As we're unlikely to see terraces again at football, this is the virtual equivalent where you can chat to your hearts content about all football matters and, obviously, Arsenal in particular. This forum encourages all Gooners to visit and contribute so please keep it respectful, clean and topical.
SPUDMASHER wrote:I'm not going to defend Wenger but I am willing to criticise some of our fan base for their expectations. Some of what I read on here is just unreasonable at times.
In what aspects spuddy ? He is being (in my opinion at least) correctly slaughtered for his lack of tactical nous, for the blatant disregard in the way he prepares for opposition teams, for the ridiculous contracts handed out to average players, for his inability to motivate his players, for his absolute refusal to spend the resources he has available, for his woeful inability to recognise and change our shortcomings, for the disgraceful contempt/disregard he has shown to the fans and finally for watering down the ambitions of our club to the point that a virtual trophy is the be all and end all these days
Not sure where our expectations are unreasonable tbh spuddy
I think that we got proper spoiled ten years ago and some of our supporters now think that is a continually achievable target. That just isn't realistic.
It's an interesting point. I remember saying at the time that the 98, 02 and 04 teams were punching above their weight, not in terms of how good they were, but in terms of Arsenal as a club. For that period we were blessed with incredible quality, and I think you are right, it raised expectations that have since become unrealistic, and it reflects itself in the criticism of the manager.
That said, a lot of the criticism towards him his justified. I dont consider myself to be an 'AKB' or 'AOB' and in fact I detest the terms, they are lazy labels that get applied to people based on their view of a particular issue.
However
The ineptness of the tactics for a number of seasons is frustrating to say the least, the arrogance of not having a plan or approach dependent on the opposition is shocking really. The 02 and 04 teams in particular were good enough, certainly in English football, to send out and be told to just play how they knew best, footballs moved on since then but Arsene hasn't.
The inability to address issues in the squad which are obvious for everyone to see is appalling management. The almost myopic approach to the squad is shocking, and its rinse and repeat every transfer window, here we are again with the shackals of the stadium debt apparently no longer upon on, and with three days of the window left, still need to address the entire spine of the team - It's simply not good enough.
To your original point though, the expectations of our fans now do lend themselves to seeing and hearing some of the ridiculous things that now get said (Debuchy is a **** for getting sent off, lets hope the manager dies in a plance crash)
and it doesnt make pleasant reading really.
I agree but I do think that our not having signed a couple of the named players yet is due to having to assure CL participation. Unfortunately it may not happen at all but I remain optimistic that something will. The comments you refer to in your last paragrah also piss me off.I don't think they are necessary and show the poster in a bad light.
As a club we operate entirely from within our own revenues. That cannot be said of Manure, Chavs, Scousers or Citeh. Now on a one to one basis we haven't competed with them for a while but over the course of a season we stay up there punching above our weight year after year. If we were in a position to throw money around like they have I am confident that we would have bought much better than they have. We proved that we can do that 10 years ago when the playing field was far more level. How some of our fans think that we should be brushing these teams aside whilst spending a fraction of what they do is beyond me. It just isn't realistic. Given the constraints we have worked under, and that we operate as a profit making business not a money sponge, I think we've done okay.
I get equally as frustrated with what I see as inept decision making and a lack of tactical intelligence at times from the manager but I don't want him to die in a plane crash etc. I'm above that level of childish nonsense.
People on here joking about putting him on a plane over Ukraine....seriously WTF?
This is a man who has won Arsenal 8 major trophies and delivered CL football for 17th year in a row whilst playing good football.
Here is a question for all the Wenger out brigade - who would you bring in that would do a better job? And be realistic, Pep Guardiola is not going to swap Bayern Munich for us.
fivetothree wrote:People on here joking about putting him on a plane over Ukraine....seriously WTF?
This is a man who has won Arsenal 8 major trophies and delivered CL football for 17th year in a row whilst playing good football.
Here is a question for all the Wenger out brigade - who would you bring in that would do a better job? And be realistic, Pep Guardiola is not going to swap Bayern Munich for us.
You don't think that question's been asked and answered a thousand times before.
Let's get off the plane thing and back to the topic.
Spuddy - I get and agree in the most part but "punching above our weight" I would have to question. In respect of funds, and who we're competing against (for top 4) can we really say that?
fivetothree wrote:I'm not trawling through past posts - I cannot think of anyone at the moment who would improve us.
Klopp? Staying at Dortmund
Martinez? At Everton for forseeable and still unproven at top level
I am struggling to think of any others...
probably mate because you don't know other...like you didn't know Wenger.
Like amazonian tribes, cos we don't of them doesn't mean they don't exist. That's someone else's job. All we can do is try and hold the manager accountable.
A worse manager I cannot think of- watched him spunk away chance after chance for 5 years at my local team despite lots of money coming his and the teams way.
Tactics werent there
Kept finishing in the same place annually.
What moron would keep someone like him on...
arseofacrow wrote:Let's get off the plane thing and back to the topic.
Spuddy - I get and agree in the most part but "punching above our weight" I would have to question. In respect of funds, and who we're competing against (for top 4) can we really say that?
Financially without doubt.
We operate solely within revenues generated by our business. Citeh, Chavs, Manure, Liverpool have all received massive injections of cash from outside their own revenues. Even today they circumvent these rules by their parent company sponsoring them for ridiculous amounts of money. Our stadium is probably the best club owned football stadium within the UK and yet the sponsorship for it, even after deals have been re-negotiated, are a mere fraction of that for Eastlands.
Given what we are up against I think we do extraordinarily well. Especially when you see the cash that Tottenham have spunked away from their benefactor.
I'm prepared to criticise our manager and the club, I have no quarms about doing so, but I do think that we should all start to get a little perspective.
We have done incredibly well to finance our own stadium whilst remaining competitive on the pitch. Wenger was hamstrung financially from 2006-2012. The next few days will give an indication of our ambition.
fivetothree wrote:I couldnt agree more with you Spudmasher.
We have done incredibly well to finance our own stadium whilst remaining competitive on the pitch. Wenger was hamstrung financially from 2006-2012. The next few days will give an indication of our ambition.
So the financial restrictions are the reason why our tactics are from year sword and leather helmet? Or the beatings we've got last season?
It's same old same old to say that coming days or weeks or months will be an indication of our ambition. We've all heard that every year for the past years. The days of wishing and believing are now over and it's time for some results. Getting fourth or into CL isn't enough.
arseofacrow wrote:Let's get off the plane thing and back to the topic.
Spuddy - I get and agree in the most part but "punching above our weight" I would have to question. In respect of funds, and who we're competing against (for top 4) can we really say that?
Financially without doubt.
We operate solely within revenues generated by our business. Citeh, Chavs, Manure, Liverpool have all received massive injections of cash from outside their own revenues. Even today they circumvent these rules by their parent company sponsoring them for ridiculous amounts of money. Our stadium is probably the best club owned football stadium within the UK and yet the sponsorship for it, even after deals have been re-negotiated, are a mere fraction of that for Eastlands.
Given what we are up against I think we do extraordinarily well. Especially when you see the cash that Tottenham have spunked away from their benefactor.
I'm prepared to criticise our manager and the club, I have no quarms about doing so, but I do think that we should all start to get a little perspective.
But even had Tottenham had a consistently significantly lower wage bill than us for the time when they were trying to get fourth. And we had the 3rd or 4th highest for almost all of the post Highbury time.
I think if financials are the argument then we did what was expected - If we can't compete for the title with City, Chelsea, Man Utd (and we didn't, not in a real way), then it hard to expect Everton, etc to overhaul us for third/fourth. I think that's perspective.
We are self-sustainable but I'm not sure I'm really proud of that anymore, knowing that it's the fans paying off the mortgage for someone else eventually to sell off the house, while ignoring much need renovation for years.
fivetothree wrote:I couldnt agree more with you Spudmasher.
We have done incredibly well to finance our own stadium whilst remaining competitive on the pitch. Wenger was hamstrung financially from 2006-2012. The next few days will give an indication of our ambition.
Not financialy restricted enough to stop us offering massive contracts to:
Almunia
Diaby
Rosciky
Eboue
Denilson
Bendtner
And thereafter selling our best players every year.
The financial restrictions have been looked at and in part debunked. Go to an expert - Swiss ramble.
