - and gun clubs/shooting ranges) turns over hundreds of millions every year...It's all about Profit, though some say it's about Freedom and the right to bear arms.

I heard on radio 4 this morning that the sales of automatic weapons has increased by 250% since the shootings at Newton, because people are afraid there will be ban imposed on those kinds of weapons and so they are stock piling...

[OneBardGooner]

g88ner, when the inevitable zombie apocalypse happens you will be fucked as you are not armed. I will be ok as I am armed. Do you see?



But even as a supporter of the right to gun ownership and a fan of shooting, I absolutely agree there should be severely tight restrictions on ownership and also limitations regarding types of guns/ammo allowed. There is no sports shooter or hunter that needs a semi-auto assault rifle (they are mostly shit for both because most are not accurate weapons over distance). Similarly there is no excuse for high capacity magazines or high velocity ammo.

I'd also question why anyone needs to own multiple guns. The sick fuck that killed the poor little kids in that school had access to a .223 caliber Bushmaster XM-15 rifle, a 10mm Glock 20 SF handgun, a 9mm SIG Sauer handgun, a shotgun, a .45 Henry repeating rifle, a .30 Enfield rifle, and a .22 Marlin rifle - all legally owned by his mother.

The XM-15 is an M4 type assault rifle that can take a hi-capacity mag. It is semi-auto which means whilst you cannot just suppress the trigger and spray, it still fires as fast as you can pull and release the trigger. Such a weapon has no real use in hunting or sport shooting but is a deadly effective killing weapon.

Some form of gun control is vital and I think America really has to look at tightening it up, but of course there is very little desire amongst politicians to take on the powerful NRA.

As I say I believe in the right to bear arms but also that not everyone should have that right, and that it must be enforced with strict limitations and safety controls.

Thing is DB as in all things - Both you and I know full well that there will Always be those who seek and find a way around those rules, limitations etc...It is the same with all things...An invention is made - and regardless of how it was 'meant' to be used, in a positive way, there will always be those who (usually for Profit) that will find a way to use it for less altruistic purposes and reasons.

I really don't know what the answer is, or if there is one...BUr Something Has To Be Done".....how long before there is another Dunblane or Columbine or Newton...sad and horrible but true.

[Yankee_Gooner_Dandee]

you and i and everyone else on this forum will be long gone from this world before this country makes guns illegal. i personally hate guns, not a hunter, and will probably never own a gun. however, if you had kids and a family to protect and lived anywhere near a major city you would want to own a gun to keep in your house just in case something ever did happen. i mean, going at a burgler who has a gun, with a baseball bat in your hand doesn't really cut it.

[g88ner]

you and i and everyone else on this forum will be long gone from this world before this country makes guns illegal. i personally hate guns, not a hunter, and will probably never own a gun. however, if you had kids and a family to protect and lived anywhere near a major city you would want to own a gun to keep in your house just in case something ever did happen. i mean, going at a burgler who has a gun, with a baseball bat in your hand doesn't really cut it.

Is being in your house with a burglar a common event in the states?

In England it's so rare that counter measures (i.e. having a weapon to hand) isn't really an issue it's just not something you have to deal with.

In fact, I always thought the "what would you do if a burglar had a gun..." scenario was scaremongering from the pro-gun brigade to justify their position - is it really that frequent an event?