Sorry 'bout that Saunders . Also, apologies to any of our brothers from the Jewish persuasion.
(DOES ANYBODY ACTUALLY KNOW ANYONE WHO PRACTICES JUDAISM?).
Also I'm very VERY sorry if I offended anyone who supports Tottenham Hotspur F.C.
I promise I won't do it again, and I accept that this Behaviour - allbeit non-verbal, as it was a written thing that caused offence' will not be repeated.
which brings to mind the QUESTION OF FREE SPEECH......
FREE SPEECH FOR THE DUMB
IDIOTS
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Hagbard 23
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I wasn't going to contribute further to this debate, because we've all made it clear what we think, but to answer Hag's question:
And I know a lot of Arsenal fans who are Jewish, and when I ask them about their attitdues to the use of "****" etc, they usually say they either don't like it but ignore it or they hate it but don't want to make a scene by challenging it.
It seems to me there may be a bit of a divide between those on this Forum who grew up in north London (which has a very large Jewish community) and those who didn't. I know it's not an absolute divide but the fact that Hag even asks who knows anyone practising Judaism suggests a very different life experience to mine.
I certainly agree it's a lot better at Arsenal than it used to be, and I haven't heard any fucker talk or sing about gassing for years, but even what's left is racist. The "policital correctness gone mad and what about free speech?" brigade might not like to think they are racist, and probably wouldn't have dreamed of, for example, calling the late and much mourned Denton a nigger, but the reality is the use of "****" etc is just as racist. And, no, it's not a matter of free choice.
(By the way, before anyone mistakes my views on broader issues relating to the persecution of Jews, I am pretty much anti-Israel. But I don't let my political views about Israel and Palestine confuse seeing abuse of Jews for what it is, racism.)
About a third of my friends are Jewish. Most are occasionally observant in terms of going to synagogue etc, some not at all and some very observant. But they include some whose parents or grandparents were caught up in the holocaust in the 1940s, so racist abuse has a very real meaning for many of them (as it should do for all of us). I've never heard a Jewish Arsenal fan say it's ok.Hagbard 23 wrote:(DOES ANYBODY ACTUALLY KNOW ANYONE WHO PRACTICES JUDAISM?).
And I know a lot of Arsenal fans who are Jewish, and when I ask them about their attitdues to the use of "****" etc, they usually say they either don't like it but ignore it or they hate it but don't want to make a scene by challenging it.
It seems to me there may be a bit of a divide between those on this Forum who grew up in north London (which has a very large Jewish community) and those who didn't. I know it's not an absolute divide but the fact that Hag even asks who knows anyone practising Judaism suggests a very different life experience to mine.
I certainly agree it's a lot better at Arsenal than it used to be, and I haven't heard any fucker talk or sing about gassing for years, but even what's left is racist. The "policital correctness gone mad and what about free speech?" brigade might not like to think they are racist, and probably wouldn't have dreamed of, for example, calling the late and much mourned Denton a nigger, but the reality is the use of "****" etc is just as racist. And, no, it's not a matter of free choice.
(By the way, before anyone mistakes my views on broader issues relating to the persecution of Jews, I am pretty much anti-Israel. But I don't let my political views about Israel and Palestine confuse seeing abuse of Jews for what it is, racism.)
guess this thread has now run to its end with some very valid points ( mostly from cus ) some a bit ott ( mostly from cus ) my own reckoning on it is that the majority who still will call spu*s **** is that they feel they are doing no wrong as that is what the spu*s fans call them selfs,, guess people who feel they are doing no wrong will keep doing it and some will try and stop now that they hav read what was wrote on here which wouldnt be a bad thing 
maybe it is a racist term to some and maybe we should cut it out ,, just that i dont see my self as been a racist and im sorry if i offend but i put it down to football and our rivals up the road and more then likely i will continue to use the y word
,, been irish and working in england in the late 80s i heard a lot worse and also been called paddy and mick so many times i thought i had 3 names but the people who called me that were work mates who werent trying to offend and i believe the same for most gooners.. thank you for listening
maybe it is a racist term to some and maybe we should cut it out ,, just that i dont see my self as been a racist and im sorry if i offend but i put it down to football and our rivals up the road and more then likely i will continue to use the y word
,, been irish and working in england in the late 80s i heard a lot worse and also been called paddy and mick so many times i thought i had 3 names but the people who called me that were work mates who werent trying to offend and i believe the same for most gooners.. thank you for listening
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Cus Geezer
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You have the right to hold whatever opinion you want, sadly for you we have no obligation to put up with listening to it at football matches.which brings to mind the QUESTION OF FREE SPEECH......
FREE SPEECH FOR THE DUMB
Which is exactly the point behind this -
if you want to hold these opinions - fine
if you want the freedom to be ignorant - fine
if you want the freedom to express these opinions of ignorance in public - fine.
Sadly for you Arsenal Football Club are under no obligation to let you air such opinions on their property, if you wish to do the above go find yourself a little seedy back street boozer and spout it there, go home and spout it in your living room - people of whatever racial background have no obligation to listen to it.
The question has been raised by Gallaso about educating others about such terms - people know such terms are found to be offensive by a considerable number of Jews, but are unrepentant about its use. I'm not the slightest bit interested in changing the way people think, if people want to be that ignorant and inconsiderate to the feelings of others - I just don't want to listen to it at Ashburton Grove - save it for your own time and space.
And sadly for you people like me and these particular fans have the law on our side not yours.
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DB10GOONER
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DB10GOONER
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gus ceasar is a legend
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Right here, for any of you guys who don't know, i'm an Israeli and a jew. I ain't your model jew, i don't wear a yamaca (and 99% of my friends and family don't wear one either), i don't go to pray every saturday and i eat non kosher food. I'm a proud sinner (one that does sins) and i celebrate the silvester like most of you guys.(DOES ANYBODY ACTUALLY KNOW ANYONE WHO PRACTICES JUDAISM?).
I find it pretty annoying that some users here think that blocking racist comments on a football pitch is a blocking of free speech. In my point of view, cursing a person for his color or religion is wrong, no matter how democratic your country is.
I think we can all agree that chants about Hitler are wrong, but i find the word "****" or "yiddo" offending and i don't think that is 100% agreed upon.
If a supporter that say the y word don't know the history of it, i think that a fellow gooner should tell him what is behind that word and let him decide if he wants to keep using it or not. If he keeps using it that's an offence just like calling a black guy in the N word.
Well said DanielD (though I have no idea what celebrating the silvester is).
A Jewish Gooner colleague of mine read the debate on this thread the other day. He said he (like all Jews he knows) finds the use of "****" etc offensive. He also said that, when he was a kid in the 80s, he and his brother seriously worried about getting beaten up at games by fellow Arsenal fans for being Jewish. They didn't think the abuse was a joke and did think it was targeted at them, as Jews, not just Spurs fans. Is that what Arsenal fans intend to do, intimidate children who go to Arsenal games to support Arsenal? Of course not, but that's the effect.
I know most Arsenal fans don't consciously use the language to abuse Jews, and it all stems from (mostly non-Jewish) Spurs fans' own use of "****", but we can't ignore the effect our thoughtless use of language has. I hope over time that we all come to realise that this just isn't on. As has been said, many white people in the UK in the 60s and 70s thought it was ok to use terms like "coon", "coloured" and "Paki", but that changed. I can only hope that those who still think it's ok to use racist language about Jews (and others) learn to stop doing so in the same way.
A Jewish Gooner colleague of mine read the debate on this thread the other day. He said he (like all Jews he knows) finds the use of "****" etc offensive. He also said that, when he was a kid in the 80s, he and his brother seriously worried about getting beaten up at games by fellow Arsenal fans for being Jewish. They didn't think the abuse was a joke and did think it was targeted at them, as Jews, not just Spurs fans. Is that what Arsenal fans intend to do, intimidate children who go to Arsenal games to support Arsenal? Of course not, but that's the effect.
I know most Arsenal fans don't consciously use the language to abuse Jews, and it all stems from (mostly non-Jewish) Spurs fans' own use of "****", but we can't ignore the effect our thoughtless use of language has. I hope over time that we all come to realise that this just isn't on. As has been said, many white people in the UK in the 60s and 70s thought it was ok to use terms like "coon", "coloured" and "Paki", but that changed. I can only hope that those who still think it's ok to use racist language about Jews (and others) learn to stop doing so in the same way.
