THE WENGER THREAD

[the playing mantis]

turricaned, sorry but you clearly are a wum, you are ignoring the hard proven evidence in front of you.

theres no point feeding him chaps hes clealry on the wind up along with the fake laughing gooner, even iceman wasnt so deluded.

2 comments you make turricane amongst the orchestrated litany of tosh you have written:

"convincingly knock LFC out of the FA Cup"

not how i remember it, we were very lucky, and hung on and owed the win to the referee. hardly convincing

"Then we should be having a word with Steve Bould, who was brought in specifically to sort the defence end of things" how do you know this? show me evidence to back up this claim other than your subjective view.

[the playing mantis]

reading the evening standard on the train tonight, seriously hes just on the wind up now isnt he:

for the benefit of those who havent read the paper

"...
“We will try to be better next season than we were this season,” he said. “I think my team have shown remarkable mental stamina and consistency in their attitude and I am very proud of the way they responded. We are looking at some aspects where we can improve internally and we will work very hard during the summer to do that.

“City won a marathon and they turned up in the last 100 yards. But they turned up when it mattered.

“The difference between us and the team who win the League will be down to a maximum of seven points if we win our last game. We have been 128 days on top of the League so we won the stamina league but we failed in some big games away from home.”

Wenger also cast doubt on Arsenal’s ability to conduct any transfer business early this summer — despite attracting heavy criticism for leaving it late in past windows — due to the complications created by the World Cup.

“In my experience in a World Cup year, it has never been done early,” he said. “Nobody will do anything before the World Cup starts.”"

source james olley in the london evening standard

my fave bits are the classic no business will be done before the WC and the new one about stamina.


dont worry we won the fucking STAMINA LEAGUE!!!

christ

[the playing mantis]

VT AND STAMINA LEAGUE CHAMPIONS



theress only one

steveo, can we have another bbq for wining the stamina league? maybe one for quirk of the fixture list league too

[turricaned]

I am pretty sure you have in fact done exactly what you claim the others to have done. You have already placed them neatly into the basket of thinking that wenger is the worst manager in world football.

Nope, I'm just surprised that the responses haven't been more considered - but clearly there's a lot of anger to wade through first.

Theres no excuse for opening up our defense like he did at those heavy defeats this year

As I said, you might want to ask Steve Bould - after all, I'm pretty sure that's why the club (and by extension AW) hired him for the coaching squad.

Like I said perhaps you think that tiny old palace have a better first 11 than the 11 we saw get bent over by the big boys this season

We couldn't field our complete first XI for any of those matches though, could we?

You keep siting injurys as the reason for our heavy defeats? So what you are saying is that our starting 11's and benches at City, Chelsea and Liverpool are worse than, for example, Palace? Injury's do not mean the team go there to roll over and get humbled by the ridiculous scorelines we have seen this season.

It was the number of injuries during the same period (five or six), the quality of the players we lost as a result and the timing of those injuries (i.e. when we were playing the top teams away).

Wenger should have seen the problem of not having the midfield creativity which even a normal fan such as yourself keep harping on about and set up defensively to hit the opponent on the break

I suspect he did, but the problem we had was that in order to do so you need at least one pacey striker to make the run. Ours was injured alongside our offensive midfield players. Poldi was out for a while too, so we were left with Giroud - who can either run pretty well or score on receiving but has trouble making both happen.

Peoples opinions here are based off of the last 10 years of glorious failure

Which may well be ending soon if we get the FA Cup.

For the record, the idea that the stadium move and subsequent costs is an irrelevant excuse is completely wrong-headed in my book. Wikipedia (not noted for being AW partisans ) covers it fairly well in this article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emirates_Stadium

Particularly :

Financing for the project proved difficult as Arsenal was not granted any public subsidy by the government. The club therefore sought other ways to generate income, namely by adopting a policy of buying football players for low transfer fees and selling high, as well as agreeing sponsorship deals.

So the board basically stuck AW with a rigid spending limit for transfers that would last until the stadium costs were either paid off or completely offset by the sponsorship money. This finally happened last year - and wouldn't you know it, it's pretty much exactly 10 years since that limit had been in effect.

The rest of the article is pretty on the money too - I remember a lot of the argy-bargy, because I lived in the area from late 1997 up until Feb this year.

[the playing mantis]

I am pretty sure you have in fact done exactly what you claim the others to have done. You have already placed them neatly into the basket of thinking that wenger is the worst manager in world football.

Nope, I'm just surprised that the responses haven't been more considered - but clearly there's a lot of anger to wade through first.

Theres no excuse for opening up our defense like he did at those heavy defeats this year

As I said, you might want to ask Steve Bould - after all, I'm pretty sure that's why the club (and by extension AW) hired him for the coaching squad.

Like I said perhaps you think that tiny old palace have a better first 11 than the 11 we saw get bent over by the big boys this season

We couldn't field our complete first XI for any of those matches though, could we?

You keep siting injurys as the reason for our heavy defeats? So what you are saying is that our starting 11's and benches at City, Chelsea and Liverpool are worse than, for example, Palace? Injury's do not mean the team go there to roll over and get humbled by the ridiculous scorelines we have seen this season.

It was the number of injuries during the same period (five or six), the quality of the players we lost as a result and the timing of those injuries (i.e. when we were playing the top teams away).

Wenger should have seen the problem of not having the midfield creativity which even a normal fan such as yourself keep harping on about and set up defensively to hit the opponent on the break

I suspect he did, but the problem we had was that in order to do so you need at least one pacey striker to make the run. Ours was injured alongside our offensive midfield players. Poldi was out for a while too, so we were left with Giroud - who can either run pretty well or score on receiving but has trouble making both happen.

Peoples opinions here are based off of the last 10 years of glorious failure

Which may well be ending soon if we get the FA Cup.

For the record, the idea that the stadium move and subsequent costs is an irrelevant excuse is completely wrong-headed in my book. Wikipedia (not noted for being AW partisans ) covers it fairly well in this article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emirates_Stadium

Particularly :

Financing for the project proved difficult as Arsenal was not granted any public subsidy by the government. The club therefore sought other ways to generate income, namely by adopting a policy of buying football players for low transfer fees and selling high, as well as agreeing sponsorship deals.

So the board basically stuck AW with a rigid spending limit for transfers that would last until the stadium costs were either paid off or completely offset by the sponsorship money. This finally happened last year - and wouldn't you know it, it's pretty much exactly 10 years since that limit had been in effect.

The rest of the article is pretty on the money too - I remember a lot of the argy-bargy, because I lived in the area from late 1997 up until Feb this year.

wikipedia as a reliable source...come on must try harder, your giving yourself away now

[hartygooner]

As I said, you might want to ask Steve Bould - after all, I'm pretty sure that's why the club (and by extension AW) hired him for the coaching squad.

That is just pure speculation, how do you know he was hired to take defensive dutys and not just taken on as assistant manager because of the job wenger deemed he had done well with the u18s, reserves or which ever team he was running, I forget sorry. The more likely story is that he wanted and tried to coach defense but wenger disagreed which is why there were many storys of a big falling out over the coaching or lack of.

couldn't field our complete first XI for any of those matches though, could we?

No we couldnt but again, we could have set up like mourinho did when he had at least 5 players out at anfield and played percentages on the break and set up to defend? TACTICS...

It was the number of injuries during the same period (five or six), the quality of the players we lost as a result and the timing of those injuries (i.e. when we were playing the top teams away).

Again, if you dont have the personnel to attack like you keep saying why not set up not to loose and get a point or if lucky on the break all 3? TACTICS again.......

I suspect he did, but the problem we had was that in order to do so you need at least one pacey striker to make the run. Ours was injured alongside our offensive midfield players. Poldi was out for a while too, so we were left with Giroud - who can either run pretty well or score on receiving but has trouble making both happen.

Right or you could have a guy who could hold the ball up and allow a player like OX to run onto him on a break, set up to defend and break, TACTICS again........


So again I ask are you saying that the teams we put out against the big teams away this season are worse than the team that Pulis put out for palace against them? You are blaming injurys for the heavy defeats but IMO the teams we had on those match days were better than the Palace team which picked up points against them all as well as all the other teams that didnt open themselves up to get spanked 5-1 etc. I just dont understand how injurys, even 5 of them make you go out to attack like we did and loose so heavily. It aint pretty but I would be happy if we had drawn 0-0 against the big boys away and won the league rather than getting bum holed.

[turricaned]

Any manager worth their salt will allow for four or five key players being out at once.

In the same position and role? Give me a break! I'll make the point again :

"...take any two of Sturridge, Suarez, Henderson or Gerrard out of the LFC starting XI for a couple of months and they'd have been buggered. Same with Chelsea and Hazard, Eto'o and Lampard."

Do you think those teams could play remotely as well around losing those players for several months?

He is head of medical because he is the head man of the squad.

No, he's manager of the 1st Men's team. That does give him responsibilities in other areas, but he does have to delegate some things!

He can have the best medical team in the world, but he overplays players into injury, over and again.
Cesc, Van Persie, Wilshere, Ramsey - all have looked tired to the casual observer but Wenger has persisted in playing them into the red zone.

RVP's likely to be out the rest of the season with his current crocking, and last I checked, Man U weren't outsourcing their medical setup to the Emirates. Ramsey's injury was possibly down to being overplayed, which AW took responsibility for, but I was under the impression Wilshere broke his foot in the international friendly against Denmark.
Plus how many years has it been since Cesc wore an Arsenal strip in anger? This is old news...

10 years ago.
Based on a defence that knew what to do through it's accumulated experience of training and playing with George Graham's defence.

Parlour and Keown were the only defenders in that year's squad who had been there during the Graham years. A quick check tells me Keown only made 10 league appearances that year. Graham hadn't managed the club for the best part of a decade by that season. Now don't get me wrong - I grew up during the Graham years and remember a lot of it fondly, but it seems to be forgotten that he was fired mid-season for taking bungs and left in disgrace. I'm also old and ugly enough to remember the Wrexham debacle.

Your's is not.
Because no one has ever won anything playing the way you suggest.
On the contrary, we lost heavily to our rival challengers for the title.

Hold up - our theories were about the motivation for not providing pre-match dossiers - not about the relative merits of doing it versus not doing it!

In our great years under Wenger 2002 - 2004, we had improvisation up front, but we had solid defence and well organised central midfield because the players took control of thinks in spite of what their coaching was.

That only holds true if your theory is correct, which it may not be (and neither may mine). And again, Graham was sacked in February 1994. I doubt very much that Aw would have made no changes to the defensive play in that time.

He will be able to cast an eye over the games, and meet families and agents of players who are in the World Cup.

Awesome - something on which we agree! Didn't take that long...

wikipedia as a reliable source...come on must try harder, your giving yourself away now

The source for that paragraph is listed as : Conn, David (2005). The Beautiful Game?: Searching for the Soul of Football. London: Random House. ISBN 1-4464-2042-6.

[Brady's left peg]

Turricaned wrote...

couldn't field our complete first XI for any of those matches though, could we?

Well here is the team that started away to Man shitty 14/12/13 a game which if you have forgotten we lost 6-3.
Arsenal

01 Szczesny Booked
03 Sagna
17 Monreal
20 Flamini (Gnabry - 72' )
04 Mertesacker
06 Koscielny (Vermaelen - 42' )
14 Walcott
16 Ramsey
12 Giroud (Bendtner - 76' )
11 Özil
10 Wilshere

Substitutes

05 Vermaelen
07 Rosicky
08 Arteta
19 Cazorla
21 Fabianski
23 Bendtner
44 Gnabry

Looks pretty fucking strong to me.....
But it doesn't fit in with the... we lost because we had so many injuries narrative.

And here is the line up for the Loserpool away game 08/02/14.

Arsenal

01 Szczesny
03 Sagna
17 Monreal (Gibbs - 61' )
10 Wilshere Booked
04 Mertesacker
06 Koscielny
15 Oxlade-Chamberlain
08 Arteta
12 Giroud Booked (Podolski - 60' )
11 Özil (Rosicky - 61' )
19 Cazorla

Substitutes

07 Rosicky
09 Podolski
21 Fabianski
23 Bendtner
25 Jenkinson
28 Gibbs
44 Gnabry

So lets stop making fucking excuses!
Oh and by the way Wenger has admitted playing Ramsey when he knew full well he was in the fabled red zone, so that was one injury that could of been avoided. But hey you just keep on making those excuses for his mis-management.

[dPmunky]

the injuries excuse is a cop-out, we went to Anfield and were bossed around, 8 days later we flipped the script and beat them. Who came back into the side that made such a drastic impovement that we kept a clean sheet? injuries werent the reason man city walked all over us or why we couldnt muster anything against united, home or away, it's an excuse for poor preperation and execution, and a lousy one at that.

[turricaned]

Well here is the team that started away to Man shitty 14/12/13 a game which if you have forgotten we lost 6-3.

I haven't forgotten - and that wasn't a fixture being talked about as being down to injuries. Some things to bear in mind (I'm just stating for the record - not "making excuses"):

- City have had a stellar record at home this season (in fact it's their home record that's kept them in contention)
- City had an extra day to recover from their previous CL match
- City's starting XI against us contained only 3 of their starting XI against Bayern, ours had 5 of our starting XI against Napoli (including Giroud and Özil)

And here is the line up for the Loserpool away game 08/02/14.

By which time we'd been missing Walcott for over a month, Ramsey was out as well, and Giroud was beginning to look knackered with Özil not far off.

And let's not forget we came back 8 days later and beat them - so it's not like we're incapable of doing so, even with a depleted squad! I seem to recall we beat them 2-0 at home as well.

Oh and by the way Wenger has admitted playing Ramsey when he knew full well he was in the fabled red zone, so that was one injury that could of been avoided.

Er, I said that above!

Ramsey's injury was possibly down to being overplayed, which AW took responsibility for, but I was under the impression Wilshere broke his foot in the international friendly against Denmark.

we went to Anfield and were bossed around, 8 days later we flipped the script and beat them. Who came back into the side that made such a drastic impovement that we kept a clean sheet?

We didn't - the score was 2-1. Who knows, maybe someone might have learned something, y'know, tactically as a result of the previous match?

injuries werent the reason man city walked all over us

Didn't say they were...

or why we couldnt muster anything against united

Winding up RVP before the away match wasn't very clever - Wenger definitely got egg on his face there, but a lot of the fans were on a wind-up too. The home match (coming just after the away defeat to LFC) had AW playing defensively on his own admission - yet I'm told repeatedly that he doesn't do that...

Of course, the problem was that Moyes was playing defensively too as a result of a 2-2 draw against bottom-of-the-table Fulham, so we ended up with both teams too nervous to get stuck into attack.

[officepest]

Turricaned:

If you must post love letters to Wenger could you please not do so in such an irksome manner? It is incredibly tedious having to scroll through every single quote you wish to disagree with.

[dPmunky]

he's got an answer for everything.....ever consider running for office?!

[officepest]

he's got an answer for everything.....ever consider running for office?!

The floor recognises the Senator for Cloud Cuckoo Land.

[turricaned]

TACTICS again........

So let's talk tactics. Mou's basically spent most of this season - particularly against clubs near the top of the table - sitting back defensively and hitting on the counter. If his opponents get thrown by this, he'll push slightly more aggressively - but if they start coming back he'll park the bus as a last resort. Sometimes he'll just park the bus anyway (because he's not as clever as he thinks he is).

Come the Stamford Bridge fixture, he does a 180 and from the start plays a heavy pressing style that has barely been seen all season and we go 2-0 down before we've even realised the game's underway. The following goals weren't so much a result of tactical genius as they were ruthlessly exploiting the fact that our remaining squad was physically knackered, down to 10 men and missing crucial strength in midfield. AW disdains bus parking, but he can play defensively (in fact he did just that against the Spuds the week before) - absolutely it began with a terrible tactical miscalculation, but the scoreline was as much to do with the fact we had no reserve of strength and pace - especially in defence - to draw from.

Our Achilles' heel this season seems to have been that if you can get a couple past us early on, then we get thrown. If we have a decent attack setup, then we can come back - and have done that a few times - but if we don't, then we struggle to find an answer and get disheartened. That's pretty much what happened at the Etihad and Anfield as I see it - with our ability to respond eroded away during the season as injuries started to bite and the remaining players wore themselves out. City did it with relentless direct attack, Liverpool with aggressive pressing on the counter and Chelsea basically a variation of the same. What makes the Chelsea result different is that while you could argue that we should have expected the approach we got from City and Liverpool, Chelsea haven't really unleashed much aggressive pressing play this season - so it's possible that even if AW did in-depth analysis of previous tactics and form, we'd still have been wrong-footed.

So again I ask are you saying that the teams we put out against the big teams away this season are worse than the team that Pulis put out for palace against them?

No - I'm saying that the starting XIs we put up against Liverpool and Chelsea were far from *their* best as a result of injuries to the rest of the squad. The reason I bring the Palace results up is because this supposedly unstoppable "tactical analysis dossier" approach let them down.

...all the other teams that didnt open themselves up to get spanked 5-1 etc.

See above (about the Achilles' heel).

It aint pretty but I would be happy if we had drawn 0-0 against the big boys away and won the league rather than getting bum holed.

All this "bum rape" imagery is getting a bit icky - can we tone it down a bit?

It's not like we can't or don't play defensively - we can and have. What happened in the three matches we're talking about was more like a complete loss of cohesion when badly surprised early on. That's not tactics - that's psychology. The 2-1 FA Cup result against LFC shows that we can learn from mistakes, and do a decent bit of countering ourselves. We're not the only top-4 team this season to have been caught out by an unnecessarily high defensive line either!

[turricaned]

If you must post love letters to Wenger could you please not do so in such an irksome manner?

In my experience, love letters don't include phrases like "egg on [your] face there", or "absolutely it began with a terrible tactical miscalculation".

Maybe if you actually read what I'm saying instead of assuming I'm just a dumb-feck "AKB" then maybe we could get somewhere?