What needs to happen to prove Wenger right?

As we're unlikely to see terraces again at football, this is the virtual equivalent where you can chat to your hearts content about all football matters and, obviously, Arsenal in particular. This forum encourages all Gooners to visit and contribute so please keep it respectful, clean and topical.
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mrgnu1958
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Post by mrgnu1958 »

i couldnt have said it clearer mesell :shock:

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QuartzGooner
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Post by QuartzGooner »

@USMartin

I do not need proof.
We can all see the cash is there.

But if you honestly think the board have stopped Wenger spending it, in order to raise the share price, then you will NEVER PROVE IT.

Such an order would not be in writing.

You are just wasting your time.

mrgnu1958
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Post by mrgnu1958 »

i totally agree quartzy

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USMartin
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Post by USMartin »

Deise Gooner wrote:Martin, Quartz sums it up perfectly. it has been repeatadly said by Gazidis, Wenger and other that there is money there to be spent if Wenger wants to spend it. There is no big conspiracy here that the board are withholding any information about anything to do with the clubs accounts. Its a sad fact that we cant compete with the other teams and spend 30-50 million on a player but thats how the club has always been run and certainly not just a new mind frame post 2005. We have never gone out and spent big bucks.
First off here you go saying its all about spending up to 50 miillion on players. No one thinks that at this point at all, and I challange you to show where anyone who has questioned our spending policy has suggested that.

It's sad that you can't argue the real issues which is how this totally ass-backwards wage structure benefits the football club when all it does it discourage signing players on higher wages even if their transfer fees are 30 million and down to 20 million or lower, and how making five million pounds a yeer in the transfer market is the only workable alternative to trying to spend like Chelsea or Man City and there is simply no middle ground or alternative option available to us.

Like say spending 5 million a year which is all we spent from 1997-2005 exactly ten million a year more than we have since 2006 - a mere ten million. After spending 5 million a year won the Premiership three times, a top-two finish eight times, foru FA Cups, two Doubles, and of course the 2004 Invincibles (though the 2002 side was a better side).

The simple truth is no one is calling for radical change just more of the same as from 1998-2005. Why can't you just argue against that if its wrong istead of tryiong to insist we want Arsenal to spend like Man City or don't care if they risjk ending up like Leeds or that the only way to compete is overpaying underperformers and underpaying genuine stars - which is the opposite of what we did from 1998-2005. And again we did okay for ourselves those years.

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USMartin
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Post by USMartin »

QuartzGooner wrote:@USMartin

I do not need proof.
We can all see the cash is there.

But if you honestly think the board have stopped Wenger spending it, in order to raise the share price, then you will NEVER PROVE IT.

Such an order would not be in writing.

You are just wasting your time.
So what you are saying is its not true unless its in writing - except if the Board say its true. How nice, how objective an analysis of truth and facts.

You don't like it - well you said it, I didn't make you say it or post it.

And apparently as long as you don't see that proof you don't even care if its true or waht it does to Arsenal. Again you said as much above and I will stand by that.

You have insisted you want proof to justify questioning the Board now you state categorically because you believe written proof is the only real proof out there that nothing else no matter how true or accurate matters to you.

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Deise Gooner
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Post by Deise Gooner »

Martin football has changed a lot even in the past 5 years. I never said that i wanted us to go and splash the cash on a 30 million player but thats how football is going because the market is dictated by the big spenders they are pushing up prices and thats fact. This weekend proved that beyond any doubt. Chelsea basically said to Liverpool name your price and they did. Newcastle knowing that Liverpool had all that money could once again inflate the fee. The fact that Caroll demanded a higher transfer fee than David Villa just shows how daft the transfer market is. Do i want Wenger to go out and spend that kind of money, no way but he can clearly spend money that is there to improve the squad and it is entirely his choice not the boards because as he has said on numerous occasions he is looking for "value"and there is increasingly less and less value in the market.

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QuartzGooner
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Post by QuartzGooner »

@USMartin

Even if it was true that the board were stopping Wenger spending they would not have written down that instruction.
They would have told him verbally to avoid a paper trail.

You therefore cannot prove it. EVER.

Only one of them making a public statement that they were holding onto cash can provide a hint of evidence, and that is very unlikely they would do that.

But I do not believe they are holding onto cash anyway.

Please take your concerns to The Swiss Rambler, a serious financial football website.

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USMartin
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Post by USMartin »

QuartzGooner wrote:@USMartin

I do not need proof.
We can all see the cash is there.

But if you honestly think the board have stopped Wenger spending it, in order to raise the share price, then you will NEVER PROVE IT.

Such an order would not be in writing.

You are just wasting your time.
So what you are saying is its not true unless its in writing - except if the Board say its true. How nice, how objective an analysis of truth and facts.

You don't like it - well you said it, I didn't make you say it or post it.

And apparently as long as you don't see that proof you don't even care if its true or waht it does to Arsenal. Again you said as much above and I will stand by that.

You have insisted you want proof to justify questioning the Board now you state categorically because you believe written proof is the only real proof out there that nothing else no matter how true or accurate matters to you.

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USMartin
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Post by USMartin »

QuartzGooner wrote: @USMartin

Even if it was true that the board were stopping Wenger spending they would not have written down that instruction.
They would have told him verbally to avoid a paper trail.

You therefore cannot prove it. EVER.

Let's see even if there is serious proof of the Board conducting its financial policies in the way evidence - real evidence not just somebody saying something I am conditioned to want to believe no matter the how consistent it may or my not be with the facts - suggests unless you see a paper like this that evidence is irrelevant and you trust the Board. Now nice and objective you are about what may or may not be true. Indeed you have stated above the truth does not matter because you will only accept written evidence of it aand ignore anything else.
Only one of them making a public statement that they were holding onto cash can provide a hint of evidence, and that is very unlikely they would do that.

So since the truth does not matter to you no I can never prove it to you - if in fact the truth is what I am concerned it may be, and I can acknowedge I may be wrong

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USMartin
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Post by USMartin »

QuartzGooner wrote:But I do not believe they are holding onto cash anyway.
And here is the proof the truth does not matter to you if you earlier statement did not already confirm that - what objective evidence do you have to back this conclusion facts not simply quotes from the Board you automatiocally want and choose to believe because since they are Arsenal Baord they are individuals of impeccable and unimpeachable hoonor and decency on all occasions, and protecting their honor is frankly more important to you than any damage their policies and any dishonesty about them might cause to the football team. They - and their honor and virtue - are in fact Bigger then the Club in your view, and they do not need to prove what they are saying is true - they said it and thus it must be true and you couldn't face the possibility they were not telling the truth and your faith in them was mis-guided.

You don't like it - too bad - what you said there is and have said before are utterly in line with. You must have a written piece of paper or direct staement from Board members or no other evidence no matter hopw compelling matters to you but accept their word without question even when they ioffer no real proof behind it. That is in fact what you stated.

Edit - I take back the too bad bit - it comes off more personally than I meant it. But I have not one jot of concern if you take exception to how you are portrayed because it is based on your own words. and anyone who objectively reads them even if they agree with your view would agree that what I have written accurately reflects what you said.
Last edited by USMartin on Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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USMartin
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Post by USMartin »

Deise Gooner wrote:Martin football has changed a lot even in the past 5 years. I never said that i wanted us to go and splash the cash on a 30 million player but thats how football is going because the market is dictated by the big spenders they are pushing up prices and thats fact. This weekend proved that beyond any doubt. Chelsea basically said to Liverpool name your price and they did. Newcastle knowing that Liverpool had all that money could once again inflate the fee. The fact that Caroll demanded a higher transfer fee than David Villa just shows how daft the transfer market is. Do i want Wenger to go out and spend that kind of money, no way but he can clearly spend money that is there to improve the squad and it is entirely his choice not the boards because as he has said on numerous occasions he is looking for "value"and there is increasingly less and less value in the market.
First off I didn't say you said that's what you wanted I said that is what you were arguing I and others questioning our policies want and that its all we want which is not true.

I think that the market is skewed by the big-spending clubs but not the extent you suggest. If it were football is well and truly screwed as it will only become an even less competitive game and the financial faierplay rules will do little to change that.

As to your last point when hasn't Arsene Wenegr lloked for value - even from 1998-2005 we didn't outspend Man United Chelsea or Liverpool - or at times Newcaslte or even Leeds United. And if Arsene Wenger were purely pursuing his own brief why hasn't the Board if not sacked him than made a serious inquiry about this - and trust me if that happened we would know aboout that because someone would have leaked it at least if not gone and openly reported it to the media.

And let's go beyond that - if this was some ego- or even principle-driven policy of his conception how come we never in fact saw it until after the loan for the Highbury redevelopment overstretched our finances? I mean a man of such strong principles or such ego-driven stubborness couldn't work against that for almost a whole decade could they?

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USMartin
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Post by USMartin »

mrgnu1958 wrote:i totally agree quartzy
And I was gonna say your new avatar is sharp ..... rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

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highburyJD
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Post by highburyJD »

USMartin wrote:The cash is there but you have not one sliver of evidence that it is genuinely available to the manager other than the Board's word.
Martin I share some of your concern's
but what evidence could there be except their word...?

my opinion is that Wenger and the board think it's financially prudent to pay down debt now. Probably we have sailed closer to the wind debtwise than they would like to admit - some of our undisclosed debt agreements could demand we hold a certain amount of capital for all I know.

The reality is Wenger is stubborn - lot's on here see it as an unforgiveable weakness. It can be a weakness - his insistence on playing tomorrows games today often rejects the chance of the quick fix experienced signings. Whilst allowing players to gain experience you risk losing games. The glaring error of that sort was dropping Arshavin v Chelski in the cup IMO because he wanted the team to believe they could win without him pre-Barca.

The stubborness is also by far Wenger's biggest strength. I think it is better to have a system than just a group of players.

Champagne Charlie
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Post by Champagne Charlie »

Who Killed JFK
Did Bush order the bombing of the WTC
Where is Bin Laden
Who really killed Lady Di?
Area 51 and the UFO conspiracies

And the most popular conspiracy theory????


Does Wenger really have money to spend?

And in other news: We happen to play Nocastle on the weekend...

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QuartzGooner
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Post by QuartzGooner »

USMartin wrote:

And here is the proof the truth does not matter to you
What the board and Wenger says makes sense to me.

There is no pressure on me to prove it is true.
The team is not great compared to past teams, but it is not in crisis either, and I have been a fan long enough to know football success goes in cycles.


You on the other hand feel very worried that the board are not telling the truth. So investigate it seriously.

Your repeatedly talking about it on here, is not investigating it. It is just talk, read by about 300 people at most, of whom about 50 maximum have discussed it with you, none of who are board members or who are going to make the slightest difference on how Wenger and the board conduct themselves.

Stop wasting your time talking about it on here and actually do something about it!

Publish an e-book about it. Costs nothing to produce.

Write about it for The Swiss Rambler, arsenalnewsreview,co.uk, Gunnerblog and Arseblog.

Contact newspapers with your suspicions.

Keep on with your petition.

Promote it on online networking sites.


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