How the Fuck!!!!?????

[tenementfunster5]

Did anyone see the number of Liverpool fans in the Arsenal sections on wed. I was sat in the upper tier above the away end. When they scored to my right, level with the halfway line were about 50 - 100 scousers. How the fuck did they get in there? It's not like they all got tickets from touts 'cos they were concentrated in one area. The stewards and police seemed not to give a shit and just let them carry on. I have written to the club to complain and would hope they look into it, but knowing Arsenal they wont bother.

[bergkamp10]

Couldn't agree more...

The hassle I had at away games this season, even standing up in some grounds is banned, and your treated like a criminal.

Into treacherous territory this Tuesday...

[dorset_gooner]

Dont hold your breath mate - have written about similar things, and heard FA

[TheOne2Smooth]

Scouser will obtain tickets by ant measure, As we already know mugging Younger Liverpool fans for there tickets, I'm sorry but they blame everyone else other than these types for the Hillsborough disaster

[BOJDE LFC]

Scouser will obtain tickets by ant measure, As we already know mugging Younger Liverpool fans for there tickets, I'm sorry but they blame everyone else other than these types for the Hillsborough disaster

This one should hopefully get through to you. This article does not mention the sun just so you know.

A total of 96 fans died as a result of the hillsborough disaster. Here is a very brief analysis of how and why.



The Hillsborough stadium.

The disaster of 1989 was not the first time serious crushing had occurred at this stadium.
In 1981, Wolves played Spurs in the semi final at Hillsborough. Wolves fans were allocated the enormous kop stand while Spurs, despite having the bigger following were allocated the much smaller leppings lane terrace. The result was a massive overcrowding and crush. Police allowed affected supporters out of the enclosure. 38 supporters were injured. The Football Association were so concerned they moved the FA Cup Semi final matches away from the ground for six years until 1987.

This prompted swfc to alter the design of the terrace, dividing it into 5 pens, despite this, there is evidence of crushing in 1987, 88 and with fatal consequences in 1989.(see para 181 interim Taylor report)

In both the 88 and 89 semi final liverpool challenged the decision to allocate the smaller terrace section to their supporters. The first objection in 88 was due to the size of the allocation the 2nd objection was due to the complaints of crushing fans had experienced in 1988. The police refused to switch ends. (para 36 itr)

The Pens.

The official capacity of the central pens was estimated to be around 2000, however the Health and Safety Executive later found that this should have been reduced to around 1600 as the crush barriers did not conform to the Guide to Safety at Sports Grounds 1986. It is estimated that the number of liverpool supporters in these pens shortly after kick off at 3.00pm was over 3000. This overcrowding caused the fatal crush.

The distribution of supporters in each pen.

It is widely acknowledged that the central pens(3&4) were overcrowed prior to kick off while the pens to the wings(1,2,6&7) were relatively sparse. john motson on BBC makes reference to the empty wing pen.
The police had also noted the uneven distribution and overcrowding and made a tannoy announcement for the fans in the central pen to move forward to make room for others(para 59 I.t.r)

At no point did Police attempt to close the central pens and filter fans into the wing areas.

Protocol for directing the fans.

This was David duckenfields first time in charge of handling a semi final. It had been common practice for the doors at the head of the tunnel to be closed once police estimated the central pen were full and for the remaining fans to be directed to the outer pens. On this occasion no such forethought to follow this practice was given as duckenfield gave the order to open the gate.

Earlier that afternoon Chief Inspector Creaser asked Superintendent Murray whether the pens should be filled one by one successively, but was told that they should all be available and the fans should find their own level. (para 58 itr)

The decision to open access gate c and the consequences.

The decision to open the gate undoubtedly relieved the congestion outside the turnstiles. Police claim they couldn't have forseen the consequences of opening the gate, allowing the supporter to walk undirected towards the already central pens. Two witness refute this, stephen mitton a liverpool supporter saw mr jack stone, a club steward, tell the officer that there'd be a crush if the gates were open. Mr stone eventually handed over the keys to the officer saying this is your responsibility not mine.(report by peter davenport and David sapsted).PC mark long, the man who opened the gate is currently serving time for fraud. SYP''s lack of forethought, communication and decision not to follow protocol was critisized by lord Taylor throughout his report - however the decision to open the gate and not direct the fans to the empty wing pens was described by Taylor as 'a blunder of the first magnitude'(para 231 itr)


The notion of 'inrushing' supporters on the central pens

Its commonly held belief that ticketless liverpool supporters who entered via gate c rushed into the all ready full central pens and the affect was the liverpool supporters at the front were crushed to death.(see daily politics show as latest example) CCTV shows that while the gate was open for 5 minutes, supporters walked into the ground and without direction headed unknowingly straight for the already full central pens via a 40 foot long, dark tunnel.
40 of the 96 victims died in the tunnel.

Controlling the crowds

Both SYP and Liverpool Supporters believe that a loss of control contributed to the disaster. The reasons why control was lost is where the two groups differ.

South Yorkshire Police make the admission of a loss of control on their part but accuse liverpool supporters of being late, drunk, ticketless, aggressive and unruly leaving the police with little option to allow them entrance to the ground and central pens.

The first allegation made against liverpool supporters came from Chief super intendant David Duckenfield. As the disaster unfolded he declared liverpool fans had forced the gate open and there had been an inrush of fans (BBC TV camera filming the outside of the stadium proved this was a lie.) (para 283 itr)

The alleged aggressive behaviour was inferred by a line of police officers formed on the halfway line as if to segregate liverpool supporters from forest supporters. As fans spilled onto the pitch Mr Motson, the BBC commentator, recognised and said, well before the match was stopped, that the trouble seemed to be overcrowding and not misbehaviour.

Further inferences were made public via TV, radio and press. Police federation officer Paul Middup was interviewed by ITV later that evening stated that the fans were worse for drink, were ‘hell-bent on getting in’ and ‘500 plus’ were without tickets. Analysis of the electronic monitoring system, Health and Safety Executive Analysis and eye witness accounts however showed that there wasnt a high number of ticketless fans. The HSE gave three figures based on their analysis, the first fig, was 9267, their 'best estimate' was 9734 and their third figure was a 'maximum estimate' of 10124. Even their 'maximum' estimate shows there were only 24 people more than the 10100 allocated. (see 5.8 of hse report OR para 200/1/2/3 itr)

Irvine patnick went a step further in his damning allegations to The S*n newspaper saying some liverpool fans pickpockted from the dead, some fans urinated on the dead, some fans beat up brave pc giving the kiss of life. Irvine patnick was the only conservative mp in south yorkshire, he wasn't the mp for hillsborough he was mp for Sheffield hallem, he wasn't at the game or witnessed any of the above but his comments were widely used in the press - not a single witness at the enquiry supported any of those allegations(para 257 itr)

The day after the disaster PM Margaret thatcher and her press secretary were shown round the stadium and visited the fans in hospital. Bernard Ingham later said:"‘ I know what I learned on the spot. There would have been no Hillsborough if a mob, clearly tanked up, had not tried to force their way into the ground." Later on in emails to me he admits he never spoke to a single liverpool supporter nor sought their opinion regarding what happend/went wrong.

On the 21st of April, Douglas herd, inferred in the house of commons that 19 police officers had been assaulted at hillsborough and that south yorkshire police were collating the information to pass on to the inquiry. On the 3rd of may 1989, he was unable to state how those injuries were sustained upon questioning. No mention of these 19 injured officers was made in the interim Taylor inquiry. During the disaster, 18000 photographs were taken and 71 hours of film footage. In not one picture or in any video footage can be found to support such notions of police officers being physically assaulted.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Liverpool supporters attribute the disaster to a failure of police control and lack of communication and organisation. (para 223/4/5 itr)

The first criticism aimed at the police was there refusal to switch the allocation and give the larger crowd the larger section of ground. The refusal meant 24'256 liverpool supporters had to enter via 23 turnstiles, for the leppings lane, there were only 7 turnstiles for 10'100 supporters. In contrast Forest fans were given an allocation of 29,800 and 60turnstiles.(para 187 itr) Taylor believes that if the allocation was switched the outcome could have been the same for forest supporters(para 272 itr)

The interim Taylor report makes several reference's to the awarded allocations, the information on the tickets, the confusing layout of the stadium, the poor sign posting as contributing to the large crowd outside the turnstiles.

Supporters also criticizes the decision not to pre filter the fans ahead of the turnstiles. The procedure was used in the 88 semi final allowing fans with seated and stand tickets to be filtered and given direction. Taylor also criticised the decision to open the gate as opposed to delaying the kick off. Two police officers are noted as informing duckenfield that they couldn't get all fans inside the ground by 3pm and to delay kickoff. Their objections were noted but rejected. (para 62&65 itr)

Taylor also criticised Sheffield Wednesday Football Club, their safety engineers and the local authority which had failed to issue an up-to-date licence for the stadium. But he directed his most damning conclusions towards South Yorkshire police.

Most importantly the interim Taylor report systematically dismisses theories of bad behaviour, drunkenness, ticketless liverpool supporters as a contributing factor to the disaster and the reason why the police lost control.

The police response to the disaster

As the disaster unfolded - David duckenfield said he 'froze'. Vital minutes that could have been used to save lives were wasted during this period.

In the police control room - the officers overlooked the leppings lane terrace, they had access to 5 TV screens which were capturing live CCTV images. The cameras all had zoom ability and were fully functional on the day.(para 50 I.t.r) They also had available the option of radio communication with officers around the stadium (para 53 I.t.r)

Just as supporters questioned the lack of control and organisation prior to entering the ground, in the midst of the tragedy, fellow syp police officers, st johns ambulance men, doctors, medics also criticised the lack of communication and organisation to treat the injured.

The liverpool supporters response to the disaster.

Liverpool supporters took the initiative - they tried to help, those in the upper area reached down to help pull those out of the central pens. They used advertising boards and tried to resuscitate the injured. (see TV footage) Taylor describes the efforts of these supporters as magnificent.

The lack of criminal proceeding against South Yorkshire Police.

On the 4th of august 1989 the interim report of Lord Justice Taylor was published. He found that there were a number of causes for the disaster, the immediate cause being the failure, when gate C was opened, to cut off access to the central pens which were already overfull. He criticised senior officers for “failure of controlâ€

[thatgooner]

That was a bit senseless refering to hillsborough.
Although i would like to know why there was liverpool fans in the home section.

[Red Gunner]

Did anyone see the number of Liverpool fans in the Arsenal sections on wed. I was sat in the upper tier above the away end. When they scored to my right, level with the halfway line were about 50 - 100 scousers. How the fuck did they get in there? It's not like they all got tickets from touts 'cos they were concentrated in one area. The stewards and police seemed not to give a shit and just let them carry on. I have written to the club to complain and would hope they look into it, but knowing Arsenal they wont bother.

Same happened when I went to the Steaua Bucharest match. When Steaua scored there were people celebrating in the exact sections as well. Quite surprised really

[DB10GOONER]

Hillsborough was a terrible tragedy. I remember watching it unfold live on TV. Awful scenes. But Smoothy has a point.

The Pool fans were partially responsible for what happened that day (and I know it's not PC or socially acceptable to say that but it is truth). Yes the Policing failed hugely but the Pool fans contributed to this.

The reports into it are not agreed upon by everyone. The police and stewards (and some very quiet Pool fans) believe it was partially the Pool fans faults for entering those overcrowded areas. The majority of Pool fans won't agree with that. The problem is that alot of Pool fans have developed a persecution complex and cannot accept it wasn't totally someone elses fault. They have to have someone to blame.

A lad I work with was in Athens for their CL final and they did the same thing again; hordes of ticketless fans entered already crowded areas in the stadium. He's a big Pool fan but even he was disgusted by what he saw that night in Athens. There were a few muggings for tickets that night too, which is disgraceful.

People have to take responsibility for their own actions.

[Cockerill's chin]

Bojde - senseless and tasteless.

If you are goinig to revert to a disaster, try and make it relevant otherwise you do those involved no justice you f**kwit

[gooner.ed]

there are good and bad amongst the liverpool fans just like any other team's bunch of fans. hillsborough was f**king awful and the idea of it still haunts me to this day. as do heysel and bradford.

but what really saddens me is that there are still some chancers amongst the liverpool support who have not learned the lessons of the tragedy in 1989. so we had athens in 2007 with hordes of ticketless fans getting into the stadium and many valid ticket holders left outside.

on weds night as ashburton, they had to close six of the eight away turnstiles because a lot of the entrants were squeezing two bodies through the turnstile for every one ticket. a tight squeeze but do-able. the stewards weren't equipped to cope so they presumably grouped up outside (or maybe inside?) the two open turnstiles to prevent the abuse. that is what i've heard anyway. obviously some later arrivals may have been rightly aggrieved at this, but might not have known the reason.

as for scousers in the home sections. touts will sell to anyone, so no surprise there. the club should look into this though and ban the memberships used to get away fans in areas reserved for the home support. amazed there wasn't more trouble.

[Cesc is God]

I got a story about that. I forgot my season ticket so I went to the box office before the game...

and this scouser was next to me talking to the bird behind the counter and he said 'THAT HE GOT TICKETS FROM A MATE IN LONDON ... BUT THEY'RE IN THE ARSENAL END'

... It must of been him and his gang!!!

[BOJDE LFC]

I agree that a minority(not all) of lfc fans tried to push their way in, but this is to be expected and the police just let them in.

[olgitgooner]

Hillsborough was awful. No blame attached to Pool fans of course. They were quite within their rights to turn up late. And pissed. And push against all the fans in front of them. Instead of standing still.

Heysel was terrible too. Can´t blame Pool fans can we?

English clubs got banned from Europe.

We are now forced to sit at matches.

All because of Liverpools wonderful fans.

[BOJDE LFC]

Just found this.

Youngsters kicked out of Emirates for being "Scousers"

A Dream trip to the quarter-finals of the Champions League quickly turned into a nightmare for a young football team from Skelmersdale.

The Arriva Youth under-15s had won a once-in-a-lifetime prize of free tickets to watch Liverpool’s clash with Arsenal last night (Wednesday).

But the evening soon turned sour when they were unceremoniously ejected from the Emirates Stadium.

Bizarrely seated amongst the hard-core element of Arsenal supporters, the football-mad youngsters were victims of a torrent of abuse from adult Gunner supporters.

As proud Liverpool fans, the under-15s celebrated Dirk Kuyt’s 26th minute equaliser, but they were soon turfed out.

Arsenal stewards escorted the boys, and the three adults accompanying them, from their seats and out of the ground.

Stranded outside in unfamiliar surroundings, the children and their guardians went looking for answers but were refused entry back into the stadium.

Ray Radford, manager of the U-15s, was furious at the way his team had been treated and demanded that his shocked players get back in to watch the game.

He said: "We were having a great day until Liverpool scored. We were seated smack bang in the lion’s den and were abused by grown men - men in suits.

"These weren’t louts. They started shouting at the lads as soon as they realised we were Scousers.

"They started shouting about Michael Shields and Heysel - it was pandemonium.

"After we’d celebrated Kuyt’s goal, we were spoken to by the stewards and told to leave the ground.

"Even though I explained to him that the lads were guests of UEFA, because of the competition win, they still chucked us out."

Left stricken outside the ground the lads, wearing special UEFA tracksuits given to them as prize winners, continued to be hurled with abuse from passing footy yobs.

Radford eventually managed to get hold of a female UEFA official but he says she was of little help.

Ray added: "The female UEFA official said we weren’t allowed back in the ground and just left us there.

"We eventually walked round to a part of the stadium we recognised and managed to talk to the UEFA project manager, a guy called Simon Calder.

"He apologised for what had happened saying it was 'unacceptable, appalling and totally unprofessional'.

"But he said that Arsenal were not going to allow us back in the ground.

"We were eventually granted access back to our mini-bus but were not allowed to leave the ground until 11pm.

"By this stage, the lads were very anxious, quiet and very, very scared.

"They were stressed and because we weren’t allowed back in the ground, we missed the rest of the game."

The Advertiser spoke to Ollie Tritton but he declined to comment. UEFA official Simon Calder was unavailable for comment.

What a disgrace! I assume they were sitting around were you are talking about?

[BOJDE LFC]

Hillsborough was awful. No blame attached to Pool fans of course. They were quite within their rights to turn up late. And pissed. And push against all the fans in front of them. Instead of standing still.

Heysel was terrible too. Can´t blame Pool fans can we?

English clubs got banned from Europe.

We are now forced to sit at matches.

All because of Liverpools wonderful fans.

This also happened at a Sheffield Wednesday v Wolves game so it was eventually going to happen.