ARE ARSENAL STILL A BIG CLUB?

arseofacrow · Post by **arseofacrow** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:55 pm

Was it said affirmatively? Look mate, don't bullshit with semantics.

And the definition of a big club is complex....as you said, with all due respect, it's a matter of opinion and definition. I guess if you asked people in Europe generally, they'd call Roma a big club...and they'd call Arsenal a big club as well.

Babatunde · Post by **Babatunde** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 5:14 pm

Fair enough. Like I said though, the numbers don't lie. I'd never have expected over 40% of repsondents to affirm Arsenal are not a big club considering people are making it out to be such a cut and dired issue i.e. Arsenal are full-stop!

Over 40% of Arsenal fans seem to disagree....

And still no one has addressed the Wenger comment about Arsenal no longer being a big club post Cesc and Nasri? Everyone is avoiding that one for some reason!

arseofacrow · Post by **arseofacrow** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 5:23 pm

Babatunde wrote:Fair enough. Like I said though, the numbers don't lie. I'd never have expected over 40% of repsondents to affirm Arsenal are not a big club considering people are making it out to be such a cut and dired issue i.e. Arsenal are full-stop!

Over 40% of Arsenal fans seem to disagree....

And still no one has addressed the Wenger comment about Arsenal no longer being a big club post Cesc and Nasri? Everyone is avoiding that one for some reason!

The numbers mate are also complex - as has been mentioned, Forest have 2 European Cups...now, if you were to use a mathematical formula, you would surely have to weight these numbers - they can't just count as 2 trophies. Complex.

And Wenger's comment. A statement to the board? His own arrogance and real belief that both of them wouldn't leave? WHo knows? I guess he genuinely believed that he'd never have to let Nasri leave this pre-season. thsi was misguided from the start for so many reasons, and only highlights the head in the sand mentality of Wenger, and the small club mentality of the board.

Post by **QuartzGooner** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 5:26 pm

Babatunde wrote: And still no one has addressed the Wenger comment about Arsenal no longer being a big club post Cesc and Nasri? Everyone is avoiding that one for some reason!

I addressed it.

I said that Wenger has been talking "PR speak" for the last few years, and I treat whatever he says with a pile of salt.

Does not mean that everything he says is a total lie, but I treat his public remarks with a healthy dose of scepticism.

His statement on us being a big club carries no more weight than countless "I did not see it" replies to when questioned on one of our players who has committed a foul on the pitch.

Post by **DB10GOONER** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 6:52 am

QuartzGooner wrote:
Babatunde wrote: And still no one has addressed the Wenger comment about Arsenal no longer being a big club post Cesc and Nasri? Everyone is avoiding that one for some reason!

I addressed it.

I said that Wenger has been talking "PR speak" for the last few years, and I treat whatever he says with a pile of salt.

Does not mean that everything he says is a total lie, but I treat his public remarks with a healthy dose of scepticism.

His statement on us being a big club carries no more weight than countless "I did not see it" replies to when questioned on one of our players who has committed a foul on the pitch.

It was addressed by nearly everyone on here at the time too in fairness.

Babatunde - your posting style is reminding me more and more of OCDMarty every day. You twist facts and peoples words to suit your argument but ignore other things they've written when it suits you too. I've checked your IP and I know you are not OCDMarty but it is just really weird that your posting style is so similar.

I guess what I'm trying to say is we just got rid of one fucking pain in the arse (steady Jay, steady...

) and I'm hoping you are not going to become the next pain in the arse on here.

Post by **flash gunner** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 6:54 am

Their posting styles are so similar

SteveO 35 · Post by **SteveO 35** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 7:55 am

I've listened to these sort of debates so many times and the conclusions are never meaningful; its similar to comparing a goalkeeper with a striker and asking "who's the better player" ?

There's no official definition of a 'big club', so it can be justified either way.

If fan base, historic domestic success, stadium and facilities, wage bill etc are your criteria then the answer is still certainly 'yes'. Ask the players of Aldershot who they would like to play in the next round of the Carling Cup or any of the minnows left in the FA Cup 3rd Round, and chances are we'll be mentioned as the 'dream away day' along with United and Liverpool (less so Chelsea). So if you've grown up as a footballer or fan in this country for the last few decades then you'll almost certainly still see Arsenal as a big club, regardless of the last six years.

In Europe it's a tougher question. We are certainly not an elite club. If you took a poll of 1,000 football fans from the major nations in Europe and asked them who the big clubs were I'm pretty sure Barca, Real Madrid and Man United would be the runaway top 3. Beyond that Bayern, Juventus, AC Milan, Liverpool (how that hurts) would all probably be mentioned ahead of us. But we'd certainly feature somewhere between 10 and 20 on most people's lists. Given that there are thousands of clubs in Europe, I'd say being in the top 20 makes you a big club, even if the criteria can be argued upon, as at the end of the day it's about humble opinion.

I think it takes decades of decline to erode a big club status. Juventus were relegated a few years back but I don't think that stopped them being a big club. Given their history and fanbase I would say that Celtic and Ajax are big clubs but they are hardly tearing up trees in Europe these days.

Difficult to argue, but I would say on balance that we are still a big club in the eyes of the majority - whatever that actually means !

safcftm · Post by **safcftm** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:11 am

Babatunde wrote:
arseofacrow wrote:
Babatunde wrote:
arseofacrow wrote:
skipper wrote: Name a BIG European club that haven't won Champions League?
Roma?
Roma are not a big club. Never have been.
Until Capello won them that league they'd done sod all for over 17 years. And prior to that they'd done sod all again. They had one very good spell in the early 80s but sorry mate they ain't a big club!
No offence mate, but I won't take your word as gospel.

Newcastle have more value in their squad than ours

Was it said affirmatively though?

And also, can you actually refute my point that Roma are not a big club?
I suspect you can't mate. How can a club with just 3 Serie A titles be called a big club! They also don't have a single official European title. Big club? Please mate....with all due respect....

And Sunderland man I disagree on Lazio, Atletico, and Valencia being big clubs. No chance in hell are any of those big clubs. Atletico were relegated under Jesus Gil!!!! Valencia is close, they have a few titles but again, how many people would mention them as big clubs when asked?
Lazio??? They have just Two Serie A titles in their history and have won just two major trophies in the past 35 years.
Course you're more than entitled to your view mate, just don't agree with it....

When I say Big Club I mean ManYoo, I mean Bayern, I mean Inter, I mean AC Milan, I mean Barca, I mean Real, I mean AC Milan....

I'd say over the past ten years if you look at trophies etc, there is a Devil's advocate case to say that Chelsi can now possibly be considered a bigger club than Arsenal. Like I said: devil's advocate case here....

The thing is though, you're saying that clubs arent "big", but this will always be a bullshit argument since there is no defined criteria for a club being big. For me, big clubs domestically include the likes of sunderland, leeds, newcastle, forest etc although to other people at least some of these shouldnt be in the list. When thinking of big european teams i dont discount teams who havent won tournaments, instead i tend to think massive clubs from their own countries that often feature in europe can be big. The support for the likes of Roma, coupled with their very regular appearances in the CL, added to the fact that pretty much everyone, even people who dont like football, have heard the name Roma leads me to think of them as a big european side. Again though, you must have different criteria, which is fine since there is no set criteria but it makes discussion of it a little bit pointless

I also have to take issue with you saying Valencia are "nearly" big enough to be considered but not Atletico Madrid because they got relegated recently. Atletico have won the top spanish league 9 times, they've won the Spanish equivilant of the FA Cup 9 times, they've won the europa league, been runners up in the european cup, won the cup winners cup but they dont count as "big" because theyve recently suffered relegation? So what, their long and illustrious history counts for nothing does it, just because of a relegation? Sorry, but that just sounds like Sky boy reasoning.

Valencia havent won as much over the years as Atletico. Both big clubs imo, but Atletico are the bigger club.

Oh, and skipper, I agree, Chelsea arent really a big club tbh, I just added them in there to further illustrate that even some clubs the sky boys see as being big havent won the CL! For me a big club has to have a long tradition and history, with a good number of titles (either league or cup) and a good fan base. To be a big european club you need to have all of the above but with a pedigree of performing regularly in europe. Hence Sunderland are a big English club (large support, 6 league titles, 2 cup titles, first league title in the 1800s meaning a long pedigree, but we've hardly ever played in europe (only because there was no CL when we were mint early 1900s like but still). Arsenal on the other hand are a big English club but they have also frequently played in europe, and obviously are a main stay of the latter stages of europes top competition, i think that qualifies them as a massive english club and a big european one. If you supported some greek side and you drew arsenal, youd be saying "fucking hell, thats a big club to get". Quite amazed how many gooners seem to be suggesting that AFC are no longer "big", whether in european terms or otherwise

kiwomya · Post by **kiwomya** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:40 am

We also get selected for Pot 1 of the Champions League draw because of our consistency in Europe. You can rip our "nearly" knock outs most years but you can't deny we are there every single year. Even Madrid have been getting knocked out before us (and by us!) in recent years.

Henry Norris 1913 · Post by **Henry Norris 1913** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:03 am

of course Roma are a big club, they're one of the most passionately supported clubs in world football and arguably play in the second biggest derby in the world . not to mention they are the biggest club from one of the most culturally important cities in europe .

When I say Big Club I mean ManYoo, I mean Bayern, I mean Inter, I mean AC Milan, I mean Barca, I mean Real, I mean AC Milan....

you've just made a thread asking us a subjective question and when people gave you they're opinion you've just said "nope- this is the answer". plus you've not made a single post that was supporting the team or club. you have much in common with USM

safcftm · Post by **safcftm** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:13 am

Henry Norris 1913 wrote:of course Roma are a big club, they're one of the most passionately supported clubs in world football and arguably play in the second biggest derby in the world . not to mention they are the biggest club from one of the most culturally important cities in europe .
When I say Big Club I mean ManYoo, I mean Bayern, I mean Inter, I mean AC Milan, I mean Barca, I mean Real, I mean AC Milan....
you've just made a thread asking us a subjective question and when people gave you they're opinion you've just said "nope- this is the answer". plus you've not made a single post that was supporting the team or club. you have much in common with USM

Spot on. I wouldnt say Arsenal or Roma are massive clubs in a European sense- as mentioned, the Super Clubs are the likes of Barca, Real, Man United etc, but Arsenal (and Roma) are big european clubs by almost any definition of the term, not super clubs, they dont win CL after CL, but not having won the competition doesnt mean they are in any way minnows as seems to be almost being suggested!

Babatunde · Post by **Babatunde** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:23 am

DB10GOONER wrote:
QuartzGooner wrote:
Babatunde wrote: And still no one has addressed the Wenger comment about Arsenal no longer being a big club post Cesc and Nasri? Everyone is avoiding that one for some reason!

I addressed it.

I said that Wenger has been talking "PR speak" for the last few years, and I treat whatever he says with a pile of salt.

Does not mean that everything he says is a total lie, but I treat his public remarks with a healthy dose of scepticism.

His statement on us being a big club carries no more weight than countless "I did not see it" replies to when questioned on one of our players who has committed a foul on the pitch.
It was addressed by nearly everyone on here at the time too in fairness.

Babatunde - your posting style is reminding me more and more of OCDMarty every day. You twist facts and peoples words to suit your argument but ignore other things they've written when it suits you too. I've checked your IP and I know you are not OCDMarty but it is just really weird that your posting style is so similar.

I guess what I'm trying to say is we just got rid of one fucking pain in the arse (steady Jay, steady... ) and I'm hoping you are not going to become the next pain in the arse on here.

Sorry mate but that's bollox and I won't accept that.
I never twisted a single fact. If I said no one has addressed it and they actually did - then I'll accept I am wrong. Unlike USM I never call anyone a liar and a coward for having a different opinion.

I have always said ppl are entitled to their opinion, and I never slate anyone for having one. If you actually take the time to read through some posts, you will denote that I have often asked a very simple question that has lead to Precious vitriolic responses. Augie even noticed it, as did a couple of others mate.

Some people don't like any kind of question that contravenes their slt Ianted image of Arsenal and fair enough. But no, I do not accept that I begin to insult if someone has an opinion I do not like. Whose facts did I twist? Please show me and unlike USM I'll apologize for it.

Fact is though, QuartzGooner has disagreed with me and I never called him a coward for it. He makes some good points. I'll never slate someone who uses a good factual argument to refute what I said. Someone called me out on my Newcastle squad comparison and I held my hand up and said I got that one wrong.

Of course though, perhaps it's better to not ask the questions I am asking. Perhaps I should just toe the line then and not debate anything. Like I said, I am not abusive to anyone, I just disagree with a lot of what they say. If that's what annoys you mate (and I have not 'twised people's facts, I have argued against their point of view) then perhaps an Idi Mani-style media purge is required and I will self-censor and never again dispute sthg I disagree with.

Sorry mate but I think it's proper far-fetched for you to compare me to that nob. Or shall I point you to some of the responses a simple polling question received?

Babatunde · Post by **Babatunde** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:25 am

safcftm wrote:
Henry Norris 1913 wrote:of course Roma are a big club, they're one of the most passionately supported clubs in world football and arguably play in the second biggest derby in the world . not to mention they are the biggest club from one of the most culturally important cities in europe .
When I say Big Club I mean ManYoo, I mean Bayern, I mean Inter, I mean AC Milan, I mean Barca, I mean Real, I mean AC Milan....
you've just made a thread asking us a subjective question and when people gave you they're opinion you've just said "nope- this is the answer". plus you've not made a single post that was supporting the team or club. you have much in common with USM
Spot on. I wouldnt say Arsenal or Roma are massive clubs in a European sense- as mentioned, the Super Clubs are the likes of Barca, Real, Man United etc, but Arsenal (and Roma) are big european clubs by almost any definition of the term, not super clubs, they dont win CL after CL, but not having won the competition doesnt mean they are in any way minnows as seems to be almost being suggested!

Mate I don't think Roma are minnows. Never said that. I just think they are not a proper big club. I see them like I see Spuds really, just my view...

Think StevieO is probably very bang on with his assessment though...

Babatunde · Post by **Babatunde** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:26 am

SteveO 35 wrote:I've listened to these sort of debates so many times and the conclusions are never meaningful; its similar to comparing a goalkeeper with a striker and asking "who's the better player" ?

There's no official definition of a 'big club', so it can be justified either way.

If fan base, historic domestic success, stadium and facilities, wage bill etc are your criteria then the answer is still certainly 'yes'. Ask the players of Aldershot who they would like to play in the next round of the Carling Cup or any of the minnows left in the FA Cup 3rd Round, and chances are we'll be mentioned as the 'dream away day' along with United and Liverpool (less so Chelsea). So if you've grown up as a footballer or fan in this country for the last few decades then you'll almost certainly still see Arsenal as a big club, regardless of the last six years.

In Europe it's a tougher question. We are certainly not an elite club. If you took a poll of 1,000 football fans from the major nations in Europe and asked them who the big clubs were I'm pretty sure Barca, Real Madrid and Man United would be the runaway top 3. Beyond that Bayern, Juventus, AC Milan, Liverpool (how that hurts) would all probably be mentioned ahead of us. But we'd certainly feature somewhere between 10 and 20 on most people's lists. Given that there are thousands of clubs in Europe, I'd say being in the top 20 makes you a big club, even if the criteria can be argued upon, as at the end of the day it's about humble opinion.

I think it takes decades of decline to erode a big club status. Juventus were relegated a few years back but I don't think that stopped them being a big club. Given their history and fanbase I would say that Celtic and Ajax are big clubs but they are hardly tearing up trees in Europe these days.

Difficult to argue, but I would say on balance that we are still a big club in the eyes of the majority - whatever that actually means !

Top post. Agree with that. You also managed to disagree with me without wailing like a spoilt brat. Excellent.

rigsby · Post by **rigsby** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:09 am

Quite amazed how many gooners seem to be suggesting that AFC are no longer "big", whether in european terms or otherwise

People like to moan.You are spot on with everything you've said. How anyone, let alone Arsenal fans, even question to size of a club is ridiculous. They all seem to be grabbing at straws to try and prove a point that isn't relevant at all.

And so what if Wenger said that? Is his word gospel? There was an Arsenal before and there will be an Arsenal after him.

ARE ARSENAL STILL A BIG CLUB?

Are Arsenal FC Still a Big Club?