The 'I told you so' EU referendum - Officially the Worst Thread Ever

[DB10GOONER]

Im kind of thinking that if O'bama and Cameron want us in then it must be good for us to be out !

I'm kind of thinking that if Boris, Gove, IDS and Farage want us out then it must be good to be in.

Fair point though.

[Herd]

Im kind of thinking that if O'bama and Cameron want us in then it must be good for us to be out !

I'm kind of thinking that if Boris, Gove, IDS and Farage want us out then it must be good to be in.

yes there is that too but I think they use them to fool us

[SPUDMASHER]

Coming out will have absolutely no effect on the migrant crisis whatsoever. In order to trade with the Eu they will impose similar sanctions to those imposed on Norway. If you want to trade then you have to accept migration! Simple as really!

Personally I can see pro's and con's for both and would welcome an evening of live TV debate between the two camps. I think that is the only way that the general public are going to get any kind of balanced argument. Most of what we're hearing today is scaremongering on behalf of those that want to remain. I actually think that Cameron, on a personal level, is quite happy for us to come out (DB10 Hasn't yet, in case anyone was wondering) but from a political perspective i.e. being the prime minister, he has to campaign to stay in.

I'm reserving judgement until nearer the time but I'm leaning towards Brexit at the moment.

[nut flush gooner]

Coming out will have absolutely no effect on the migrant crisis whatsoever. In order to trade with the Eu they will impose similar sanctions to those imposed on Norway. If you want to trade then you have to accept migration! Simple as really!

Personally I can see pro's and con's for both and would welcome an evening of live TV debate between the two camps. I think that is the only way that the general public are going to get any kind of balanced argument. Most of what we're hearing today is scaremongering on behalf of those that want to remain. I actually think that Cameron, on a personal level, is quite happy for us to come out (DB10 Hasn't yet, in case anyone was wondering) but from a political perspective i.e. being the prime minister, he has to campaign to stay in.

I'm reserving judgement until nearer the time but I'm leaning towards Brexit at the moment.

DC as a moderate conservative is firmly in favour of remaining in the EU. Remember the Tories have been fighting over Europe since the Thatcher days. This is an issue that has consistently divided the party.

[nut flush gooner]

Hope you have enough tin foil for the hat mate.

There is nothing tinfoil about it mate. This is all out in the open and regularly admitted to.

The EU should "do its best to undermine the homogeneity of its member states”
– Peter Sutherland, UN Special Representative

“Creating a single European state bound by one European Constitution is the decisive task of our time.”
- Former German Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer

“Swedes are uninteresting as an ethnic group” and that it is instead the “immigrants that creates the new Sweden.”
- Mattias Karlsson, Outgoing Social Democrat (ruling party) Leader

“With its own army, Europe could react more credibly to the threat to peace in a member state.”
- Jean-Claude Juncker, European President

There are countless more examples of this sort of thing being said by the EU elite. These "leaders" despise their own people and culture and want to see it vanish. New Labour deliberately changed the demographics of this country; Mandelson has admitted to it. It is tinfoil to continue to ignore what is going on in front of your eyes. There is a concerted effort to change the ethnic make up of this country. Visa free access to 75 million Turks will soon hasten that.

Don't know where to begin on this to be honest, where you on funny tablets when you wrote this?

So you say that EU leaders despise their own people, well let's look at the UK in particular. Despite Cameron's pledge in the 2010 election, immigration has raced ahead of where it was when Labour where in power. That's as a consequence of new member states and the existing freedom of movement legislation which comes from the Mastricht treaty in 1992, when yes a Conservative government was in place.

Just because it was Labour policy to encourage immigration, it does not mean it despises it's own people, that is merely your interpretation. When the policy was adopted, we had full employment this was a few years before the financial crisis, Labour wanted the economy to grow even more and whilst it may be a controversial way of going about this, at the time they thought it was the right thing to do. With the exception of a very few, no one predicted the financial crisis and the consequences it would have on our economy. Despite this, we still have a situation where it is proven that migrants add value to our economy.

Why doesn't anyone debate the thousands of British layabouts that have a lifetime on benefits, who aren't prepared to do the jobs immigrants take regardless of the wages on offer, quite often at the lower end of the scale.

[DB10GOONER]

Heard a brilliant interview on Oirish radio the other day. Some lazy no-mark fucker was asked what he thought of our taking in Syrian refugees and he said "They'll steal all the jobs". Journo asked "Are you afraid for your own job?". Urban scum replied; "No, I'm on the scratcher!".



**"Scratcher" is dole/unemployment assistance in Oireland.

[nut flush gooner]

Heard a brilliant interview on Oirish radio the other day. Some lazy no-mark fucker was asked what he thought of our taking in Syrian refugees and he said "They'll steal all the jobs". Journo asked "Are you afraid for your own job?". Urban scum replied; "No, I'm on the scratcher!".



**"Scratcher" is dole/unemployment assistance in Oireland.

Yeah you couldn't make it up really. It's no coincidence that the people that have these prejudices generally don't have any qualifications or skills to get a job.

I met a lass who I didn't know where she was from - very proudly told me how she came to this country not speaking any english, learnt the language and did some financial services qualifications which she completed last year and now holds the title charted financial planner. She earn's an absolute packet, pays a ton in tax and is exactly the sort of articulate person that we should be encouraging to work here. Turns out she was polish and there are loads of professional polish people who work in this country.

[Nos89]

I have voted conservative pretty much all of my adult life, and voted for Boris to be mayor of london.

Quite a funny character, his "bungling idiot" approach is quite endearing. BUT, if he is responsible for us leaving the EU, the loss of thousands of jobs a weaker currency (sterling has fallen through the floor today because of the Boris effect) and he makes it to be the next leader of the Conservatives, I will abstain at the next General Election.

There are arguments for leaving the EU but our relationship with India, China and the US is crucial for the future of this country. If the consequence of leaving the EU is losing investment from all these nations then IMO it just isn't worth it. I have worked for companies that offer services to inward investing overseas firms, and have seen all of these countries set up satellite operations in the UK creating hundreds if not thousands of skilled well paid jobs over the last decade. One US firm alone went from employing 3 employees in 2004 to 200 plus today. That's just my personal experience and it's before you even start looking at large ftse 100 companies who have said they will relocate jobs if we leave the EU.

I was under the impression that our economic relationships with India, China and USA would continue with or without us being in the EU, in fact being out we could improve and have more direct manufacturing contracts with the big 2 and possibly with India. We do not need the EU to have economic trade with the three most important economic countries in the world. Germany appears to be on its way to tanking economically.
I would suggest that the referendum has been brought forward to facilitate a new prime minister. An exit will see boris installed as PM as Cameron steps down, a stay vote will see George Osbourne in charge. I don't think Cameron will see out the full term, he didn't look too motivated during the election and he doesn't appear to want the job anymore. It is no accident that nearly all economic policies set by this government have a timeline to commence in 2020...the year of the next election. Also, as explained by Cameron on the announcement of the referendum, the exit will take 2 years, which gives the current government 2 years to implement a strategy to gain re-election in 2020. If anyone believes they are doing this for the benefit of the everyday people in this nation, think again...it's all about the conservatives staying in power. They've learnt from the error they made with letting Maggie stay in charge for 11 years. A new political party is needed, UKIP had the best manifesto for a modern day Britain, it is unfortunate that they didn't talk about it, just kept banging on about illegal immigrants. If they rebranded themselves by changing their name they would be a major contender for government at the next election.

[nut flush gooner]

I have voted conservative pretty much all of my adult life, and voted for Boris to be mayor of london.

Quite a funny character, his "bungling idiot" approach is quite endearing. BUT, if he is responsible for us leaving the EU, the loss of thousands of jobs a weaker currency (sterling has fallen through the floor today because of the Boris effect) and he makes it to be the next leader of the Conservatives, I will abstain at the next General Election.

There are arguments for leaving the EU but our relationship with India, China and the US is crucial for the future of this country. If the consequence of leaving the EU is losing investment from all these nations then IMO it just isn't worth it. I have worked for companies that offer services to inward investing overseas firms, and have seen all of these countries set up satellite operations in the UK creating hundreds if not thousands of skilled well paid jobs over the last decade. One US firm alone went from employing 3 employees in 2004 to 200 plus today. That's just my personal experience and it's before you even start looking at large ftse 100 companies who have said they will relocate jobs if we leave the EU.

I was under the impression that our economic relationships with India, China and USA would continue with or without us being in the EU, in fact being out we could improve and have more direct manufacturing contracts with the big 2 and possibly with India. We do not need the EU to have economic trade with the three most important economic countries in the world. Germany appears to be on its way to tanking economically.
I would suggest that the referendum has been brought forward to facilitate a new prime minister. An exit will see boris installed as PM as Cameron steps down, a stay vote will see George Osbourne in charge. I don't think Cameron will see out the full term, he didn't look too motivated during the election and he doesn't appear to want the job anymore. It is no accident that nearly all economic policies set by this government have a timeline to commence in 2020...the year of the next election. Also, as explained by Cameron on the announcement of the referendum, the exit will take 2 years, which gives the current government 2 years to implement a strategy to gain re-election in 2020. If anyone believes they are doing this for the benefit of the everyday people in this nation, think again...it's all about the conservatives staying in power. They've learnt from the error they made with letting Maggie stay in charge for 11 years. A new political party is needed, UKIP had the best manifesto for a modern day Britain, it is unfortunate that they didn't talk about it, just kept banging on about illegal immigrants. If they rebranded themselves by changing their name they would be a major contender for government at the next election.

Ok let me explain the issues with your theory. Firstly, Indian and Chinese firms when they want to do business in Europe usually set up a satellite operation for which to sell their wares if you like to the rest of Europe. It's just totally inefficient and expensive to do this in every country.

The country of choice certainly for India given the cultural/language and historical ties is the UK less so for China. You would think that the US would naturally pick the UK as a point of access to do business in Europe, but they have already said the impact us leaving will have. Therefore, its not unreasonable to accept that we will lose out on trading contracts and ultimately jobs that would have been created in the UK.

Now given what I have already said, if we are outside the EU trade will become much more complicated. We have already discussed on this thread the time it takes to set up trade agreements and I am sure that a lot of the EU countries who noses will be put out of joint by Brexit will not be as accommodating as you would think.

UKIP where a shambles in the election, they didn't get the seats they thought they did and their leader stepped down and changed his mind! The one and only MP launched a stinging attack on Farage. Is this really a credible alternative, somehow I don't think so and so did a lot of the Tory vote.

Cameron will be in number 10 after the referendum, what makes you think he is disinterested? He worked his nuts off over getting a deal that he could take to Parliament. The only person whose playing politics is Boris Johnson.

[the playing mantis]

What about costs on infrastructure and house price inflation (nfg probably thinks that's a positive) caused by the unsustainable growth in the levels of migration in the last 20 years? And the costs on the state of those replaced by these migrants who could be doing those same jobs if only employers didn't always want to pay the lowest and the government made meaningful modifications to the skills and education and benefits system.

There are hundreds of similar studies as this and if people are inclined they can probably find ones which support both sides, although I imagine they are net contributors, that's not the point. The debate isn't a purely economic one. That's just part of it. Nfgs is ignoring his and the other points put to him and just banging the same drum, a classic pro europe/unlimited migration tactic. As for the lazy assertion on the NHS that's the same. No one wants to stop all immigration. They want to choose. Filling skills gaps as necessary. Ie overseas nurses and doctors and cleaners if necessary.

No answers.

[the playing mantis]

Coming out will have absolutely no effect on the migrant crisis whatsoever.

Of course it will. Norway isn't comparable its a tiny export market for the eu. We are huge. We can have a say so long as it's not sold down the river as part of trade negotiations.

Also it will stop 75m turks ring able to move here when they join. Can't wait for that.

Why are people doing down the UK as an independent nation. Australia, Canada new Zealand manage ok...

[Nos89]

I have voted conservative pretty much all of my adult life, and voted for Boris to be mayor of london.

Quite a funny character, his "bungling idiot" approach is quite endearing. BUT, if he is responsible for us leaving the EU, the loss of thousands of jobs a weaker currency (sterling has fallen through the floor today because of the Boris effect) and he makes it to be the next leader of the Conservatives, I will abstain at the next General Election.

There are arguments for leaving the EU but our relationship with India, China and the US is crucial for the future of this country. If the consequence of leaving the EU is losing investment from all these nations then IMO it just isn't worth it. I have worked for companies that offer services to inward investing overseas firms, and have seen all of these countries set up satellite operations in the UK creating hundreds if not thousands of skilled well paid jobs over the last decade. One US firm alone went from employing 3 employees in 2004 to 200 plus today. That's just my personal experience and it's before you even start looking at large ftse 100 companies who have said they will relocate jobs if we leave the EU.

I was under the impression that our economic relationships with India, China and USA would continue with or without us being in the EU, in fact being out we could improve and have more direct manufacturing contracts with the big 2 and possibly with India. We do not need the EU to have economic trade with the three most important economic countries in the world. Germany appears to be on its way to tanking economically.
I would suggest that the referendum has been brought forward to facilitate a new prime minister. An exit will see boris installed as PM as Cameron steps down, a stay vote will see George Osbourne in charge. I don't think Cameron will see out the full term, he didn't look too motivated during the election and he doesn't appear to want the job anymore. It is no accident that nearly all economic policies set by this government have a timeline to commence in 2020...the year of the next election. Also, as explained by Cameron on the announcement of the referendum, the exit will take 2 years, which gives the current government 2 years to implement a strategy to gain re-election in 2020. If anyone believes they are doing this for the benefit of the everyday people in this nation, think again...it's all about the conservatives staying in power. They've learnt from the error they made with letting Maggie stay in charge for 11 years. A new political party is needed, UKIP had the best manifesto for a modern day Britain, it is unfortunate that they didn't talk about it, just kept banging on about illegal immigrants. If they rebranded themselves by changing their name they would be a major contender for government at the next election.

Ok let me explain the issues with your theory. Firstly, Indian and Chinese firms when they want to do business in Europe usually set up a satellite operation for which to sell their wares if you like to the rest of Europe. It's just totally inefficient and expensive to do this in every country.

The country of choice certainly for India given the cultural/language and historical ties is the UK less so for China. You would think that the US would naturally pick the UK as a point of access to do business in Europe, but they have already said the impact us leaving will have. Therefore, its not unreasonable to accept that we will lose out on trading contracts and ultimately jobs that would have been created in the UK.

Now given what I have already said, if we are outside the EU trade will become much more complicated. We have already discussed on this thread the time it takes to set up trade agreements and I am sure that a lot of the EU countries who noses will be put out of joint by Brexit will not be as accommodating as you would think.

UKIP where a shambles in the election, they didn't get the seats they thought they did and their leader stepped down and changed his mind! The one and only MP launched a stinging attack on Farage. Is this really a credible alternative, somehow I don't think so and so did a lot of the Tory vote.

Cameron will be in number 10 after the referendum, what makes you think he is disinterested? He worked his nuts off over getting a deal that he could take to Parliament. The only person whose playing politics is Boris Johnson.

China is an economy that is still growing and we've just agreed the biggest deal with China to build a nuclear plant that does not include any other EU member. It certainly wasn't affected by our membership of the EU. Evidence that we can strike trade deals without the EU, and with China.
Banking and Insurance companies are relocating parts of their business to countries like India already, again, no real impact on the EU membership.
We already get our gas/coal and other fuels from south America, the middle east and China again...I have reason to believe that this is independent from the EU.
USA need us in the EU to maintain their world leadership status because China own their debt, and if China called on the US to pay up they are...well, trumped shall we say.
Did you read the UKIP manifesto? As I said they need rebranding and start talking about the detail of the manifesto rather than just immigrants, which as you may have pointed out already, would not change even if we left the EU...
Cameron is working hard for the EU deal, which really isn't what he wanted because he needs a legacy, otherwise his legacy is non-existent...if he loses he has no option but to stand down, if he wins the yes vote then he'll go when the going is good...either way, we'll have a new PM in 2017 that we did not vote for...again.

[Theoperator]

I'm reserving judgement until nearer the time but I'm leaning towards Brexit at the moment.

Judge it in May mate

Out for me. The Common Ag policy and fisheries is a disgrace. Back to our Commonwealth roots so slashed by decades of EU. And honestly any Aussie/ SA N-Z Canadian (other commonwealth countries are available) inhabitant queuing up at the passport foreign list whilst their German mates waltz through in 3 minutes as "EU members" would rightly feel their countrymen gave many of their lives for a very gracious cause

[nut flush gooner]

I have voted conservative pretty much all of my adult life, and voted for Boris to be mayor of london.

Quite a funny character, his "bungling idiot" approach is quite endearing. BUT, if he is responsible for us leaving the EU, the loss of thousands of jobs a weaker currency (sterling has fallen through the floor today because of the Boris effect) and he makes it to be the next leader of the Conservatives, I will abstain at the next General Election.

There are arguments for leaving the EU but our relationship with India, China and the US is crucial for the future of this country. If the consequence of leaving the EU is losing investment from all these nations then IMO it just isn't worth it. I have worked for companies that offer services to inward investing overseas firms, and have seen all of these countries set up satellite operations in the UK creating hundreds if not thousands of skilled well paid jobs over the last decade. One US firm alone went from employing 3 employees in 2004 to 200 plus today. That's just my personal experience and it's before you even start looking at large ftse 100 companies who have said they will relocate jobs if we leave the EU.

I was under the impression that our economic relationships with India, China and USA would continue with or without us being in the EU, in fact being out we could improve and have more direct manufacturing contracts with the big 2 and possibly with India. We do not need the EU to have economic trade with the three most important economic countries in the world. Germany appears to be on its way to tanking economically.
I would suggest that the referendum has been brought forward to facilitate a new prime minister. An exit will see boris installed as PM as Cameron steps down, a stay vote will see George Osbourne in charge. I don't think Cameron will see out the full term, he didn't look too motivated during the election and he doesn't appear to want the job anymore. It is no accident that nearly all economic policies set by this government have a timeline to commence in 2020...the year of the next election. Also, as explained by Cameron on the announcement of the referendum, the exit will take 2 years, which gives the current government 2 years to implement a strategy to gain re-election in 2020. If anyone believes they are doing this for the benefit of the everyday people in this nation, think again...it's all about the conservatives staying in power. They've learnt from the error they made with letting Maggie stay in charge for 11 years. A new political party is needed, UKIP had the best manifesto for a modern day Britain, it is unfortunate that they didn't talk about it, just kept banging on about illegal immigrants. If they rebranded themselves by changing their name they would be a major contender for government at the next election.

Ok let me explain the issues with your theory. Firstly, Indian and Chinese firms when they want to do business in Europe usually set up a satellite operation for which to sell their wares if you like to the rest of Europe. It's just totally inefficient and expensive to do this in every country.

The country of choice certainly for India given the cultural/language and historical ties is the UK less so for China. You would think that the US would naturally pick the UK as a point of access to do business in Europe, but they have already said the impact us leaving will have. Therefore, its not unreasonable to accept that we will lose out on trading contracts and ultimately jobs that would have been created in the UK.

Now given what I have already said, if we are outside the EU trade will become much more complicated. We have already discussed on this thread the time it takes to set up trade agreements and I am sure that a lot of the EU countries who noses will be put out of joint by Brexit will not be as accommodating as you would think.

UKIP where a shambles in the election, they didn't get the seats they thought they did and their leader stepped down and changed his mind! The one and only MP launched a stinging attack on Farage. Is this really a credible alternative, somehow I don't think so and so did a lot of the Tory vote.

Cameron will be in number 10 after the referendum, what makes you think he is disinterested? He worked his nuts off over getting a deal that he could take to Parliament. The only person whose playing politics is Boris Johnson.

China is an economy that is still growing and we've just agreed the biggest deal with China to build a nuclear plant that does not include any other EU member. It certainly wasn't affected by our membership of the EU. Evidence that we can strike trade deals without the EU, and with China.
Banking and Insurance companies are relocating parts of their business to countries like India already, again, no real impact on the EU membership.
We already get our gas/coal and other fuels from south America, the middle east and China again...I have reason to believe that this is independent from the EU.
USA need us in the EU to maintain their world leadership status because China own their debt, and if China called on the US to pay up they are...well, trumped shall we say.
Did you read the UKIP manifesto? As I said they need rebranding and start talking about the detail of the manifesto rather than just immigrants, which as you may have pointed out already, would not change even if we left the EU...
Cameron is working hard for the EU deal, which really isn't what he wanted because he needs a legacy, otherwise his legacy is non-existent...if he loses he has no option but to stand down, if he wins the yes vote then he'll go when the going is good...either way, we'll have a new PM in 2017 that we did not vote for...again.

Where do I start! I really need to learn how to break up paragraphs but here goes ........

Firstly China's economy is under extreme strain, it's stock market has collapsed which in turn has lead to fears of a global downturn. GDP figures (which are a measure of how much an economy is growing) have declined alarmingly over the last couple of years, that coupled with the fact that most economists think that China issue these figures "on the back of a fagpacket" suggest that all is not rosy in China. It's economy is predominantly manufacturing based, but it is anticipated that as is the case with many developed economies the services sector will come to the fore and start to be the driver for future growth. You mention the Nuclear Plant deal with China, well they are contributing building the facility yes but it's an investment not a donation, they will expect a return for their investment.

Where do you get Banking and Insurance companies relocating to places like India???!!!! There certainly was a trend over 10 years ago to set up overseas call centres to outsource basic services (eg bank account enquiries), but most of the more skilled higher paid jobs still remain within the UK. Who in their right mind would take Investment or Pensions advice from someone who they never met in India! I have worked in Financial Services for over 30 years so would like to think I have a reasonable handle on what is going on in this country we employ thousands of people in this sector, not only in the square mile but also in places like Bournemouth and Edinburgh. There is no doubt brexit will cost jobs.


"USA need us in the EU to maintain their world leadership status because China own their debt" really LOL. I have to admit I had to look this up because it was quite a sweeping statement you made there, here are the facts.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/moneymatt ... na-Own.htm

China doesn't own all of the US debt as you have suggested, its nearer 8%. Governments issue debt on the markets in the form of Bonds. Pretty much anyone can buy this debt it works like a loan where you get a nominal rate of interest and a lump sum at the end of a fixed term. The US are considered one of the most credit worthy nations in the world, so I am not surprised the Chinese are looking for a solid investment to give them a decent return. Quite was this has to do with the EU and Brexit is beyond me.

I did read UKIP's manifesto before the general election, then took it to the toilet and have had a sore arse ever since .

[Chippy]

21.03.16

CBI: Brexit could cost 5% of GDP by 2020
The CBI has launched another warning about the implications of a vote to leave the European Union, releasing a study claiming Brexit could cost the UK almost a million jobs by the end of the decade.

The business lobby group asked accountancy firm PwC to model UK growth under different scenarios after Brexit.
The accountancy firm found that annual growth within the EU would be 2.3% to the end of the decade, compared to an average of 1.5% if the UK had a free trade agreement with the EU, or 0.9% if it operated under World Trade Organisation rules.
______________________________________________________________

_____________________________________________________________
The CBI says that could translate to almost 5% of GDP and 950,000 jobs.
“The savings from reduced EU budget contributions and regulation are greatly outweighed by the negative impact on trade and investment,” said CBI director-general Carolyn Fairbairn.
"Even in the best case this would cause a serious shock to the UK economy."
The picture after 2020 shows higher growth under the Brexit scenarios, though not quickly enough to make up for the initial loss forecast.
The free trade agreement would result in growth of 2.7% and the WTO deal 2.6% in the five years to 2025, compared to 2.3% within the EU.
- See more at: https://www.politicshome.com/economy-an ... IywMU.dpuf

Think I'll stick with jobs and a stronger economy. #StrongerIn