Israel/Gaza

[Chippy]

Sid



The killing of the children is justified,

Wow, just fucking wow. At least you are also honest, if however just a teeny bit immoral.

[flash gunner]

Sid



The killing of the children is justified,

Wow, just fucking wow. At least you are also honest, if however just a teeny bit immoral.

Blimey Quartz you totally wrong here mate i'm shocked you could say such a thing

[flash gunner]

And meanwhile nothing changes, political leaders use Jews/Israel as a scapegoat to gain cheap popularity to hide their own deficiencies

Really? Members of the British government resigning over our inaction..... USA, Britain and Europe all being very economical with the condemnation of Israel whilst bombarding Russia with sanctions for less!!!!. Youve got it the wrong way round mate

[rodders999]

And to think they once gave Obama the Nobel peace prize

Fucking hell a guy who's complete silence and quiet backing literally endorses children being blown to bits. What a fucking prick he turned out to be.

[QuartzGooner]

Yes Sid, to clarify lest there be ambiguity:

The killing of Gazan children is very very sad and horrible and I wish it did not happen but considering the Hamas threat, it is justified in this war, because it is part of the process of squashing the power of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al Queda and IS who all operate in Gaza.

Hamas love death, they place their civilians in the firing line.

And meanwhile nothing changes, political leaders use Jews/Israel as a scapegoat to gain cheap popularity to hide their own deficiencies

Members of the British government resigning over our inaction

One person resigned.
A Muslim.
Not exactly impartial is she?

USA, Britain and Europe all being very economical with the condemnation of Israel

Are these governments the very paragon of moral correctness?
The UK government is not a dictatorship of course, but how many MPs have been caught already for fiddling their expenses?
They are not massively well paid considering current house prices and costs of living, and do work very long hours, but they ripped off the tax payers nonetheless.
They speak as the inheritors of a country that has exported violence to many parts of the globe in the form of Empire, a country that grew rich in part from slave trading.
Not that everything Empire brought to colonies was bad, it had positive benefits too on the colonies.

We have had it both barrels in terms of criticism from foreign governments!
But certainly the USA, the UK and some members of the EU (Italy, Romania) have military relationships with Israel, and so have an understanding of what we face and a mutual interest.


And look at the ratios of Civilian to Military deaths for the Allies in the (Second) Iraq War and the Afghanistan War, much higher than Israel's:


Civilian to Terrorist death ratio in Gaza was 1:1.
The Civilian to Terrorist death ratio in Iraq was 4:1.
In Afghanistan it was 3:1.

whilst bombarding Russia with sanctions for less!!!!

British sanctions against Israel are currently being discussed in the form of revoking licences to sell arms.

Russia

Russian backed rebels blasted a Malaysian airliner out of the sky.
Was it a mistake?
Or was it a revenge for the murder of Shaariibuugiin Altantuyaa?
I cannot say, it goes deep into the realms of the shadowy world of possible industrial espionage and illicit tax evasion payments and I am not involved in Mongolian-Malaysian diplomatic circles.

Youve got it the wrong way round mate

I know what I think, and I know what Hamas cynically do and I know one of my countries (I have two passports) is under threat from a merciless Jihadi force who were on the verge of invading in late September in a plot that would have seen at least 20,000 Israeli civilians killed and around 450 kidnapped, who have been firing rockets for years and launching suicide bomb attacks and mortar attacks on civilians.

The world is either stuck on

"All killing is bad, let's be neutral" which is just a neglect of moral stance.

Or

"Israel must be bad because civilians have died"

Which is just a knee-jerk reaction without examination of causes and motive and morals.

Or

"Israel is bad because it has stolen Palestinian land"

Which is a massive ignorance or eschewing of history.

Rodders

I am no big fan of Obama but he has been very vocal on the war.

[officepest]

Whilst nothing you posted was offensive or insulting or ignorant, and you made a good point I'm deleting the posts as you requested, mate. Deleting mine too. You are right, there's enough tension on here without dragging the Irish/British thing into it. Peace. - DB10

[GranadaJoe]

Youve got it the wrong way round mate

I know what I think, and I know what Hamas cynically do and I know one of my countries (I have two passports) is under threat from a merciless Jihadi force who were on the verge of invading in late September in a plot that would have seen at least 20,000 Israeli civilians killed and around 450 kidnapped, who have been firing rockets for years and launching suicide bomb attacks and mortar attacks on civilians.


Do you have a personal spy in the Hamas hierachy, or are you just able to predict the future? Dates, numbers killed and kidnapped! Do you know next week's Lottery numbers?

[DB10GOONER]

TBH I'd like to lock it as it's just getting more bitter and people are not going to change their views so it's going round in circles. Also, whilst we do discuss everything and anything on here I've always felt discussing politics and religion only lead to conflict and detract from what is an Arsenal fan forum.

But I also don't want to be a censor of a person's right to post. If it's kept within the rules of the forum regarding libel and abuse then I can't justify locking it.

[REB]

quartz is the IDF spokesman that goes on the news every night to justify the slaughter of innocents

[DB10GOONER]

Oh man, I'm gonna regret this but, fuck it, I'm throwing in my tuppance too!

Historically I've always been sympathetic to the Isrealis. For many reasons too longwinded and complex to go into here. But I've always supported their right to exist and to kick ass in self defence.

But even I am appalled by the overkill in Gaza and believe they have gone too far. Now, I do not believe for a minute that the likes of the BBC and SlyNews are telling us the whole truth and I don't believe Isreal is evil and the poor Hamas are victims, but I do believe that Isreal have overstepped the line in the sand from acceptable combat activity/colateral damage to slaughter of civilians.

Also, Quartz, mate - I cannot believe you can make a comment like "The killing of the children is justified". It never is, in any context. I'm struggling to believe you really believe that and I hope you don't. I don't know if you have kids, man. But if you do, sit down with them tonight and look at them and appreciate them and then try to imagine what it would be like to lose them.

[QuartzGooner]

Do you have a personal spy in the Hamas hierachy, or are you just able to predict the future? Dates, numbers killed and kidnapped! Do you know next week's Lottery numbers?

I suggest you read a bit more around the subject before pouring scorn on what I wrote.
The IDF uncovered hundreds of Israeli army uniforms in the Hamas attack tunnels, along with duct tape.
We have captured a few hundred Hamas personnel, and interrogated them.
They had a plan for Rosh Hashona (Jewish New Year) which comes at the end of September.
Around 200 Hamas were going to enter Israel through the tunnels, go into villages and border communities, kill as many civilians as possible and then kidnap as many as possible through the tunnels and use them as human shields in Gaza, and torture them.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 33,00.html


DB10Gooner

I could have written "Israeli military response is justified. An inevitable result is that children will die, because Hamas embed themselves in residential areas, and also prevent some civilians from leaving despite advance Israel warnings of which neighbourhoods will be targeted."

In fact I have posted that a few times on this thread and others.

Would it have been any different from writing that "Killing children is justified?"

Would the anti-Semitic brigade and the anti-Israel posters have considered it differently?

I think not.

Is the intentional targetting of children justified in war?
No.
And it is not done by the IDF.

But the Israeli military action is intentional and justified, and it is an inevitable consequence that civilians die.

As for Israel "Overstepping the mark" that is a utopian comment.
The Hamas attack tunnels had to be destroyed, no way a country can allow it's enemies to have tunnels under it's border and into it's civilian areas.
Even the ardent left-wing politicians in Israel agreed on this.

I find it hard to understand how someone such as yourself who has a knowledge of military matters cannot see how operational demands have neccesitated returning fire?
I mention again the battle for Shajaiya where Israeli infantry where searching for tunnels.
They came under fire not just from Hamas fighters in buildings, but also popping up out of tunnels, from suicide bombers running out of alleys, Hamas dressed as civilians pretending to ask for water then throwing grenades, and a large use of booby trapped properties and tripwires.
The IDF knew it would lose 600 men in the space of minutes when they were trapped in a neighbourhood.
They were ordered to go inside their APCs which are shell proof.
The artillery then opened up on the area Hamas were firing from, flattening ten buildings in as many minutes.
The Hamas fighter in the area were killed or fled.

Them or us.

[northbank123]

Seems quite odd to me that a number of these terrorists who willingly risk their lives for the opportunity to slaughter Israelis would happily divulge exact details of their biggest plan to do so under legal questioning.

[SPUDMASHER]

Sorry Quartz but most of what you've posted on this thread is shameful.

I'm embarrassed for you on this one. If I were you I'd give this up now to save digging an even deeper hole for yourself.

337 childrens names appeared in the press earlier this week. They have all died since the start of this latest round of aggression. There is simply no excuse for that.......none whatsoever.

I think Israel needs to stop blaming all of this on Hamas. They were fighting regularly with Palestine long before Hamas came along. In fact, Israel is probably solely responsible for the creation of Hamas.


Shameful behaviour from a so called developed country. I cannot believe anyone has the gaul to back them.

[Yankee_Gooner_Dandee]

there's a reason why atheism is on the rise each and every year.


the middle east has always been at war, will always be at war, and it nothing else matter. religion at its finest.


its time to evolve. hopefully in the next millennium all religion will cease to exist. MAYBE then there will be some resemblance of peace and order. probably not though.

Read an interesting article on BBC about atheism in the USA actually. The idea of an Atheism Society or whatever seemed a bit nuts but even being aware that the USA is a more aggressively religious society, I was absolutely amazed at the stigma people faced for admitting to being atheist.

It's really only a stigma if you're in the south of the country. The southern US is heavily religious and if you're not, then I suggest moving north or west.

[QuartzGooner]

Seems quite odd to me that a number of these terrorists who willingly risk their lives for the opportunity to slaughter Israelis would happily divulge exact details of their biggest plan to do so under legal questioning.

They were interrogated.
The uniforms were found in the tunnels.


Spud and everyone else

I am not embarrassed nor ashamed to have written what I have.
Not in the slightest.
I write it is sad for children to die, but a clear result of the nature of the foe we fight, the nature of the environment we fight in.

This idea of "digging a hole"reflects your worldviews, your mindstates.

Israel having the "Right to defend itself" means quite literally using military force.
Between wars that is usually firing the odd missile from an air force jet at a car or motorbike carrying Hamas or Islamic Jihad terrorists.
It get a 30 second mention on the UK news, a paragraph or two in the papers.
During wars it means civilian casualties against a foe who uses human shields.

This is war against an enemy who has a declared aim to kill every Jew worldwide.
My thinking is quite clearly far removed from the rest of the Forum, but then again none of you others who have posted on this thread are Jewish or Israeli, or if you are you have not said so.