Serious question

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Henry Norris 1913
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Post by Henry Norris 1913 »

You're the fraud Duffman. You love Arsenal so much better you would let the Board destroy before you'd say a damned thing because that's how you love a football club. You take it up the ass from the owners in the club's name
And what exactly have you done to combat the problems with our club then? waffle on the internet for a year, abusing others who don't agree with you?
You started a petition and it got 20 signatures, what else do you expect to do? While I and many on here joined in with the BSM campaign you were pounding away on your keyboard posting in the protest page giving your self important pep talk. Don't make us sound like the apathetic ones when all you achieved on here is a notorious reputation for topic derailment and putting words into people's mouths and yet you still think your the mack daddy and start throwing around insults.
I've never known anyone to spend so much time on the internet posting about ONE topic for so long. Get over yourself

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DUFFMAN
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Post by DUFFMAN »

You're the fraud Duffman. You love Arsenal so much better you would let the Board destroy before you'd say a damned thing because that's how you love a football club. You take it up the ass from the owners in the club's name
no. i love a football club by following them all over the country and singing my heart out regardless during the 90mins because thats what supporting actually means.you know,the kinda noise that they can actually hear, not just the kinda noise you make on a computer.
So I guess we need to give him two summers than, no? Or maybe five like we gave this Board to make the mess they did?
or maybe 5 like the messiah you love to defend. or 10 or 15 until he does a brian clough.happy to give the puppeteer all the summers he wants but the NEW board dont even get one
Boy if you love the club properly and "the way we're 'supposed to l;ove the club" maybe we're better off with no supporters at all.
so your saying that your way is the way proper fans are supposed to??
no supporters at all? better than having just one 'fan' like you

You should avoid such asinine comments or hypocritical judgments.
ah ha ha ha well i guess you'd know.prick

now get waffling

mcdowell42
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Post by mcdowell42 »

And another night passes and still no evidence or proof from US Marty.The silence speaks volumes US marty nothing but a spoofer and a waffler.The embarrasment of it hang your head in shame.Until tomorrow :roll:

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DUFFMAN
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Post by DUFFMAN »

Henry Norris 1913 wrote:
You're the fraud Duffman. You love Arsenal so much better you would let the Board destroy before you'd say a damned thing because that's how you love a football club. You take it up the ass from the owners in the club's name
And what exactly have you done to combat the problems with our club then? waffle on the internet for a year, abusing others who don't agree with you?
You started a petition and it got 20 signatures, what else do you expect to do? While I and many on here joined in with the BSM campaign you were pounding away on your keyboard posting in the protest page giving your self important pep talk. Don't make us sound like the apathetic ones when all you achieved on here is a notorious reputation for topic derailment and putting words into people's mouths and yet you still think your the mack daddy and start throwing around insults.
I've never known anyone to spend so much time on the internet posting about ONE topic for so long. Get over yourself
can bet whilst we were all on the march, he was on one of his 'lifestyle' forums telling anyone who'd listen that his footsoldiers were partaking in an act of his battle.
not forgetting the many scars he's recieved for that battle :roll:

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USMartin
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Post by USMartin »

DUFFMAN wrote: no. i love a football club by following them all over the country and singing my heart out regardless during the 90mins because thats what supporting actually means.you know,the kinda noise that they can actually hear, not just the kinda noise you make on a computer.
What a phony. You’re on here matching me post for posts right now. Do you attend more matches than I do? Yes only because I do not live in England you fake twat. The only reason. Not because you a more loyal or a better supporter. It is the sole advantage you have especially given that you believe loyalty is letting the Board treat you like a chump and idiot right to your face. No that’s stupidity. You can still love Arsenal the way you say and question how the Board runs the club. Only people of blind faith cannot see that reality. You make no more effort out of greater love for Arsenal than me for any other reason than you are just there in England full-time That is the sole reason your commitment day-to-day to attend matches is stronger than mine.

It’s a shame - you should be heartily commended for you effort to follow and support the club – period. But you are the one who uses these phony standards to claim some false moral superiority even as you would happily let the Arsenal Board lie to and cheat you because of some twisted notion of loyalty being disrespected at every turn and just accepting it. Your supposed moral superiority is an accident of being born where you are buffted by an uglier form of nationalisnm bordering on tribalism

DUFFMAN wrote:
or maybe 5 like the messiah you love to defend. or 10 or 15 until he does a brian clough.happy to give the puppeteer all the summers he wants but the NEW board dont even get one
Here’s your new board

http://www.arsenal.com/the-club/corpora ... enal-board

The Arsenal Board
Peter Hill-Wood
Ivan Gazidis
Ken Friar OBE
Sir Chips Keswick
Lord Harris of Peckham
Stanley Kroenke

Where’s this New Board you speak of…it’s basically the same exact Board that has run arsenal since 2008 and largely the same as the Board than ran Arsenal in 2005. In this critical summer not one new Board member regardless of their inclinations about football or business ot the business of football has been invited onto the Board.
To make matters worse the one member you are counting on to make some sort of difference despite the fact that he has yet in almost three full years to show any such inclination probably won’t even be here this summer because he will be more concerned about the labor disputes that may affect two of his other sports franchises here in the U.S.

What do you want to give them a year for? To do the same thing they have done the last three years? Or five years? You want to give them a chance, that would fine if you were willing to put them under some real pressure to right what they can right the way you would the manager as you try to pretend he alone has created this mess. But you don’t want to do that do you?
But if we do spend what we should and could spend and then Arsene Wenger manages that team to the Double who will be responsible then?
DUFFMAN wrote:
so your saying that your way is the way proper fans are supposed to??
no supporters at all? better than having just one 'fan' like you
Not at all. I’d suggest you have said that by suggesting people who don’t share you views don’t love the club and have self-serving agendas. Of Course the same Board still running Arsenal that has run arsenal back to 2005 basically that lied to you that you kept trusting because that’s real loyalty and genuine love and cashed in for in some cases hundreds of millions of pounds had no self-serving agenda.

I think you have the self-serving agenda of preserving a World in which Arsenal remains unique and special in the way it operates and conducts its affairs , an Arsenal like that of the 1930’s , and preserving your belief that that Arsenal still exists is your agenda

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USMartin
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Post by USMartin »

Henry Norris 1913 wrote:
You're the fraud Duffman. You love Arsenal so much better you would let the Board destroy before you'd say a damned thing because that's how you love a football club. You take it up the ass from the owners in the club's name
And what exactly have you done to combat the problems with our club then? waffle on the internet for a year, abusing others who don't agree with you?
You started a petition and it got 20 signatures, what else do you expect to do? While I and many on here joined in with the BSM campaign you were pounding away on your keyboard posting in the protest page giving your self important pep talk. Don't make us sound like the apathetic ones when all you achieved on here is a notorious reputation for topic derailment and putting words into people's mouths and yet you still think your the mack daddy and start throwing around insults.
I've never known anyone to spend so much time on the internet posting about ONE topic for so long. Get over yourself
Oh please you live in Engaklnd and haven't said a goddamn thing for years years and you're going to try and claim some moral superiority because you are in England and have gone on a march and haven't done anything else to question anything?

I can guarantee that if I lived in England full-time over the past five years that I would have done far more far sooner than you can claim you have done. You should be ashamed at your failure or lack of desire to act sooner and then trying to claim you are less apathetic because you live in England and no other viable reason.

This efforto to portray the fatct that you live in england automatically makes you morally suporior and that not living in England automatcially disqualifies any others from having strong views on the club is as I said earlier and very ugly form of nationalism

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USMartin
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Post by USMartin »

DUFFMAN wrote:like the messiah you love to defend
This is the biggest rubbish of all

It's a simple matter of fact-based logic

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key= ... eRF0RfLrMQ

From 1998- 2005 with a net SPEND of just over 5 Milliion GBP

* Three Premier League Championships
* Four FA Cup Final Victories
* Two League and Cup Doubles
* The Invicble Premership Season
* Top Two finish every season

as opposed to

From 2006-2011 with a net PROFIT of just over 5 Million GBP

* No trophies in any competition
* No league finish above third

and this

http://www.plusquoted.com/chart?code=AF ... PERIOD_10Y


that the share price just happened to - coincidentally no doubt :lol: - go from 4000 GBP in May of 2005 to 11000 GBP in May 2011.

But I'm the one with the self-serving egenda not the individuals who made in excess of 100 million pounds or those who made millions out of shares they were given for free. Oh no...couldn't be. That is sarcasm btw that last bit.
Last edited by USMartin on Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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USMartin
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Post by USMartin »

frankbutcher wrote:SERIOUS QUESTION.

HOW IS A PUBLICY LISTED FOOTBALL CLUB ANY DIFFERENT FROM ANY OTHER BUSINESS IS THE WORLD?

WHY IS A FOOTBALL CLUB NOT THERE TO BE EXPLOITED BY THE SHAREHOLDERS FOR PROFITS?
I think this is a very valid question.

I think there is a very legitimate debate to had in this regard, but I think at this point in time as Simon Kuper points out in "Soccernomics" football clubs are not traditional for-profir business entetites in large part because in football still moreso than most other professional sports football clubs are representatives of the communities in which they located and play their home matches, for example look at the number of clubs located in London and the close associations for better or in some cases worse with their local communities and neiughborhoods.

I think the real issue is not that this Board behaved like other Boards in other businesses do or even other Football Club Boards have but that it wrapped itself in this community represntation ethic, as well as in portraying itself as representatives of higher and more honrurable sporting values and the Arsenal Way ahead of any perceived personal self-interest.

As long as it holds a controlling interest of a company any corporate board has the right to run that company any way they see fit for any reason until they are forced out of power - and this would hold true of the Board at Arsenal Football Club. If they hold a controlling interest in the company it is in effect their company to do whatever they wish with it and no one can do anything really to stop then in a prely business law sense.

I would suggest hey clearly felt that if they simply honest about acting in their own interest ahead of Arsenal's as a whole they would not get the same supporter support to do the same things they chose to in the same way and thus even if the went ahead it wouild be without the same financial success for them personally probably. So they mis-led the people who entrusted them the club's welfare and best interests and that makes it that much more wrong.

By mis-leading the supporters and in effect limiting opposition protest and evenneconomic action by the supp[orters they have made more money than they would have if they showed the kind of candor or honour about there intentions we trusted them to show.

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DUFFMAN
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Post by DUFFMAN »

USMartin wrote:
DUFFMAN wrote: no. i love a football club by following them all over the country and singing my heart out regardless during the 90mins because thats what supporting actually means.you know,the kinda noise that they can actually hear, not just the kinda noise you make on a computer.
WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE
WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE


WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE
WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE

DUFFMAN wrote:
or maybe 5 like the messiah you love to defend. or 10 or 15 until he does a brian clough.happy to give the puppeteer all the summers he wants but the NEW board dont even get one
WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE
WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE
WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE
DUFFMAN wrote:
so your saying that your way is the way proper fans are supposed to??
no supporters at all? better than having just one 'fan' like you
WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE
WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE
WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE


Ok, i get what you're saying now.

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USMartin
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Post by USMartin »

DUFFMAN wrote:
USMartin wrote:
DUFFMAN wrote: no. i love a football club by following them all over the country and singing my heart out regardless during the 90mins because thats what supporting actually means.you know,the kinda noise that they can actually hear, not just the kinda noise you make on a computer.
WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE
WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE


WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE
WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE

DUFFMAN wrote:
or maybe 5 like the messiah you love to defend. or 10 or 15 until he does a brian clough.happy to give the puppeteer all the summers he wants but the NEW board dont even get one
WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE
WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE
WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE
DUFFMAN wrote:
so your saying that your way is the way proper fans are supposed to??
no supporters at all? better than having just one 'fan' like you
WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE
WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE
WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE


Ok, i get what you're saying now.


:yawn: :yawn: :yawn:

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Cockerill's chin
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Post by Cockerill's chin »

I hope Kroenke invests in the team but the chinese whispers of Benzema in May have turned into Gervinho in June. Not a promising start but I can't dissassociate AW from the reluctance to spend. DD apparently had to provide him with the valium to sanction Sol's wage from the spuds.

I don't understand one point of yours' Martin. I have agreed with you that the previous shareholders were selfishly motivated by increasing share price at the expense of the club. They were focussed on driving up their portfolios by neglecting the playing side. I think many on here agree with you on this point.

You now group Stan Kroenke in with this. Why would the new owner want to drive up how much he had to pay for the club? Especially when he knows that what would have cost £20m net squad investment to put right in 2008, would cost £90 million net to address when he took over the reins?

Maybe you want to group him in with the board so you can justify continuing your obsession? Do you not think that we need to seperate out the board and the shareholders? The shareholders hold the power and other board members are just employees on good wages. Much the same as Wenger.

Talking of Wenger, you seem to accuse him of just going along with the shareholders as he was raking in his enormous wage and only had to achieve top four. I do not agree with your implication that he, like the shareholders, was motivated by greed into following the plan. I think The Project would have excited his ego just as much as his wage excited his bank manager.

DF and his allies were running things until they sold their shares. Kroenke had to bide his time until he became the majority shareholder. We can now judge Kroenke. It will, however, be difficult to judge Kroenke on Gervinho rather than Benzema. We do not have the proof that it is not AW who values the cheaper option. Not under this regime.

I think there is one only one way to tell if things have changed at the Arsenal under the new majority shareholder:

If AW doesn't genuinely challenge for the league next year then will Kroenke have the motivation to sack him if top four is achieved?

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USMartin
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Post by USMartin »

Good hearing from you CC and some intersting points.

I think that question you raise is a very good intruiguing and potentially worrying one - the one about why Stan Kroenke would go along with the policies that helped push the share price even higher than it might have gone had the Board advocated other policies

I have asked myself that more than a few times, and the answer I come up with is that Stan Kroenke is not simply looking at Arsenal as a football club but the anchor of an European and perhaps Worldwide telecommunications network a larger scale version of his Altitude Sports and Entertainment TV. I sense he is hoping he can show Arsenal in america, and football, Basketball, hockey teams on his own networks across the planet - Business Synergy 101.

I think between something like that with Arsenal and global tours to Asia or the U. S. that he might think he could continue to push the share price higher through that alone. And given his success with Altitude Spoerts and Entertainment TV and that Arsenal continued to grow financially without additional investment in the football or silverware from it, he might just try and work this way thinking he could make big money that way.

He also might launch his own ticket distribution company ala Tickethorse the complany he operates here for ticketing for his American teams's events primarily. I don't know how much you can glean from it but the artcle linked below gives some insifg=ght into how expansive Mr. Kroenke's sports and sports-related business interests already are even without considering Arsenal Football Club and may give us some insight into how he shall proceed with Arsenal as an owner, and why while I sahre your hopes I wouldn't be too confident of anything at this point.

http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/news/ ... l?page=all

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USMartin
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Post by USMartin »

On the Project CC I think that is possible, but I also think the money might preclude him changing his mind either out of personal frustration or disappointment he was experiencing oor even out out the supporters frutsration possibly impacting him.

I think what might be more accurate is that the money he was making made it easier for him not to complain where he might have, not to protest where he might have and not to change where he might have otherwise. Some thing that can happen to all of us and has happmed to many of us at one time or another.

But if I somehow conveyed that he simply was bribed into going along than either I mis-stated my point or perhaps you mis-read it.

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Henry Norris 1913
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Post by Henry Norris 1913 »

Oh please you live in Engaklnd and haven't said a goddamn thing for years years and you're going to try and claim some moral superiority because you are in England and have gone on a march and haven't done anything else to question anything?
nothing to do with living in england , ffs will you stop twisting words? I make A LOT of effort to support this club and it is painfully hypocritical of you to be sitting across the atlantic calling out lifelong fans who also make the effort because they won't submit to you.
This efforto to portray the fatct that you live in england automatically makes you morally suporior and that not living in England automatcially disqualifies any others from having strong views on the club is as I said earlier and very ugly form of nationalism
I've known you a while US and your very quick to cry racism. The fact is its always you taking the moral high ground , claiming "To have done something sooner" if you were living in england . Like what? :roll:

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QuartzGooner
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Post by QuartzGooner »

USMartin:

Board changes since 2005?

Plenty.

Same board now as then?

No.

Same board now as 2008?

No.

As CC points out, it used to be Fiszman calling the shots in business, with Edelman imposing strict day to day spending limits.

Dein would be networking internationally and negotiating player contracts.

Ken Friar and David Miles would rubber stamp the contracts.

Roger Carr would report on youth development.

Lord Harris, Sir Chips and Peter Hill-Wood responsible for corporate liaison and talking to investment banks for stadium and housing funding, but the actual deals signed by Edelman.

And Wenger would have control of all on pitch activities, though there remains debate as to whether the Arshavin signing was the sole exception to this?


Now the board is different.

Kroenke has put his team in place to run things.
Gazidis (as you point out) the day to day man, but a slew of other non board appointees looking at new commercial projects and an in house lawyer too.

We judge Kroenke from now on.

As for Usmanov, Arseblog just posted saying that he needs over 30% of shares to gain access to the club accounts over and above those published to everyone as an obligation of a plc. (Available as a pdf from the club website).

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