You make some good points but a few points to come back on here.Bendtners Drinking Buddy wrote:I’m not really into the whole labelling of fans, I think its derogatory and reasonably pointless given at the end of the day we are all supporters – you are no less of an Arsenal supporter if you want Wenger gone, no more than you are less of one if you think he is the right man for the job. In forums such as this and in the stands at away games it’s that very point which has caused a lot of the tension and unfortunately as we saw at Stoke, fighting between our own fans.
Look at that final point from an external point of view (not necessarily mine), perhaps say that of a fan of Liverpool or Tottenham who have spent hundreds of millions of pounds not just on playing staff, but managers, contacts, agents etc. etc. just to be in the league position we are now, and have occupied consistently as a minimum for 18 years. That’s not to forget both have a huge desire to playing their football in a stadium such as ours. So looking at it objectively from their point of view, one mirrored by 88 other English league clubs and the media – unfurling a banner after a hard fought 1-0 away victory is always going to look, at best, a bit foolish and coins headlines such as “spoilt Arsenal fans” as we saw on the BBC etc.
Are we spoilt? Of course we have been – we have seen some of the best players to ever play the game play their football under Wenger, he made Henry, Vieira and Pires into superstars, he managed to convince a multi-cultural team of players from all over the world that they could complete a season without losing a league game, he was won an abundance of trophies, we have competed in the Champions League consistently, he has managed 180 games in the competition for us, he is for all intents and purpose a very, very good manager. However, is that enough? Is he, and ergo Arsenal, doing enough?
His tangible success is of course skewed towards his initial eight years in charge, there is no question of that. The players that have been wearing the famous red and white have without question diminished in quality (as they were always going too after the invincible side) – it leads many fans to ask, and get frustrated in that “are we fulfilling our potential?”, two league titles (2008 and 2014) were there for the taking with the right additions in the January window – additions that were obvious to any fan, or any club at that time. The Carling Cup in 2011 was unlucky given the players missing and a freak result can occur in a final (ask Luton, West Ham and Parma) but its one that went away. Again, it could be argued “but we are competing for trophies” which we are and is all any fan wants really – to be competing knowing your time will come. But is it acceptable to have title challenges over by October? Is it acceptable to have characteristics in a team evident year on year – give them the upper hand and they will murder you with a footballing lesson, but get at them early and they will often collapse, often just for short periods, but collapse spectacularly and emabarrasingly.
Therein is where I fell lies the frustrations, the “groundhog day” nature of a team packed full of footballing quality, but with an Achilles heel that supporters know in mid-august will be the shortcoming of the side. From Squad depth, to a new Vieira to a killer 30-goal a season striker, we have had it all – every year we know we will give a team a pasting, we will get a hiding away and we will, against the big sides come up short. We are an 7.5/10 club and have been for some time consistently good enough to be in the top four and get to the last 16 of the CL but that’s our limit, however we pay 10/10 prices.
It must be pointed out however, football has changed dramatically since Wenger took charge in 1996. The modern football world is different, players are bigger than the clubs, it’s not how many of people (dare I say a little older than me!) remember it – every big club in the country operates as we do in terms of ticketing, merchandise, the desire for a global reach, owners rather than supporting “chairman”. Add to that diets, nutrition, player scouting systems – it has all moved on. Wenger was way, way ahead of his time, streets ahead – many respected names in the game cite him for changing football in this country. He has adapted his own way of working, his “30 year” policy has changed, the wage structure has changed, he has bought “marquee” players when the transfer funds have allowed, he hasn’t “stood still” as some would make you believe. However that is all off the pitch, on the pitch his mantra remains in terms of set-up, philosophy, youth development and player management – again it IS “SUCCESFUL” in wider football terms, we operate in the echelons of European football, but should we be higher? Could we very easily be higher with adjustments?
The current frustrations are that we won the FA Cup, but we haven’t built on it. We have gone into a season with 6 fit defenders, which coupled with a horrendous combination of key injuries means we cannot maintain a consistent side. There is no spine, at least not a fit one. Maybe the optimism was so high in the summer with the arrivals of big signings that this crash has been felt harder than perhaps it would have been. You only have to look at Debuchy last night to see what a difference having a proper right back makes – Wenger has, and im sure he would admit himself, mucked up the start of this season, dramatically. I doubt you would find ANY Arsenal fan that disagrees with that.
The questions I would ask any fan are – are you willing to roll the dice? Risk 7.5/10 for an 8 or a 9, but possibly a 6./10. When Arsenal a 2-0 up in a game after 17 minutes would you be happy for them to shut up shop a la Jose and pay £90 to watch a dead game , or go for it? Would you have taken a top 4 and an FA Cup for two/three seasons running? Do you trust the board to make an appointment that would involve an element of risk to enable this rolling of the dice? These are all rhetorical really, we will all have views, but changing Wenger would open up those questions.
The fact of the matter is, Wenger will be our manager till the end of this season – that’s a Fact. We could be 12th in January and Klopp was available it wouldn’t make an iota of difference. I understand people feel disjointed to Arsenal – but is that Wenger, Arsenal or the way of Modern Football? Wenger needs to make changes to himself, and his squad – the problem we have of course is not all of us believe he will. Right now, the best we can hope for is a top 4 finish and a trophy. Right now, I think Wenger is best placed to deliver that – like alcohol, he is the cause and the solution to the problem, at least short term.
Just a word on the “abuse” to Wenger. It should never, ever get personal. Not a man who has done so much for us, and this club – he remained loyal when he was at his peak to stay and guide us through the stadium development, he has given us all memories, players and countless clips to watch drunk on youtube we will never forget. I don’t doubt for a second Wenger loves this club, and us, as much as we do. I saw a point that because he abuses officials we can abuse him? Please, we are all one side here, the abuse is coming from his own – and that will hurt this club. I agree, we want more and should work for more, and maybe his time is up – it’s a view I respect - but the personal abuse is out of line. These banners after games? What really is the point? As I said above it won’t change a thing, right now we should be looking short term to get these season back on track as a club. The infighting and labelling makes us look as a club that we are starved of everything we are always so very, very proud of before, during and after Wenger – CLASS. Protest if you wish, but respect those that don’t and above all, remember its Arsenal, remember who we are, and what we represent.
I don’t get the argument about saying “Liverpool and Tottenham have spent millions trying to do what we are doing”, I would argue Liverpool’s ultimate goal is to win the Premier League, as they almost did last season. Initially they will celebrate top 4 because that is better than where they were but if they did it for 3 or 4 seasons in a row there will be a growing feeling they are not progressing. So stagnating in the top four is not success, for them it’s the next step to the ultimate success. And as for 88 league clubs, only around 3 of them are even remotely comparable to us in price to watch and resources available. If a league two supporter accused me of whinging for nothing I would ask them if they were prepared to pay £129 to watch one game of their team or £1500 for a season. It simply isn’t a comparison.
Am I willing to roll the dice to risk moving away from 7.5 out of ten? 100% yes. I have never been so bored of watching my team. And I am pretty sure that even if I completely disagree with whoever replaced Wenger, the first game with them in charge will be the most excited I have been about watching AFC for many years. What makes football exciting for me is that it is unpredictable. Under Wenger we are predictable. At the start of each of the last 4/5 seasons I have completely confident that we will not win the league or champions league. That’s boring and frustrating because we do have enough resources to make credible challenges. I don’t know how say an Everton fan feels, they must basically accept that resource wise they simply cannot challenge at the very top so their top expectation cannot be winning the top trophies, we aren’t like that.
Lastly, on the abuse point. It’s distasteful, but it’s a passionate situation, and we the fans are being given very limited opportunities to voice our displeasure. If you basically ban visual protest at the home games, the protest will take other forms. Those that showed the banner at WBA did it in exactly the right way, after the game and probably more powerfully after a win. I saw it described as crass but the banner could not be more polite if it tried. If the protests get ignored and the situation on the pitch doesn’t improve the tone will get worse as supporters are not going to let this lie. The club have created this situation and I am convinced it will get a lot uglier this season. If that is the price that has to be paid for the club to move forward then in my opinion it is worth the sacrifice of some action being distasteful.
I agree that Wenger will be there at the end of the season, but that is due to weak management at board level. Wenger will not achieve the stated goals from the start of the season but will not be accused of failure by the board. Therefore, only fan action can possibly bring about change and even then it will have to be a massive amount of action before either Wenger or the board reconsider their position. But the fans that feel like this should make every effort to make their voices heard, it is for the best long term interests of the team.
The mindset that our club has (getting into group stages is deemed as success) is what you would expect from a club from leagues like scotland/belgium etc where the likes of celtic and anderlecht would be just happy to be mixing with the big clubs and occasionly cause an upset.
This isnt a shit squad that le cock has at his disposal so it begs the question as to why they are performing so badly and we all know the answer to that. The media talk about our inability to close out a game and they point to a lack of defensive bodies as the reason for that failing, but they dont seem to recognise that someone like moaninho (c.unt 
