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Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:30 pm
by ThomasMitchell
QuartzGooner wrote:ThomasMitchell wrote:
I didn’t say that being in trouble with the police previously justified him being shot, I was making the point that it goes some way to debunk the theory that he was a 'good guy'. Funny how so many people involved in knife and gun crimes and end up dead are always the 'good guys'. As for his cousin being stabbed, emmm what sort of people he was hanging out with?!
Did you know the dead man?
Because if you did not, then how can you pass judgement?
One paper says he was part of a gang and a criminal.
Maybe he was? Maybe he just knew some dodgy people because he went to school with them and carried on living in the same area?
But the point in all this is the manner (If you'll pardon the pun!) in which he was killed.
If he was not armed, and was sitting in a minicab, and did not shoot at the police, then he was executed.
Personally I prefer the rule of law and the right to a fair trial.
As for his cousin being stabbed, how does that make the deceased a worse person?
I know people who have been murdered, does that make me a bad person?
It is a simple fact that the mood on the streets of London has not been good for a long while and so many kids carry themselves as if they were some sort of badman that it creates and escalates a culture of aggression.
Add that to disadvantaged families and you get a powder keg environment.
As for the rioters and looters they are just criminals. Regardless of cuts to youth centres, though I do feel sympathy for those affected by the cuts.
But as Sammy says, there are jobs out there an there are opportunities and you just have to have the strength of mind to get on with it.
Perhaps more mentoring programmes would be a good thing, because lack of a male role model in families is not a good thing in many cases.
I can pass judgement very easily actually, just like you so often do on this forum. No, I didn’t know him or his cousin but my guess is that they were both trouble, contributing very little if anything to their local communities apart from the spread of fear and intimidation. People with guns, people with knives are not good people. Let’s stop making excuses for these people and show a bit more concern for the real victims. What we need is a little less tolerance, not more.
Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:41 pm
by Rugby Gooner
Diane Abbott,is part of the problem! She was my M.P. for a while and was always banging on about how it was "provocative" to have Police Officers patrolling certain estates in London,(particularly white officers).This continual political correctness is part of the reason the police stood off and watched the looting etc.If they had "gone in" and, snatched and arrested people,they would have been accused,(probably by her),of heavy handed policing.
They are in a no win situation.
She is also a hypocrite,in that she banged on about the virtues of comprehensive education,then sent her children to private schools.
I also have vague memories of her being involved in continually kicking The Met when she was on the G.L.C.
By the way,I am not a total apologist for the OB.They too have a lot to be ashamed of,and alot to answer for,for example,the way that they handled the whole Stephen Lawerence issue,the Blair Peach incident,and the SPG with their lockers full of illegal weapons,(koshes etc).
I was also involved in the miners strike,and witnessed some of their excesses first hand on picket lines etc.
Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:09 pm
by QuartzGooner
ThomasMitchell wrote:QuartzGooner wrote:ThomasMitchell wrote:
I didn’t say that being in trouble with the police previously justified him being shot, I was making the point that it goes some way to debunk the theory that he was a 'good guy'. Funny how so many people involved in knife and gun crimes and end up dead are always the 'good guys'. As for his cousin being stabbed, emmm what sort of people he was hanging out with?!
Did you know the dead man?
Because if you did not, then how can you pass judgement?
One paper says he was part of a gang and a criminal.
Maybe he was? Maybe he just knew some dodgy people because he went to school with them and carried on living in the same area?
But the point in all this is the manner (If you'll pardon the pun!) in which he was killed.
If he was not armed, and was sitting in a minicab, and did not shoot at the police, then he was executed.
Personally I prefer the rule of law and the right to a fair trial.
As for his cousin being stabbed, how does that make the deceased a worse person?
I know people who have been murdered, does that make me a bad person?
It is a simple fact that the mood on the streets of London has not been good for a long while and so many kids carry themselves as if they were some sort of badman that it creates and escalates a culture of aggression.
Add that to disadvantaged families and you get a powder keg environment.
As for the rioters and looters they are just criminals. Regardless of cuts to youth centres, though I do feel sympathy for those affected by the cuts.
But as Sammy says, there are jobs out there an there are opportunities and you just have to have the strength of mind to get on with it.
Perhaps more mentoring programmes would be a good thing, because lack of a male role model in families is not a good thing in many cases.
I can pass judgement very easily actually, just like you so often do on this forum. No, I didn’t know him or his cousin but my guess is that they were both trouble, contributing very little if anything to their local communities apart from the spread of fear and intimidation. People with guns, people with knives are not good people. Let’s stop making excuses for these people and show a bit more concern for the real victims. What we need is a little less tolerance, not more.
Then your judgement is flawed.
You do not respond to my main point.
If an innocent man can get executed by police, then more innocent men can too.
There is NO proof that the dead man had a gun.
If there is proof that emerges later, then will there be any evidence that the gun was loaded, aimed at police or fired at police?
Harry Stanley, Jean Charles De Menezes and Ian Tomlinson were all needlessly killed.
As for your point, of whom do we need to be less tolerant of?
Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:30 pm
by ThomasMitchell
QuartzGooner wrote:ThomasMitchell wrote:QuartzGooner wrote:ThomasMitchell wrote:
I didn’t say that being in trouble with the police previously justified him being shot, I was making the point that it goes some way to debunk the theory that he was a 'good guy'. Funny how so many people involved in knife and gun crimes and end up dead are always the 'good guys'. As for his cousin being stabbed, emmm what sort of people he was hanging out with?!
Did you know the dead man?
Because if you did not, then how can you pass judgement?
One paper says he was part of a gang and a criminal.
Maybe he was? Maybe he just knew some dodgy people because he went to school with them and carried on living in the same area?
But the point in all this is the manner (If you'll pardon the pun!) in which he was killed.
If he was not armed, and was sitting in a minicab, and did not shoot at the police, then he was executed.
Personally I prefer the rule of law and the right to a fair trial.
As for his cousin being stabbed, how does that make the deceased a worse person?
I know people who have been murdered, does that make me a bad person?
It is a simple fact that the mood on the streets of London has not been good for a long while and so many kids carry themselves as if they were some sort of badman that it creates and escalates a culture of aggression.
Add that to disadvantaged families and you get a powder keg environment.
As for the rioters and looters they are just criminals. Regardless of cuts to youth centres, though I do feel sympathy for those affected by the cuts.
But as Sammy says, there are jobs out there an there are opportunities and you just have to have the strength of mind to get on with it.
Perhaps more mentoring programmes would be a good thing, because lack of a male role model in families is not a good thing in many cases.
I can pass judgement very easily actually, just like you so often do on this forum. No, I didn’t know him or his cousin but my guess is that they were both trouble, contributing very little if anything to their local communities apart from the spread of fear and intimidation. People with guns, people with knives are not good people. Let’s stop making excuses for these people and show a bit more concern for the real victims. What we need is a little less tolerance, not more.
Then your judgement is flawed.
You do not respond to my main point.
If an innocent man can get executed by police, then more innocent men can too.
There is NO proof that the dead man had a gun.
If there is proof that emerges later, then will there be any evidence that the gun was loaded, aimed at police or fired at police?
Harry Stanley, Jean Charles De Menezes and Ian Tomlinson were all needlessly killed.
How do you know an innocent man was executed by the police? Were you there? I never made a judgement one way or the other about him been shot by the police. I made a judgement about him as a person (dead or alive) that he was a bad'un - like so many of these gun-toting bullies are in our inner cities. I also made a judgement about the behaviour of the thugs on Saturday and Sunday night and stand by that 100%. Nasty, horrible people interested in nothing else but themselves and where their next pair of Nike's are coming from.
Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:30 pm
by SWLGooner
I agree with ThomasMitchell
Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:32 pm
by ThomasMitchell
SWLGooner wrote:I agree with ThomasMitchell
Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:34 pm
by HashKads
I agree with Quartz, I think the facts should be distinguished before judgement is passed.
Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:39 pm
by QuartzGooner
ThomasMitchell wrote:
How do you know an innocent man was executed by the police? Were you there? I never made a judgement one way or the other about him been shot by the police. I made a judgement about him as a person (dead or alive) that he was a bad'un - like so many of these gun-toting bullies are in our inner cities. I also made a judgement about the behaviour of the thugs on Saturday and Sunday night and stand by that 100%. Nasty, horrible people interested in nothing else but themselves and where their next pair of Nike's are coming from.
Where did I say he was either innocent or guilty of firearms possesion?
On my initial post I said it seemed that way.
But then reports came through that this was in doubt, and that the bullet that struck the policeman was a police issue bullet, giving doubt to the whole story of how Mark Duggan died.
So I clarified in other posts there was no proof he was carrying a gun, or fired a gun at police, or if he did have a gun, if it was loaded.
So now I wait for further ballistic tests and an inquiry.
As for Mark Duggan carrying a gun, I would rather civilians did not carry guns. But even if he did, it does not make him an evil person. If he had reason to be scared for his own life, then that would explain it.
If he was drug dealer, I have little sympathy for him and he needed to be arrested.
But I am not going to take a Daily Mail article on his character as gospel truth, because that is a newspaper full of invented "stories" and half truths.
I clearly said I condemned the rioters/looters.
Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:49 pm
by ThomasMitchell
QuartzGooner wrote:ThomasMitchell wrote:
How do you know an innocent man was executed by the police? Were you there? I never made a judgement one way or the other about him been shot by the police. I made a judgement about him as a person (dead or alive) that he was a bad'un - like so many of these gun-toting bullies are in our inner cities. I also made a judgement about the behaviour of the thugs on Saturday and Sunday night and stand by that 100%. Nasty, horrible people interested in nothing else but themselves and where their next pair of Nike's are coming from.
As for Mark Duggan carrying a gun, I would rather civilians did not carry guns. But even if he did, it does not make him an evil person.
Oh dear, I rest my case!
Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:50 pm
by Irish Gooner
I agree with quartz. I'm all for locking up these scum knife carriers and gun slingers, but I want to see some facts before it. Not too much to ask it ?
We've already had one "fact" spread by the Met which was found only days later to be a total lie and the basis of that several here including Mr Mitchell have took their every word as fact.
As quite rightly Quartz has pointed out, the Met are no saints either with those other innocent killings and their corruption in the recent news corp scandal. I wouldnt trust these guys as far as I could throw them, we havent even established if Mark Duggan was armed at all. I mean if the Met "thought" he fired at them, it's very possible they could be wrong about his possession charge as well.
Basically what I feel is, the Met cannot be trusted anymore, and of course we want the scum gangsta bluds with their knifes and guns locked up, but we already know they are doing a damn shite job of that.
As for the Labour/Tory sparring that continues through these events, I have no time for either party or the Lib Dems, after that there is very little left.
Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:50 pm
by ThomasMitchell
kingjayson1 wrote:I agree with Quartz, I think the facts should be distinguished before judgement is passed.
Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:52 pm
by Irish Gooner
ThomasMitchell wrote:QuartzGooner wrote:ThomasMitchell wrote:
How do you know an innocent man was executed by the police? Were you there? I never made a judgement one way or the other about him been shot by the police. I made a judgement about him as a person (dead or alive) that he was a bad'un - like so many of these gun-toting bullies are in our inner cities. I also made a judgement about the behaviour of the thugs on Saturday and Sunday night and stand by that 100%. Nasty, horrible people interested in nothing else but themselves and where their next pair of Nike's are coming from.
As for Mark Duggan carrying a gun, I would rather civilians did not carry guns. But even if he did, it does not make him an evil person.
Oh dear, I rest my case!
Well you've failed if so. Because:
1) We dont know he had a gun
2) We know he didnt fire it
3) Gun possession alone doesnt warrant shoot to kill policy.
It's quite possible he was in fear for his life and carried. If you dont believe so, travel to America sometime.
Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:17 pm
by QuartzGooner
ThomasMitchell wrote:
Oh dear, I rest my case!
You haven't made a rational "Case".
See Northbankbren's and Irish Gooner's excellent posts for reasons your argument on the shooting does not stand at this point in time.
Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:33 pm
by Yankee_Gooner_Dandee
i was under the impression that gun violence in england was comparitively low as to say the united states and even canada. so there were riots because some guy with a gun got shot by cops? fuck me, if that were the case there would be riots every 5 minutes
Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:37 pm
by ThomasMitchell
QuartzGooner wrote:ThomasMitchell wrote:
Oh dear, I rest my case!
You haven't made a rational "Case".
See Northbankbren's and Irish Gooner's excellent posts for reasons your argument on the shooting does not stand at this point in time.
I've made a completely rational case. Look at my previous posts. I have covered a wide range of issues and given reasons for my views. I don't live in a conspiracy world like you where the police and Daily Mail are out to get us all. Carry on with your 'let's find an excuse for any behaviour' mentality. Your previous comment about people who carry guns around London is frankly laughable.